I'm trying to determine the prototypical car routing for cars from the Northern Pacific or Great Northern in upper Minnesota to the Southern Pacific. The Southern Pacific connects with both the Northern Pacific and Great Northern in Portland, Oregon. However, since the NP and GN jointly owned the Spokane, Portland & Seattle; would they have routed the cars from Spokane to Portland via the SP&S even though that "shorts: their route? The SP&S is definately the shortest route from Spokane to Portland and avoids having to cross the Cascade Mountains.
Another possibility for the GN, is to route via the SP&S from Spokane to Wishram, Washington, and then to Bend on the Overland Trunk to GN's own line from Bend to Klamath Fall, Oregon. According to this link to Lindsay Korst's Great Northern pages, (http://www.gngoat.org/inside_gateway.htm) the GN had trackage rights, all the way to Klamath Falls with a portion from Chemult Junction to Klamath Falls on the Southern Pacific. So, would the "interchange" with the SP have been at Klamath Falls, or Chemult Junction?
Thoughts?
Ray
a couple of rules of thumb. if the origination point is on your railroad you want to use your car if possible. Secondly you want as much mileage as possible on your railroad. so take 3 locations a,b, and c. you could transfer at the origination location at a. or you could take the car to b and hand it over for delivery to c which is not on your railroad. Even if your track between a and b is a longer route.
Shippers do have a choice of routing their business, if they so choose. If you look in this link Sample AHW Waybills (greenbayroute.com) at the box for routing, there is a place to show if it's the route was specified by the shipper or the railroad agent.
A shipper might specify a routing of GN (or NP) Minneapolis CNW Council Bluffs UP Ogden SP or GN/NP Minneapolis CRIP Tucumcari SP. If the routing was done by the railroad's agent, then they would want to maximize their company's earnings and would route it to give it the biggest slice of the pie possible. Depending on how the divisions of the joint rates were set up, there may be times when that might not mean traveling the most miles on the originating road.
Jeff
Colorado RayHowever, since the NP and GN jointly owned the Spokane, Portland & Seattle; would they have routed the cars from Spokane to Portland via the SP&S even though that "shorts: their route? The SP&S is definately the shortest route from Spokane to Portland and avoids having to cross the Cascade Mountains.
The why would NP and GN have jointly built the SP&S if they did not plan to use it?
MidlandMikeThe why would NP and GN have jointly built the SP&S if they did not plan to use it?
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
I stand corrected. At least Wikipedia states clearly that SP&S was a joint venture of NP and GN "to build" a rail line... .
Beats me why the North Bank line wasn't built simply as an extension of GN or NP, since Hill owned them both. Maybe it had something to do with wanting to keep from alarming the Union Pacific?
While Hill controlled both companies (and by extension, the Burlington) he had to keep them as seperate companies because of anti-trust laws (Northern Securities Case).
Where is the car going? "To the SP" is kinda vague. If it is going to Houston, they won't haul the car to the Pacific coast.
Routes are specified by junction points, they can be set by the shipper (or consignee) or by the railroad if a route isn't specified by the customer. Railroads chose junction points to maximize their haul and to make it easier on them for interchange. A railroad can use a different interchange than the one designated for their own convienience (the waybill route is used for revenue).
For example the UP has modern day routing guides that show what gateway is used depending on origin and destination. While this is modern, the railroads of yesterday would have had something similar as a default. They would have wanted the highest volume junction to cut costs.
UP: Interline Routing Agreements
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman Where is the car going? "To the SP" is kinda vague. If it is going to Houston, they won't haul the car to the Pacific coast. Routes are specified by junction points, they can be set by the shipper (or consignee) or by the railroad if a route isn't specified by the customer. Railroads chose junction points to maximize their haul and to make it easier on them for interchange. A railroad can use a different interchange than the one designated for their own convienience (the waybill route is used for revenue). For example the UP has modern day routing guides that show what gateway is used depending on origin and destination. While this is modern, the railroads of yesterday would have had something similar as a default. They would have wanted the highest volume junction to cut costs. UP: Interline Routing Agreements
In the scenario I was looking at, the destination would be in Southern California.
The SP had favored connections that I am aware of with the Rock Island at Tucumcari, NM, The UP and D&RGW at Ogden, UT, the Texas & Pacific at El Paso, The L&N and Southern at New Orleans, and the Milwaukee, SP&S and Northern Pacific at Portland, OR. I'm not sure relative to the Great Northern and the various mid-Texas connections.
If it has to go on the GN or NP out of Minneapolis, the only viable route is via Portland and the SP.
More likely it would go Omaha on one of a couple railroads, then UP to Socal and the SP or UP to Ogden, then SP to Socal. That route is 500 miles shorter. Since railroads are not paid by the mile, a significantly shorter route is more profitable.
A car starting in "upper" (I assume you mean "northern") Minnesota and going to California could be routed west on NP or GN to SP&S then SP. But just as likely it would go south to the Twin Cities and be taken southwest from there on CGW, Rock Island, or C&NW/Omaha to be handed off to maybe UP or Santa Fe.
ndbprrif the origination point is on your railroad you want to use your car if possible.
While, yes, it would be nice to send outbound loads in your own cars, in practice, you want to get rid of other railroads' cars first. A foreign car earns per diem charges while sitting idle on your tracks. You want inbound loaded cars emptied quickly and either loaded with a suitable commodity headed in the direction of the car's home road, or you want to grab that empty and get it on an interchange track in the general direction of its home road as quickly as possible.
More info:https://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/p/192765/2110205.aspx
ndbprr a couple of rules of thumb. if the origination point is on your railroad you want to use your car if possible.
a couple of rules of thumb. if the origination point is on your railroad you want to use your car if possible.
Actually it's exactly the opposite.
If you have a "foreign" empty, it's better to send it back with a revenue load than to haul it back empty which earns you no profit.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
I've never worried about where, why, or how a foreign-road car made it's way to my layout...I simply look for it's box on the shelving under my staging yards, then place the car on the track, and pick a destination to send it to. That might be on-layout, or somewhere beyond my layout, which eventually gets that car back in it's box, and on it's way "home".
Even as a four-year-old, I always enjoyed seeing foreign road cars mixed in with those of the TH&B, CPR, and CNR, as there was a constant parade of them right across the street from my home.
Wayne
cv_acrIf you have a "foreign" empty, it's better to send it back with a revenue load than to haul it back empty which earns you no profit.
We have industries that bring in loads in many different RR boxcars (private and RR-owned), but they can only load home system cars by agreement. So even if they have 15 boxcars on site and empty, they can only load up cars owned by the RR that they sit on (or shared pool cars llike TBOXes). Sometimes they have to bring those cars in empty, despite having a full track of empties. I don't know how common that is, but at least 2 of our boxcar industries are like that.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmannWe have industries that bring in loads in many different RR boxcars (private and RR-owned), but they can only load home system cars by agreement.
Pre-Staggers (pre-1980's) not at all common. Post-Staggers, more common. The key word is "agreement". The industry probably has a special rate agreement with the railroad that if they use home road cars they get a better rate. Pre-Staggers would have been on a tariff rate.
We had an industry that had a better rate if they shipped in SP "Golden West" boxcars. Same thing.
Must be a really better rate, because it's rare they load non-system cars. Like maybe 2x I've ever seen rare.
doctorwayne I've never worried about where, why, or how a foreign-road car made it's way to my layout...I simply look for it's box on the shelving under my staging yards, then place the car on the track, and pick a destination to send it to. That might be on-layout, or somewhere beyond my layout, which eventually gets that car back in it's box, and on it's way "home". Even as a four-year-old, I always enjoyed seeing foreign road cars mixed in with those of the TH&B, CPR, and CNR, as there was a constant parade of them right across the street from my home. Wayne
The reason I'm interested in this is that I have an Excel based workbook that prints out replica waybills which include the car routing via railroad and interchange point. The data entry for each waybill includes the full routing from shipper to receiver and includes "junction stamps" for each interchange. In lieu of a true stamp the program prints the railroad logo in the stamp box. For an incoming load, you can see the full routing and all the railroads that handled the car. Loads out show the proposed routing with no stamps.