Coal Mining operations

[Anonymous]

My layout will host a coal mine (Walthers New River Mining) based on the Turtle Creek Central branchline project from earlier this year in MRR. I've been reading up on the carloading process at coal mines, and I can't find any 'dead end' type mine spurs like they did on the TCC branchline.

Most of what I'm finding says prototype operations would either have a long loop for continuous loading of cars (like the western coal flood loaders), or a small yard that would slope downward toward the coal loading bays. When the cars were ready to be loaded, either a winchline or a tractor would start the cars rolling down the slope so they would be loaded as they rolled along down the hill, and then they would come to rest in a 'loaded' yard or tracks where they would be picked up when enough cars to build a train were ready.

My question is... is the TCC branchline dead end spurs mine trackage in ANY way consistent with ANY kind of known eastern appalachian coal mines that 'might' still be operating between 1980 and the present?

I want to design a coal mine that would produce about 18 HO carloads per operating session that would be switched out by the local mine switcher. I was thinking of either, A) designing the mine very similar to the TCC branchline mine, but with 3 loading tracks instead of two, and using the switcher to 'shove' the cars under the bays as they're 'loaded', loading one track at a time (very unprototypical, because you'd have three loading bays, but only one bay loading at a time, thus no real use for the other two bays) or B) redesign the mine tracks much longer so that the cars can be shoved to the end of the spur, then (insert imagination here) 'rolled' by gravity down through the loading bays, coming to a rest at the end of each yard track where the local switcher would pick them up and assemble them into an outbound train.

The only other thing I could come up with is a very tight loop (22" radius) that I might be able to do a continuous loop loading, but again, I'd only need one, maybe two bays, not all three. I want to make it look like the mine is using all three bays to load. What's the most prototypical way of doing this?

Does anyone have a link to some information or pictures of modern coal loading operations from the appalachian mountains? Any pics especially would help me get a better idea of what would look real and what wouldn't. Thanks!

Jeremy

[dehusman]

Smaller mines were configured like the TCC, but the way any coal mine works is to have the 1/2 the track above the mine and 1/2 below the mine. So if you have 3 tracks under the new River Mine, put the mine in the middle of the 3 tracks. If the tracks are 5 cars long then put the mine in the middle so you can spot 3 cars on each track (one under the tipple and 2 above on each track). When they are loaded you will end up with 2 loads below the mine and one load under the tipple.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

Perfect! That's what I was hoping to hear! I've got it configured now (in my plans) for 6 carlength spurs, but that's from the yard limit to the bumper, so I'll just extend the length of the spurs to be a total of 11 carlengths (5 more than what I have now), and do just what you said. Spot the #1 car under the tipple, with the other 5 above the mine, and when they're loaded, the #1 car will be at the yard limit, and the #6 will be under the tipple. That way I still get a total of 18 cars 'loaded'. Now the question is... what % grade should I make the 'slope' to the lower portion of the loading yard? I would want it noticeable enough that when looking at it, you can see that it's slanted down to the mine, but small enough to be able to park the cars when the loco first spots them.

Oh the possibilities. :-D

[cefinkjr]

[tup] You've got the general idea. I've seen model coal mines stuck at the end of the spur(s) and they really look ridiculous !! Wonder how the modeler thinks any more than one car per spur would ever get loaded.

As to the grade under the tipple and into the loaded yard, the prototype would use a very slight grade -- probably less than 1/2%. The real problem in the prototype is stopping the car once you've got it rolling. Derails at the lower end of the loaded yard (you are going to put derails down there, aren't you?) work but that tends to be a little messy.

If the 1/2% isn't visually enough for you (it probably won't be), you might try gluing very soft brush bristles between the rails to catch the axles and slow or stop rolling cars. The bristles can be disguised as weeds if you don't plant them in nice tidy rows.

But how are you planning to roll these hoppers in the first place? And are you going to stand there uncoupling loaded cars and moving the next empty into place? And how are you going to load them? All of these can be done automatically but you're talking about a pretty major job.

Most of us are satisfied with spotting the empties above the tipple and, between operating sessions, replacing the empty cars with loads to be picked up by the next mine run (before it spots more empties).

This whole discussion, though, makes you think that maybe pairing your mine with a consumer of coal through the scenery somehow is worth the extra planning.

Chuck

[dehusman]

That's clearance point, not yard limit by the way. "Yard Limit" has a specific meaning in railroading .

I would make it flat. Then I would cut a slot dow the middle of the tracks. I would put a belt with a single pin or tooth sticking up from it under the track. A slow motion motor would move the belt along, when the pin reached the top side it would sitick out far enough above the rails to engage the axle of one of the cars and shove the whole cut very slowly under the tipple. the end of the belt would be spaced so when the 6th car was under the tipple the pin woul go around the end pulley and disengage the axle and go under the layout out of the way. Then the belt could be turned off. By using a slow motion motor it could take over an hour for the 6 cars to inch down.
The alternative is to put a cable driven "barney" behind the cars, a little four wheel "bumper" that would hit the axles or coupler and pu***he car down 6 lengths and then go back to the end of the track.

I would not rely on gravity.

Dave H

[coalminer3]

There were (and are) all sorts of ways to move cars around at load outs. It can be done by gravity as some have mentioned or by car pullers. In general, as others have suggested, you pu***he mt's through and then load them one at a time allowing gravity to help. Sometimes, depending on the operation, you can have different sizes of coal loaded on different tracks at the load out.

Gravity, in the real world, can be dangerous as, in many cases, you have a person riding the end of the cut to handle the braking. In our terriotory these folks are called "car droppers." It's not so much the starting of the cut that's the problem, it's what can happen when you try and stop things. IOW you can be "all dressed up with no place to go."

Mine shifters afford great opportunities for operations as you "pull and supply" cars at various mines on the shifter's route. Also sometimes you see coal brought in from other mines to a cleaning plant. This can be done by rail or by truck.

You might want to check out the photo section of the C&O Historical Society's website; it'll give you some good examples of the real thing.

work safe

[Anonymous]

Well, my plan was to spot the empties at the top of the grade, with the first car to be loaded on each track under the tipple. Using 'imagination' the cars would be loaded between operating sessions.

IOW, at the beginning of the session, I'd move out any loads, replace them with cuts of empties above the tipple on the grade (the grade really wouldn't be much of a grade, since the consensus seems to be 1/2% or so, which in HO would be impractically small anyway and very difficult to see), so the empties would be spotted above the mine (first car in each cut under the tipple) and left there until the end of the operating session. When the session was over, or before beginning the next session, I would move the cars below the tipple, and place one piece 'drop in' loads in each car. So when I officially started the next operating session, the cars would be 'loaded' and ready to be hauled back out.

I really don't think I'll get as dramatic as to actually simulate the rolling of the cars and the loading procedures, that's a bit beyond the scope of what I hope to accomplish. I just want a prototypical looking mine setup as far as the tracks were concerned, because, as cefinkjr said, "model coal mines stuck at the end of the spur(s) and they really look ridiculous !! Wonder how the modeler thinks any more than one car per spur would ever get loaded."

Thanks for all the advice guys!

[peterjenkinson1956]

dont forget that the 3 or 4 chutes / tracks at the loader may be for different size coal..... ps coalminer 3 where did you work.. i am a coalminer in australia...peter

[coalminer3]

Hi Peter:

Based out of Raleigh County, West Virginia. Surrounded by what used to be the C&O, N&W, and VGN with the old B&O not that far away. Are you in NSW or elsewhere?

work safe

[peterjenkinson1956]

lo lo coalminer 3... i live in MACKAY central Queensland.. been coalmining for 25 years now.. only work part time now..4 - 6 months a year ( by choice) work as a mine supervisor... i am building a 30 "x 20" railroad CSX ..lots of coal trains.... peter

[videomaker]

Peter,
I live in the states and am also modeling a western coal mining operation.Can you tell me what kinds of other bldgs I need to go w/the flood loader? I have an old UP calender photo Im going by to do my model.. there are all kinds of support bldgs(for lack of a better word) around the loader..A vehicle mtnce bldg and smaller loaders and what looks like a natural gas plant for ? Maybe a dryer? Thanks for any help...Videomaker

[Anonymous]

On the Maryland & West Virginia, I had numerous tipples and loaders. You ALWAYS have to leave room to push cars beyond the chutes. In your case, with three tracks and desiring an 18 car capacity you need to have roughly (for 50's era like me anyway) 42" inches or MORE beyond the tipple chute. (7" per car x 6 cars) More room is required for longer modern cars. Good luck.

Ed Sumner

[Anonymous]

Here's a web site for you, Jeremy, with lots of good information on the Appalachian coal roads: http://appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/

And here are a couple articles from that web site you'll find handy: http://appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/abcsofcoalloaders.html and http://appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/mineruns.html. In the latter article's illustrations, note the location of the tipples (not "mines"; mines can be several hundred yards or more away from a tipple).

[Anonymous]

Also....www.coalcampusa.com

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Another method of moving cars that was suggested in coalminer's post was mine shifters. Remote control switchers rebuilt from old Alco switchers with no cab and a small Cummins engine in the radiator section are used in Appalachian mines and would provide an additional visual interest to your mine.

[peterjenkinson1956]

hello video maker... sorry for slow answer... try useing pikestuff buildings for modern mine structures out west, and for most modern mines... pikestuff make some very good building kits very easy to build and look good when painted and detailed.. buildings in use at most mines are... main office , wash / cap house, electrical room, fan house if underground mine, haulage room if underground mine and a workshop / storeroom (usually combined) also make sure you have a mines rescue building.... the main thing with an underground mine is not to put any buildings opposite the tunnel portals (blast zone ).. ... ps the gas plant could be a methane drainage plant.. the methane gas(ch4 coal gas ) the stuff in coal that goes bang. is drained from the coal seam and dried it can then be used to produce power ( 400meg watt at one mine ).. liquified and used as fuel in trucks .. or simply vented to atmosphere ( wasted )... thanks peter

[peterjenkinson1956]

lo lo wvm nut... thanks for the great link put it in favorites for future reading... thanks peter

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Check this photo link for a remote controlled switcher used at a mine.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=120258

Note the truck-size diesel in the radiator area