Motive power sharing during the 1950s

[RGeorge]

Would appreciate examples of motive power sharing between Roads during the 1950s (either steam or diesel), especialy in passenger service?

Also, any recommended articles/books?

Thanks.

[dehusman]

There wasn't as much in the 1950's as there is today.

The RDG and CNJ had pooled power in several runs from Jersey City to Allentown and Harrisburg.
The B&O ran its engines over teh RDG from Phillie to New York on the "Royal Blue".

Several railroads had pooled power, such as the "Texas Special" with pooled power on the MKT and SLSF, and the City trains with pooled UP/CNW power. The California Zephyr was CB&Q, DRGW and WP.

Dave H.

[doctorwayne]

I think that CNR and CPR pooled some trains east of Toronto. On the TH&B, you would often see locos from the TH&B itself or from its co-owners NYC and CPR, both on passenger or freight. This originated well before the '50s, and so included both steam and diesel. Unfortunately, what sticks out the most in my mind (I was a young kid in the early '50s) is the sight of lightening striped diesels and the double grey passenger cars. Steam was still commonplace: our house faced the tracks just east of the TH&B station in Hamilton, Ontario. I saw steam eveyday, but a diesel was a big deal. What a sqandered opportunity! Youth truly is wasted on the young.

Wayne

[hunter48820]

Hi RGeorge,
I know that Rock Island leased FT units from Great Northern in the mid 50s and later, for the increased traffic during the height of the produce shipping season. I have two A-B sets of FTs that I will run in three unit consists with RI units.

I also understand that there was very little runthough on most railroads as you would commonly find a little later on.

I wished there had been a little more since I'm modeling the mid 50s era.[V]

[nbrodar]

I know the BAR leased power out during it's down season. Mostly to the Pennsy.

Nick

[David_Telesha]

NH RS-3's were known to have worked on the LIRR and the B&M in passenger service...

There was an article in the NHRHTA Shoreliner magazine about "Strangers on the New Haven" which mentioned run foreign power on the NH for testing and other things.

[wjstix]

Yes probably more leasing or joint operations than power sharing like you'd have now. The DM&IR for example ran steam until 1960, but leased FT's and I think F-7's from GN, F-7's from B&LE (one was there long enough that it was re-lettered DMIR), RS-2's from the Union RR, and maybe some others. Plus the occassional demonstrator!!

The Northern Pacific and Soo Line operated the Cuyuna Iron Range (central MN) lines jointly, so it was common to see NP and Soo trains on the same lines. I guess occassionally you'd see NP engines and a Soo caboose or vice versa.

[jecorbett]

As the larger railroads dieselized, was it a common practice to sell or lease their steam power to smaller railroads that could not afford to fully dieselize, or did the steam power usually end up going straight to the scrap yard?

[nbrodar]

Jercorbett,

Both, the smaller more universal steamers often found second homes. The large behemoths tended to go right to the scrap line.

Nick

[wjstix]

One exception would be the US Steel railroads. Because the DM&IR was a seasonal railroad it was decided to dieselize their other roads first (like B&LE, EJ&E etc.) and send their steam engines to the Missabe. So after WW2 B&LE 2-10-4's came to the DMIR as did equally impressive Union Ry. 0-10-2's, many working on the Missabe til 1959-1960. They also bought some EJ&E 2-8-2's.

BTW during WW2 the Missabe sent some of it's 2-8-8-4's to the D&RGW during the winters. Later the Missabe bought some Rio Grande 2-8-2's, and in 1952 the Missabe "intercepted" a D&RGW 4-8-2 on it's way to I think the W&LE and used it for one ore season (or two?) still wearing Rio Grande lettering.

But as mentioned before, during this time the DMIR was also leasing diesels!!

[Anonymous]

The fact that steam locomotives operated only between division points before requiring extensive maintenance and round house time would work against "run throughs' as we think of them today. While there was extensive leasing of motive power between roads, the economics would give accountants today nightmares. Following the "leasing" of the T-1's to Pennsylvania, those engines were returned in such poor shape that they went directly to the scrap yards virtually run into the ground while Reading's home road T-1's still had some useful life left in them because of on line maintenance in Reading's shops. The reliability of the diesels that replaced steam, and the extended periods between maintenace leant themselves to the leasing and eventually todays pooled power. This was however a while in coming. The California Zephyer had dedicated power by each of its participants. The pooled cars of the train were run from coast to coast but each participating railroad supplied the locomotives for their share of the journey, with few run throughs of either WP, DRG&W, or CB&Q motive power.

In this time frame the presence of foreign power on the line was the execption rather than the rule, except for the short term leases to meet seasonal needs.
Will

[KOWENG110]

In the 1950s, at least two major roads pooled power with their subsidiaries. The SP and its SSW (Cotton Belt) subsidiary used each other's units as their own. MoP and its T&P subsidiary also freely used each other's power. I would guess there were other examples involving major roads and their subsidiaries/affiliates.
One interesting power pool existed between Kansas City and Fort Worth: EMD F units of the MoP, T&P, and KO&G operated through between the end points over the rails of all three roads. At the time, KO&G was independent of the MoP, but, unlike its black and red Geeps, KO&G's F units were painted blue and gray a la MoP.. I was a happy teen-aged eye witness to all of the above.
Bear

[Anonymous]

Check the Lehigh Valley and NW. I don't know when they set up run throughs power, but know they did. I am going to model LVRR as it was "THE" local RR where I grew up, not to mention my grandfather worked for them.

[Anonymous]

Milwaukee and UP pooled passenger power during the mid '50's after Milwaukee took over from C&NW on Omaha-Chicago portion of Cities' runs. The Atlanta & West Point and the Western of Alabama pooled power on the Crescent. CofG and Illinois Central pooled E units but this may have been a little later-CofG units in pool wore IC colors and green diamond. I think that there may have been some pooling of power between the NYC and the IC on the James Whitcomb Riley but I'm not really sure.
Here in Northern California I neve saw any pooling or sharing of power from 1951 to 1956 when I moved away. It would be interesting to hear other examples of this practice during that time.
sp3811

[Anonymous]

As mentioned earlier, The Missabe would lease out the Yellowstones in the winter to DRGW. How they got there I have never heard since routing the 2-8-8-4 from the factory was rather roundabout due to clearences. My guess would have them routed over the Northern Pacfic since they had similar sized engines and then maybe UP to Denver.

The Pennsy also leased ATSF 2-10-4's in 1958 to haul coal in Ohio. The main difference there was that the ATSF 5000's were oil burners so PRR had to provide oil fuel which was most likely Bunker C oil--fairly close to liquid tar used in asphalt roads.
These engines were used on the Sandusky line.

Moving on to the diesel era. UP & CB&Q pooled GP-7/9's on a run through from Chicago to points west. The NIckel Plate Road leased about 50 plus GP-9's from the C&O with Automatic Train Control(ATC) to implement dieselization on the Chicago Division, thereby making the fabulous Berkshires obsolete. The last regular steam run on the NKP Chicago Division was June of 1958

But remember the two rules of model railroading:
1. This is my layout and I will interpret it as I wish!
2. While discussion of layout building/design and prototypical operations are welcome, those that desire to object should refer back to Rule # !

Run Trains and Have Fun,

[JimValle]

During the 'Fifties the City of San Francisco had pooled E-units. They basically were painted in Union Pacific yellow and gray but ran over the C&NW, UP and SP from Chicago to Oakland. The logos of all three railroads were affixed to the front of the A units within a silver stripe, either horizontally or vertically arranged, and the units were lettered "City of San Francisco" in white letters on a red cartouche. See John Signor's "Southern Pacific's Western Division" for pictoral references. The rest of the train ran in UP yellow and gray but the uniformity of the consist began to break up in the early 'Sixties and the yellow diesels were replaced by SP "Bloody nose" units.

[laws0061]

I remember reading in one of my GN books that they shared power with the Q on their hotshot frieghts like the 401, 402 that ran from Seattle to Chicago. Also they used Q and GN power on the Empire Builder and Western Star. Also the Bee-Liner and the Texan from running through Laurel, MT and then south to Omaha on the Q used shared power.

The inside gateway in Oregon-Northern California was another example of shared power on the trains using SP&S, GN, WP and ATSF tracks and power.

I am not sure if these started in the Fifties or Sixties but they deisel made it possible because their design was more standard and the mechanical crews could maintain them because a SF FT is the same as GN FT were two Mikados from different railroads could be designed completely different. Today shared power is the standard. On the BNSF I would say maybe half the engine consists are pure BNSF power.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by doctorwayne

I think that CNR and CPR pooled some trains east of Toronto. On the TH&B, you would often see locos from the TH&B itself or from its co-owners NYC and CPR, both on passenger or freight. This originated well before the '50s, and so included both steam and diesel. Unfortunately, what sticks out the most in my mind (I was a young kid in the early '50s) is the sight of lightening striped diesels and the double grey passenger cars. Steam was still commonplace: our house faced the tracks just east of the TH&B station in Hamilton, Ontario. I saw steam eveyday, but a diesel was a big deal. What a sqandered opportunity! Youth truly is wasted on the young.

Wayne

Under a 1933 government act to limit competition with the struggling Canadian National during the depression years, the CPR and the CNR operated pool trains between Toronto and Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa and Montreal and Québec City. This pooled service applied until 1965. Services, revenues, expenditures and equipment were shared between the two companies. The cover photo of Omer Lavallée's "Canadian Pacific Steam Locomotives" shows a Montreal to Québec pool train headed by CPR 2814, a 4-6-4 Hudson, the consist being a mix of CP and CN heavy weight passenger cars, plus a new Budd-built CP dining car, part of the order for the CPR's "Canadian".

[wjstix]

There is a difference between railroads sharing power and trains of course !! For example, it's been mentioned that the UP used the CNW and later Milwaukee to reach Chicago. Early on there were some diesels used jointly - even had UP and CNW heralds on them - but pretty soon it ended up being UP using their own engines to take the cars west to Omaha and then handing the cars off to CNW or MILW who used their own diesels to run the UP cars to Chicago. MILW even painted their passenger diesels UP yellow !! Kinda like the California Zephyr on CBQ/DRGW/WP - each RR used their own power to pull the same passenger cars. (i.e. the engines changed, not the cars)

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

There were two power pools on Chicago-Florida trains that may go back to the 1950's. On the South Wind, PRR and ACL each contributed sets of E's which ran through between Chicago and Florida. On the City of Miami, Central of Georgia contributed two E8A's (811-812) which were painted in IC colors and ran with IC E's between Chicago and Columbus, GA.

[rrandb]

I beleive some of these may have contiued on to miami led by an FEC E unit. I also remember refernce to ACL units going to miami led by FEC unit.

[tomikawaTT]

Fond memory from the early '50's was a visit to the Long Island Railroad steam facility at Jamaica (I think. Accessable by subway, in any event.) The place was full of G-5s 4-6-0's, and a couple of 2-8-0's. All were obviously of PRR design, and some of them still had Pennsylvania letered on the tenders. Of course, PRR owned LIRR, but the direct connection between the two went underground in New Jersey and didn't re-surface until the Sunnyside Yard in Queens. That was electrified; third rail for the LIRR (to Penn Station) and catenary for the PRR. Not to mention that operating steam was absolutely forbidden in Manhattan.

I don't know if LIRR ever doubleheaded G-5s with different lettering (or doubleheaded at all - Long Island is pretty flat), but I wouldn't bet that it never happened.

[waltersrails]

All i know is B&O looked good during that time.