It's pretty common knowledge that solid trains of tank cars were run from the Southwest, primarily Texas and Oklahoma, to the Northeast during World War II because of German submarines operating in the Gulf of Mexico and off the Atlantic coast. However, I have some questions about the details of this traffic.
ChuckAllen, TX
cefinkjrWhen were the first oil trains run?
1800's in Pennsylvania. If you are talking about WW2, then 1942 or so.
With what frequency did oil trains run?
As needed. That could be a dozen trains a day, BUT they were being operated by different railroads on different routes from multiple origins to multiple destinations. The origin area was a 1/5 to 1/4 the US going to and area about 1/6 the US so there was no one route they traveled.
Did oil trains handle only crude oil or was refined petroleum (gasoline, Diesel fuel, "bunker" oil fuel for ships, etc.) also handled?
If refined petroleum was also handled, was it handled in the same train as crude oil?
Were there some instances where large blocks of tank cars were handled in the same trains as other priority freight?
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
cefinkjr It's pretty common knowledge that solid trains of tank cars were run from the Southwest, primarily Texas and Oklahoma, to the Northeast during World War II because of German submarines operating in the Gulf of Mexico and off the Atlantic coast. However, I have some questions about the details of this traffic.
Cotton Belt also handled solid oil trains from Louisiana and Southwest Arkansas to a pipeline in Wyatt, Missouri. The crude was then piped to a barge transloading facility at Birds Point, MO for movement to Mt. Vernon, IN and another pipeline move to Ohio refineries. A yard was created in Wyatt in May 1941, so that was pre-war. The oil trains became a daily operation by mid 1942 and continued after the war at a lower train frequency. See Fred Frailey's book Blue Streak Merchandise, page 22, for a paragraph about Cotton Belt's oil trains.
Cotton Belt's oil trains operated on the mainline to Malden, Missouri and then were handled in smaller blocks of cars up the Wyatt Branch by very light steam locomotives operating on 56 pound rail.
Ed in Kentucky
dehusmanThe origin area was a 1/5 to 1/4 the US going to and area about 1/6 the US so there was no one route they traveled.
Not quite sure what you meant by this sentence but I had read somewhere that multiple routes were used, some of them being kind of bizarre in that they seemed to take the long way between two points. This was partly a matter of security but also a way to move these trains as quickly as possible with very heavy traffic.
Two points concerning "priority traffic" though. First, not many automobiles were handled at all between 1942 and 1945 ("There's a war on, doncha know." was a common excuse for not being able to buy lots of things, from meat to razors to tires to automobiles). Second, oil and all petroleum products were "priority traffic" along with everything else needed to support the war effort. Even coal and coke for steel mills was priority traffic although most of that in the Pittsburgh area was by river (Dad was engineer on a steamboat moving coal from WV mines to Pittsburgh mills).
The "Big Inch" crude oil pipeline was planned before we entered the war, but the steel was not available. After the war started, the pipeline was started from Texas and reached Illinois, starting pumping on New Years Eve 1942. Crude oil went from there to the east coast by rail. The line was completed to the Phily area by Aug 1943. Eventually the "Little Big Inch" refined product pipeline was completed in Mar 1944.
Thanks for the dates, Mike. I recall my parents talking about both the Big Inch and the Little Big Inch when I was a kid but didn't know when they actually went into service. If the Little Big Inch wasn't completed until March of 1944, then a model railroad set in 1943 in Western Pennsylvania could realistically handle both crude oil trains and trains carrying refined product for loading in tankers bound for Europe.
cefinkjrNot quite sure what you meant by this sentence
The largest oil producing areas were in Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma and Kansas. The larget oil refining areas other than the gulf Coast were on the eastern seaboard, along the Mid-Atlantic states. Those would be the routes that would be sugbject to U-Boat attack. Oil going from Texas to Missouri would not be subject to U-Boat attack.
While oil from Texas to Missouri was probably carried by rail, it wasn't diverted from ship to rail (other than possibly being barged up the Mississipi).
dehusman While oil from Texas to Missouri was probably carried by rail, it wasn't diverted from ship to rail (other than possibly being barged up the Mississippi).
While oil from Texas to Missouri was probably carried by rail, it wasn't diverted from ship to rail (other than possibly being barged up the Mississippi).
There were u-boats in the gulf.
rrebell There were u-boats in the gulf.
Yes, the gulf was swarming with U-Boats. A lot of oil for the war effort also came from South America.
In 1939 when WWII started the Canadian Navy fought many battles with U-Boats in the Gulf of St. Lawrence as supply ships would be leaving from ports upriver. I had an Uncle that was second in command of a corvette and saw a lot of action in and around the St. Lawrence with subs reported as far up the river as Baie Comeau.
My Grandfather ran the roundhouse in Winnipeg at the start of WWII ( Canada declared war on Germany on September 9, 1939) and he would say that almost overnight the rail traffic flowing in from the U.S. bringing supplies to help the war effort overwhelmed the railroads. He would say that his once shiny locomotives never saw another bath until the war ended.
Canada had much more refining capacity than it had oil production at the outbreak of hostilities and oil trains ran North from the U.S. to the refineries North of the border, trains then took refined product East to ports on the St. Lawrence and on the East coast.
East coast ports were heavily guarded by the RCN and RCAF with anti-sub nets across the entrances to the ports. U-boats could often be spotted from the shoreline just waiting for the next convoy to depart.
I have read some interesting books that told about U-Boats venturing upriver to drop spies off. These spies would make their way to places like Quebec city and report on convoy departures.
Some 4000 ships were sunk between 1939 and 1945 in the Atlantic. From the high Arctic to the tip of South America the coastline was covered in oil.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Oil movements from the gulf coast to the atlantic coast refineries would have been subject to the U-boat threat.
Movements from Texas or Louisiana to Missouri or the Ohio River would not. Yes, they were oil trains that ran in WW2, but there were not oil trains that were operated instead of water movements to avoid U-boats.
BATMAN A lot of oil for the war effort also came from South America.
My dad was home from college and had marked back up from being on furlough to being available on the fireman's extra board at the Louisiana and Arkansas's Greenville TX roundhouse. Breakfast that morning was interupted by the call boy from the roundhouse. It was Monday, December 8, 1941. Grandddad was already at work at the roundhouse, when Dad was called for an extra that morning. Grandma made up a meal for his lunch pail and filled his thermos with coffee while dad changed into his "office clothes". On reporting in, the trainmaster called the crew together and told them they were going to be running the fastest hot shot ever run by the L&A. The Army Air Force at Barksdale Field. LA was screaming for a shipment of AvGas they were due and guess where it was parked? Hunt Yard, Greenville TX - see those tank cars over there? The ones the switcher is putting your caboose on? They were told they were being given absolute priority over everything else on the road. Once they cleared yard limits, the dispatcher was going to put everything east of Greenville in the hole and the section gangs had been told to spike all the turnouts shut once the other trains were in the clear, police would be notified to shut down level crossings. They were to run as fast as they dared - ignore posted speed limits - and get to Shreveport by yesterday. Any questions? What's our power? All the modern 2-8-2's were elsewhere, so they had drawn a low wheeled Russian Decapod, built for the LAST war. Dad had the pops sizzling as they coupled up, got an "OK" for the standing brake check and the signal on the track turned to "go". The Mexican-American head brakeman crossed himself and asked for forgiveness for last Saturday Night's transgressions against heaven. When the caboose cleared the yard lead, they got a "High Ball" from the rear end. The engineman pulled down his goggles, turned his cap backwards, and yelled to dad, "Hold on, boy! Just keep her hot!" Then he yanked the throttle wide open while hooking up on the reverse gear. Dad did "keep her hot" as they tore across East Texas like a second coming of Halley's Comet. Dad had no idea of how fast they were rolling, the locomotive had no speed recorder, but the flanges were squealing in protest and the engine was rocking on the curves. He had the firing valve wide open and the gun running continuously to replenish the water supply. Occasionanly, he would go back on the rocking tender and get a scoop of sand from a bucket. He'd then open the peep hole in the fire door and the draft would pull the sand off the scoop through the firebox and down the flues to scour them of built up carbon. The result resembled a destroyer laying down a smoke screen to conceal a battleship (dad would get to see that spectacle out in the Pacific a couple of years later). Sooner than anyone could quite believe, they were on the outskirts of Shreveport and the towerman brought them through the station on the passenger main. One of the 2-8-2's was sitting on the track ahead of them. They were flagged to a stop, cut off, and sent down a sidetrack, the turnout closed, and the new engine backed down, coupled up and began pumping up the brake pressure. As they rolled into the arrivals track at the roundhouse, it was accelerating south into darkest Louisiana. Dad and the rest of the crew marked off, grabbed their grips, headed for the showers and changed into their street clothes. Dad grabbed a seat outside the roundhouse to open his lunch pail, but his engineman stopped him. "Close your lunch pail, son. You did a good job today...and so did I. So i'm buying us steak dinners at the best place in town. Some place where they don't enforce Rule G"
BEAUSABRE My dad was home from college and had marked back up from being on furlough to being available on the fireman's extra board at the Louisiana and Arkansas's Greenville TX roundhouse. --------------------------
My dad was home from college and had marked back up from being on furlough to being available on the fireman's extra board at the Louisiana and Arkansas's Greenville TX roundhouse. --------------------------
Fantastic story.
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
BEAUSABREMy dad was home from college and had marked back up from being on furlough to being available on the fireman's extra board at the Louisiana and Arkansas's Greenville TX roundhouse...
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
"Rule G is a prohibition against railroad employees working while intoxicated. It was originally a near-universal provision of individual railroads' operating rules, and is now part of the universal code of the Association of American Railroads.
In addition to prohibiting the use or possession of drugs and alcohol, the rule also provides for "reasonable suspicion", wherein a rail carrier may require an employee to submit to a breathalyzer or urine test if he is suspected of being under the influence. A refusing employee is considered to be in violation and may be suspended or terminated with no further procedure"
Or as we used to say in the Army, "No smoking eight hours before flight, no drinking within 100 feet of the aircraft"
Dad said his principle worry - besides the obvious one of sailing off the rails at a misjudged curve - was that they might hit an errant stear. Of the unfortunate animal's fate there was no doubt - it and its odiferous contents would come down somewhere in Oklahoma. But what would happen to the train? The remains of an entire train of 100 octane AvGas that derailed, wouldn't be worth collecting (The first facility to produce 100/130 octane gasoline, Esso's Bayway (NJ) Refinery began production in late Autumn 1939 and soon tankers' full were headed for Britain. Unfortunately, too late for the British to modify their engines for the Battle of France in May-Jume 1940, but the Luftwaffe couldn't figure out the sudden jump in performance of the Royal Air Force's Hurricanes and Spitfires in the Battle of Britain (August-September). By the end of the war, advanced piston engines were demanding 100/130, 108/135, and 115/145 octane (The first number is the octane rating at a lean mixture, and the second number is the octane rating at a rich mixture), As a Chemical Engineering Major, he was well aware of developments in this field)
The idea of encountering a farmer pulling a wagon load of hay with his tractor at his private crossing was unthinkable....
dehusman Oil movements from the gulf coast to the atlantic coast refineries would have been subject to the U-boat threat. Movements from Texas or Louisiana to Missouri or the Ohio River would not. Yes, they were oil trains that ran in WW2, but there were not oil trains that were operated instead of water movements to avoid U-boats.
You seem to be disputing that railroads carried oil from Texas to Northeastern refineries. Here is an article that says costal tankers were reassigned to trans-Atlantic duty, while trains carried their former domestic oil flow:
https://www.nist.gov/blogs/taking-measure/big-inch-fueling-americas-wwii-war-effort
Here is a PRR poster showing how they actually did help to replace the costal tankers:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401811791836
A photo:
https://www.loc.gov/item/2017839323/
MidlandMikeYou seem to be disputing that railroads carried oil from Texas to Northeastern refineries.
Not at all, don't know where you would get that.
Aprox 100 tankers were sunk in the gulf of Mexico, some off the Louisiana coast.
dehusman ... Yes, they were oil trains that ran in WW2, but there were not oil trains that were operated instead of water movements to avoid U-boats.
...
Yes, they were oil trains that ran in WW2, but there were not oil trains that were operated instead of water movements to avoid U-boats.
I don't know how to interpret the above sentence, other than you are saying oil trains were not operated to avoid U-boats
MidlandMikeI don't know how to interpret the above sentence, other than you are saying oil trains were not operated to avoid U-boats
In context: Oil trains from wells in TEXAS to refineries in MISSOURI were NOT operated to avoid U BOATS.
As I said at least three times before, oil from the Gulf Coast to refineries in the Mid Atlantic states WERE operated to avoid U-Boats. Oil was also moved by rail or barge prior to the U-Boat threat.
dehusman In context: Oil trains from wells in TEXAS to refineries in MISSOURI were NOT operated to avoid U BOATS. As I said at least three times before, oil from the Gulf Coast to refineries in the Mid Atlantic states WERE operated to avoid U-Boats. Oil was also moved by rail or barge prior to the U-Boat threat.
Moving oil to refineries located in the center of the United States would avoid all Uboats. It would be cheaper to move oil from the south central states to refineries in the central part of the states. Specifically oil moved to the east coast would be used there or exported for the war effort.
What oil refineries in Missouri are you talking about? The only one I know of for sure operating during WWII was at Sugar Creek, just east of Kansas City.
I've read/heard from a couple of sources that a big problem with the seaborn oil shipments was that virtually all US cities refused to have a blackout during the war. A U-Boat could sit off the coast of a big eastern city and wait for a ship to pass between them and the city; the city lights clearly outlined the ship and made it an easy target.
Here is a photo of the N&W hauling oil up the Shenandoah Valley during the war. This was taken at the north end of Cloverdale passing siding, a few miles north of Roanoke, Va.
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SSW9389 What oil refineries in Missouri are you talking about? The only one I know of for sure operating during WWII was at Sugar Creek, just east of Kansas City.
These refineries. There are also refineries and chemical plants around St Louis.
SSW9389 Cotton Belt ran solid 60 car trains of crude oil from Louisiana and southwest Arkansas to Wyatt, Missouri during WWII. The crude oil was barged up the Ohio River from Birds Point Missouri to Mt. Vernon, Indiana. At Mt. Vernon the oil was pipelined to five Sohio refineries in Ohio. There was a large oil refinery that expanded its operations at Catlettsburg, Kentucky during WWII. Ed in Kentucky
Cotton Belt ran solid 60 car trains of crude oil from Louisiana and southwest Arkansas to Wyatt, Missouri during WWII. The crude oil was barged up the Ohio River from Birds Point Missouri to Mt. Vernon, Indiana. At Mt. Vernon the oil was pipelined to five Sohio refineries in Ohio.
BigJim Here is a photo of the N&W hauling oil up the Shenandoah Valley during the war. This was taken at the north end of Cloverdale passing siding, a few miles north of Roanoke, Va.
What a great photo. Thanks for posting.
Rich
Alton Junction
BATMANSome 4000 ships were sunk between 1939 and 1945 in the Atlantic. From the high Arctic to the tip of South America the coastline was covered in oil.
When I was a kid on the Jersey Shore back in the 1960's like most kids on the beach I'd do some digging in the sand. Every once in a while I'd hit a layer of a black, tarry substance and always wondered what it was. It certainly wasn't sewage and there seemed no reason for it to be there.
It wasn't until years later I learned what I was finding was oil that drifted ashore from ships sunk by U-Boots during the war. Literally the "ghosts" of those long-dead tankers.
General Norman Schwartzkopf was a kid on the Jersey Shore back in the 1940's and remembered seeing ships burning miles offshore.