In the transition era, how were freight trains in the Northeast (NYC, Reading, B&M, etc.), generally identified? My feeling is that they were ID'd by origin and destination yard symbols, not spcific city ID's. I think there were also specialized ID's. such as the Alpha Jets on the Alphabet Route.
Thanks to all for any info.
Symbols are purely railroad-dependent.
Many railroads' symbols matched the schedule numbers.
Other railroads used coded alpha symbols. These systems are unique to each railroad. I don't know when any particular railroad started using these sorts of symbol systems.
Marketing and/or unofficial names may also be given but are NOT official symbols used in any capacity by operations.
"Alpha Jet" sounds like a nickname, not a symbol.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
WestIslandRon In the transition era, how were freight trains in the Northeast (NYC, Reading, B&M, etc.), generally identified? My feeling is that they were ID'd by origin and destination yard symbols, not spcific city ID's. I think there were also specialized ID's. such as the Alpha Jets on the Alphabet Route.
The RDG used a 2-3 letter alpha code for the train symbol, such as AD for Allentown to Darby Creek, and WR for Wilmington, DE to Reading.
Other railroads used other codes. Some used numbers, some used alpha codes, suome used a combination of the two. It varies by railroad and can vary by time with trains added and subtracted as the traffic changed.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I was going to use the first letter of the origin city and the first letter of the destination city followed by a number indicating which train on the route each day. For example the first Buffalo-Franklinton freight symbol would be BF1. Then I saw what the second Franklinton-Utica freight symbol would be.
cv_acr"Alpha Jet" sounds like a nickname, not a symbol.
Both, in a sense. The Alpha Jets were symboled as AJ-x.
John-NYBWfreight symbol would be BF1
Conrail already used that BF-1 as part of EN-BF1, Enola to Buffalo Frontier yard.
maxman John-NYBW freight symbol would be BF1 Conrail already used that BF-1 as part of EN-BF1, Enola to Buffalo Frontier yard.
John-NYBW freight symbol would be BF1
My railroad is set in 1956 so I had it first.
NittanyLion cv_acr "Alpha Jet" sounds like a nickname, not a symbol. Both, in a sense. The Alpha Jets were symboled as AJ-x.
cv_acr "Alpha Jet" sounds like a nickname, not a symbol.
I don't remember them being called anything but "Apollo 1" and "Apollo 2" (even though the 'overflow' traffic above 50 cars for Apollo 2 was shifted to "LV-2" going to Oak Island by late summer 1974 or so, so LV did use 2-letter abbreviations for regular fast 'merchandise' trains...)
Someone might confirm this, but there was said to have been an "Apollo 2X" that ran Sundays if there was enough priority TOFC that day to merit it.
For your reference if you please:
http://www.multimodalways.org/docs/railroads/RRorgs/AAR/AAR%20Names%20and%20Nicknames%20of%20Freight%20Trains%202-1952.pdf
Cheers, Ed
John-NYBW For example the first Buffalo-Franklinton freight symbol would be BF1. Then I saw what the second Franklinton-Utica freight symbol would be.
The old Arlow Guthrie song lyric. "Passing trains that have no name."
Symbol freight are not listed in timetables? I know the PRR used the lead locomotive number in some of if not all train designations in the steam era.
Pete.
wrench567 Symbol freight are not listed in timetables? I know the PRR used the lead locomotive number in some of if not all train designations in the steam era.
There are two different schedules. A timetable schedule grants authority on the main track. A service schedule does not, the train operates as an extra train. In both cases the train may operate on a regular basis at the same time every day, on the same route, carrying the same type of traffic, but how it gets its authority to move is different.
As far back as WW1 railroads ran trains as symbol freights on service schedules as extras.
Running a train as an extra gives a railroad more flexibility on when it runs, it can run ahead or be late and it doesn't affect anything else, and its easier to run multiple copies of the same service schedule.
The Reading Co. listed service schedules in its timetables on a separate page and noted that the schedules conveyed no authority.
Ed's reference (as usual!) is a delight!
Be advised that there are usually at least 3 things here.
Take for example "The Whippet", a highly interesting kind of service for a small model railroad. This had a 'marketing name', and the railroad supported this as far as 'semi-streamlining' the locomotive to carry the train name on the running boards. Presumably this connected with other railroads' Depression-era higher-speed or expedited merchandisers to give faster end-to-end timing.
The actual 'timetable' indication for The Whippet was 119-19-9 (according to Ed's reference in the early '50s) and this is how the railroad would refer to the train in communications.
Actual track authority for the train to move is yet another thing, and on the Rutland would probably have been conveyed by physical train orders. Note that this may involve 'priority of trains' by class or direction, but you would only factor that information into making up the train orders -- which the crews would then follow and all would be well.
The Whippet was special because it ran fast freight with a 2-8-0 with inside Stephenson gear; almost any model railroad, no matter how rural, could have a comparable kind of expedited service with 'showy' power.
OvermodThe actual 'timetable' indication for The Whippet was 119-19-9 (according to Ed's reference in the early '50s) and this is how the railroad would refer to the train in communications. Actual track authority for the train to move is yet another thing, and on the Rutland would probably have been conveyed by physical train orders. Note that this may involve 'priority of trains' by class or direction, but you would only factor that information into making up the train orders -- which the crews would then follow and all would be well.
A couple things here, if it has a timtable schedule, it will run on that schedule. The "119-19-9" thing looks like there were three schedules, No 119, No 19 and No 9, each running at a different time or on different days. Note all of those trains are in the same direction (odd one way, even the other.) If its run on the schedule it doesn't need train orders unless you want to change something or its running really late.
Superiority is TT&TO thing, priority is a management thing. Only the timetable can grant superiority by class or direction, but trains can be prioritized above the timetable schedule by "right" using train orders.
wrench567I know the PRR used the lead locomotive number in some of if not all train designations in the steam era.
Which pretty much says to me that they're running as extras. Since the locomotive assigned will change on a daily basis, you can't list timetable schedules by locomotive number, or list train symbols in a transportation plan. Those are fixed planning documents, so the schedule/symbol needs to be a fixed/"permanent" number or code that don't change every day.
The engine #, schedule #, and symbol # are all different things.
Train orders will be addressed to schedule #s or engine #s, not the symbol.
Later on track warrants are generally addressed to lead engine #s, not the symbol #. (Or possibly both depending on how the rr is doing things, but will definitely include the engine number e.g. "train BF-1, engine 1234") The schedule # no longer exists, because that's specific to timetable operation.
"Designation" is probably a really bad word to even use in this discusssion, as it doesn't have any sort of clear meaning. One person might mean "symbol" or "name" or "schedule" or "what the train order is addressed to"....
cv_acrTrain orders will be addressed to schedule #s or engine #s, not the symbol.
I agree with you but there are some exceptions that can confuse people. For example, some rules required regular trains to be identified by engine number too, as in "No 235 Eng 3985". There are cases where the railroad used numbers for its symbols, so the schedule number and the symbol were the same. And in the never say never dept., the MP ran the FF1 (Fast Ford auto parts train) as a first class train on a first class schedule as the "FF1" in the timetable. It was the only scheduled train on the subdivisions.
Other than exceptions like that, what Chris described is the most common way it was handled.
John-NYBW maxman John-NYBW freight symbol would be BF1 Conrail already used that BF-1 as part of EN-BF1, Enola to Buffalo Frontier yard. My railroad is set in 1956 so I had it first.
John-NYBW freight symbol would be BF1 Conrail already used that BF-1 as part of EN-BF1, Enola to Buffalo Frontier yard.
dehusmanThere are cases where the railroad used numbers for its symbols, so the schedule number and the symbol were the same.
Canadian railways used numeric symbols, so the schedule and symbols are (usually) the same.... **however** you can very well run one symbol on a different train's schedule, so it's still important to distinguish. You could run 949 on 951's schedule, so while the symbol might be 949, the orders would be to 951 because that's the schedule that's running.
You could check out this website it contains NYC timetables and schedules.
https://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/nyc-freight-schedules.htm
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
cv_acr dehusman There are cases where the railroad used numbers for its symbols, so the schedule number and the symbol were the same. Canadian railways used numeric symbols, so the schedule and symbols are (usually) the same.... **however** you can very well run one symbol on a different train's schedule, so it's still important to distinguish. You could run 949 on 951's schedule, so while the symbol might be 949, the orders would be to 951 because that's the schedule that's running.
dehusman There are cases where the railroad used numbers for its symbols, so the schedule number and the symbol were the same.
Dispatchers could run any train on any ETT schedule handy. They might do it because the symbol matching the schedule might be too early or late to use it. Meanwhile, another train could use it rather than annul it, saving some work on fixing up protection for an extra. Here's an example from a Rock Island train dispatcher's train sheet.
crip-fourth-ninth-tenth-sub-10-25-1975.jpg (26592×5553) (wordpress.com)
It shows 3 subdivisions: 4th, 9th and 10th. The 4th was double track on the east end, some CTC on the west, the rest TT&TO. The 9th and 10th were all TT&TO.
On subdivision 4 the schedules appearing in the ETT was 55, 57 and 59 westbound. Eastbound was 56 and 44.
On this day, symbol 43X25 (the X means a connection was missed) was run on 55's schedule. There was no 55 symbol train ran that day. Symbol 44A24 was run on 56's schedule. 56A23 ran as an extra. 44A25 also ran as an extra that day and the dispatcher annulled 44's schedule that day.
On the 9th and 10th subdivisions, the westward scheduled freight was 61, the eastward was 62.
Train 61A25 ran on 61's schedule over both subdivisions. Eastward on the 9th sub that day a local freight 190-25 was run on 62's schedule. Train 62A24 ran as an extra.
On subdivision 10, train 62M24 (M was a manifest overflow) and 62A24 both ran as extras and the dispatcher annulled 62's schedule over the subdivision.
Jeff
jeffhergertDispatchers could run any train on any ETT schedule handy.
On the MKT they had several schedules for thier freight trains but the MKT dispatchers would run whatever train was handy at the time of the schedule. Sometimes it was the Katy train, sometimes an MP freight, sometimes a MP coal train.
They once ran a deadheading detector car on an Amtrak schedule.
NYC, in the late '60s, used a mixture of coded symbols for freights. Three examples I recall were:
ChuckAllen, TX
For the newbies out there "schedule" does not mean the thing handed out at stations - often called the "public timetable" and really a marketing tool
The other is called the "Employee Timetable" (ETT) because it has a cover with words like "For the governance of employees only" which is very detailed and lists all trains to be operated on a given day as well as things like sidings, interlockings, signal towers, track speeds and weight restrictions, bridge and tunnel clearance and weight restrictions, company doctors, etc, etc. In conjunction with the line's rule book, it described in detail how the railroad should be operated by timetable SUPERIORITY
When the railroad couldn't be operated per the ETT, the dispatcher would issue train orders via operators to train crews to supercede the ETT by RIGHT to move the traffic.
Hence "Timetable and Train Order" (TTO) operation (In its pure form, also known as "Bow and Arrow" operations or territory)
If you want a thorough thrashing on the topic, Peter Josserand's 459 page magnum opus "The Rights of Trains" is for you
"In this 5th Edition, it has been the aim of the author to set forth clearly the basic principles underlying the Standard Code and to show how the rules of various railroads differ from the Code and from each other. Printed first in 1904 and updated in 1957, this popular book has been highly sought after throughout the years and only recently reprinted. The information is not new but still highly respected in the industry. Softcover. Sections include: - The Standard Code - Operating Rules - Block Signal Rules - Interlocking Rules - Signals and Their Use - Superiority of Trains - Train Movements - Forms of Train Orders - Centralized Traffic Control - Special instructions to both Operators and Train Dispatchers."
https://www.amazon.com/Rights-Trains-Peter-Josserand/dp/B0007E4IT8
If you are interested in a particular railroad check out its rulebook and ETT's on Ebay
If I remember correctly, the old Railroad Man's/Railroad magazine had a section where a situation would be posed to the reader with the question of what train orders he would issue to resolve it, with the answer in the next issue (kept the circulation up, ya know)
wjstixWere railroads using letter codes in 1956? I thought railroads pretty much all used train numbers until the 1960's?
The RDG was using letter codes in the 1920's.
YMMV
BEAUSABRE... which is very detailed and lists all trains to be operated on a given day as well as things like sidings, interlockings, signal towers, track speeds and weight restrictions, bridge and tunnel clearance and weight restrictions, company doctors, etc, etc.
Kinda sorta. It lists all the trains with a timetable schedule. A railroad might have one train listed in the timetable but can run a hundred trains per day on the territory.
Bridge and tunnel clearance restrictions may or may not be listed because they are so numerous and "clearance" can depend on the shape of the object.
BEAUSABREWhen the railroad couldn't be operated per the ETT, the dispatcher would issue train orders via operators to train crews to supercede the ETT by RIGHT to move the traffic.
I would phrase it that when the railroad wanted to run a train in addition to the scheduled trains (listed in the time table) they would run them extra.
Running a train extra doesn't "supersede" the timetable and doesn't mean the railroad "can't be operated by the timetable". The entire timetable is still in effect if a railroad runs an extra.
BEAUSABREHence "Timetable and Train Order" (TTO) operation (In its pure form, also known as "Bow and Arrow" operations or territory)
Never heard that term before, what does it mean?
Often timetable and train order operation uses the acronym of TTTO or TT&TO also. In many/most rule books "timetable" is two words "time table" (why ETT is ETT not ET). Not being arguementative, just informative.
Fun fact : Another thing people don't realize is that virtually every inch of every main track on every US railroad prior to the 1980's used train orders and the timetable. It's just that in some places the time table and train orders didn't authorize train movements. Whether you realize it or not, regardless of what authority method you are using, if you model a piece of main track on a US railroad prior to the late 1980's, you are using/can use train orders and if you model any railroad in the US in any era you can use an ETT.
dehusmanBEAUSABRE Hence "Timetable and Train Order" (TTO) operation (In its pure form, also known as "Bow and Arrow" operations or territory) Never heard that term before, what does it mean?
Also called "Dark territory" without any signals, CTC, radio or any other means of conrol other than dispatchers and operators for TTO. I think the idea is that harks back to pioneer railroading "out in Indian Country". Often a branch might be "Bow and Arrow territory" as normally no more than one or two trains might be expected on it, so why pay for the installation and maintenance of signals? Today it would probably operate under track warrants.
BEAUSABRE dehusman BEAUSABRE Hence "Timetable and Train Order" (TTO) operation (In its pure form, also known as "Bow and Arrow" operations or territory) Never heard that term before, what does it mean? Also called "Dark territory" without any signals, CTC, radio or any other means of conrol other than dispatchers and operators for TTO. I think the idea is that harks back to pioneer railroading "out in Indian Country". Often a branch might be "Bow and Arrow territory" as normally no more than one or two trains might be expected on it, so why pay for the installation and maintenance of signals? Today it would probably operate under track warrants.
dehusman BEAUSABRE Hence "Timetable and Train Order" (TTO) operation (In its pure form, also known as "Bow and Arrow" operations or territory) Never heard that term before, what does it mean?
Trains has had articles on train dispatching over the years. In the article from about mid-1980s (1986 IIRC) about train order dispatching TT&TO on the M-K-T, they had about the current ETT having a "dummy" schedule on some subdivisions. It did not correspond to a specific train symbol. The reason it was put in was to ease the work load. The first GCOR rule book omitted the train order form and ability to run sections of a schedule. The dummy schedule allowed a dispatcher to use it instead of running a train as an extra.
In the 1980 article on Rock Island dispatchers at Des Moines, IA, they called the northwest Iowa grain lines, all dark and TT&TO, the "bow and arrow" country. Not because it was unsignalled and controlled by TT&TO, but because of it's heritage. It truly was "bow and arrow" country when it was first settled.
BEAUSABREAlso called "Dark territory" without any signals, CTC, radio or any other means of conrol other than dispatchers and operators for TTO.
There was probably as much or more track miles under TT&TO WITH ABS signals than without.
I think the idea is that harks back to pioneer railroading "out in Indian Country".
Considering they had been railroading with TT&TO decades before there were significant railroads in "Indian territory", it seems like something made up later than earlier.
Not saying it wasn't used, just never heard of it in 37 years working for railroads in the midwest and west.
Dave:
RE, your comment about running a Shreveport-Itasca symbol. SP used to run E. St. Louis-City of Industry Trailers and Houston-City of Industry Trailers as the ESCIT and the HOCIT, back in the 1980s.
Take a look at this site it has a number of railroads and symbol books listed. A lot of variation on their practices. I think you can copy or download these symbol books. https://movingthefreight.com/railroads/
Ron High