Hi all,
So I’ve got a question about switching... basically, my layout is a loop but I operate it staging to yard to Industry. Using a wide cab (single unit), would the railroad switch with it and run single unit backward? Or would the train be ran with two units with cabs opposing?
The industry is an automotive plant.
Railroads can do this in many ways. It depends on the job and how much power they need.
On wide cab units, the hood remains narrow, and the engineer can see beyond it. He can run long hood forward.
For short moves the conductor would ride the last car with a brake hose in his hand (If the trqin was traveling). If switching, there might not be any air in the cylenders, in whichcase wh would have to signal to the engineer when to stop, and the the Conductor would set the required number of handbrakes before unculling the cars to be left behind.
One souther railroad that does a lot of running back end of the train first, built a cab car from an old caboose, put heatlights and qwheezels on it and could control the locomotive from the caboose.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Outsailing86 Hi all, So I’ve got a question about switching... basically, my layout is a loop but I operate it staging to yard to Industry. Using a wide cab (single unit), would the railroad switch with it and run single unit backward? Or would the train be ran with two units with cabs opposing? The industry is an automotive plant.
Yes.. I've seen NS and CSX use wide cabs on locals and seen them return long hood forward...
However..
Railroads will use a (say) GP40-2 or what seems to be their engine of choice the GP38-2.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Depends on what power is available, and how much the train needs.
If needed, they will run more than one unit, with cabs on opposing ends, and just switch cabs on the return trip.
Or, they will use one single unit, out and back, long hood forward one direction.
NS usually runs a SD40-2/3 on their Conneaut Turn that switches Erie and North East. East bound is generally cab first, return usually is long hood forward.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
BroadwayLionFor short moves the conductor would ride the last car with a brake hose in his hand (If the trqin was traveling).
To answer the OP's question, we had a switcher at a (for all intents and purposes single ended) yard at an outlying point. If a wide body unit was set off for them to use, it was preferred that the short hood was facing the the yard in order to see hand signals and the switches.
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It's a real pain to use a wide nose unit to switch or run backwards, especially with a desk top control stand. Using the rear view mirror is about the only way to watch a reverse move and still reach the controls.The view of anything on the ground close to the front is also obstructed by the wide nose .
The slow throttle response of these big engines is too slow for switching moves.
The electronic independent brake response is too slow for switching and is not capable of fine control.
GE units suck exhaust fumes into the cab when running in reverse.
mv wrote above: " It's a real pain to use a wide nose unit to switch or run backwards, especially with a desk top control stand. Using the rear view mirror is about the only way to watch a reverse move and still reach the controls"
I think this is one of the reasons railroads gave up on the "desktop controls" fad, and went back to a more traditional control stand to the left of the engineer. Easier to make backup moves or run long hood forward IF you have to.
"The slow throttle response of these big engines is too slow for switching moves."
Agreed. All this changed when digital controls came in with the emphasis on "fuel economy" and anti-pollution b.s.
The great locomotives of my day -- such as the EMD GP38's, GP40's, SD40's and SD50's -- were "responsive to your hand". You moved the throttle, you got RESPONSE for having done so.
No more. The engineer moves the throttle, and "the response" is then a function of the computers that run the locomotive.
"The electronic independent brake response is too slow for switching and is not capable of fine control."
I never worked with electronic brakes on freight engines, only on passenger equipment. But I would expect that (as with "power" above), the digital systems just don't "handle as well" as the older "straight air" brake equipment that preceded it. The 26 series in particular could be amazingly responsive to one's touch upon it.
Guess my comments reflect my age. Had lunch with a friend (also retired engineer) a couple of days ago, and we agreed that as enjoyable as our careers were "back then", we wouldn't want to be doing it today...
Thanks for the advice everyone! I know it’s easy to say “it’s your railroad...” but it’s got to look right too... otherwise lets just buy the cheap equipment
The answer to the OPs question is it depends on what railroad you are modeling.
I've heard from former BNSF engineers that the BNSF company policy is that a locomotive must always run forward. I believe this is due to the fact that BNSF wishes to save money and only equip locomotives with ditch lights in the front. Because of this locomotives running backwards would be restricted to speeds of 25 mph (or is it 20...) when traversing grade crossings. If you railfan BNSF you'll notice turns always operate with a pair of locomotives (even if they are standard cab geeps).
On CSX however I've both seen inperson and on video that locomotives are often run backwards, including safty cab locos such as older Dash-8s and even the new SD70MAC-T4 (I think that's what they're called...). I don't know the polices of NS, UP, or other shortlines and regionals. Ranfaning would reveal there policies.
I think it really comes down to how prototypical you want to be. If you only have one locomotive that is wide cab it may be financially favorable to run it unprototypically until another loco is aquired.
Hope this was helpful!
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
OldEnginemanThe great locomotives of my day -- such as the EMD GP38's, GP40's, SD40's and SD50's -- were "responsive to your hand". You moved the throttle, you got RESPONSE for having done so.
When I was a student brakeman on the PRR I notice some former steam engineers would look down at the ground to see if their GP7/9 or SD7/9 was moving due to the slight throttle lag. I understand it was common to look down at the ground to see when a steam engine started moving so,they did the same with the GP/SD 7/9s.
And yes,you coud kick cars with those GP/SD 7/9s.
As a side note the Alco RS-2/3 and RSD4/5 had instant throttle response.
BRAKIEWhen I was a student brakeman on the PRR I notice some former steam engineers would look down at the ground to see if their GP7/9 or SD7/9 was moving due to the slight throttle lag
Still done to this day. It's why locomotives have ground lights under the cab.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
BigJim BroadwayLion For short moves the conductor would ride the last car with a brake hose in his hand (If the trqin was traveling). Says who? The Lion? Tell me how the conductor is going to ride the side of a car holding on to the grab iron and a brake hose and a lantern and a radio? Never used a brake hose in forty years, never even saw one being used either.The Lion doesn't know jack about how to railroad! To answer the OP's question, we had a switcher at a (for all intents and purposes single ended) yard at an outlying point. If a wide body unit was set off for them to use, it was preferred that the short hood was facing the the yard in order to see hand signals and the switches.
BroadwayLion For short moves the conductor would ride the last car with a brake hose in his hand (If the trqin was traveling).
Says who? The Lion? Tell me how the conductor is going to ride the side of a car holding on to the grab iron and a brake hose and a lantern and a radio? Never used a brake hose in forty years, never even saw one being used either.The Lion doesn't know jack about how to railroad!
The caboose has a brake valve, and I have seen AMTK back into Chicago with the conductor holding on to a hose with a brake valve.
More recently I have seen switching done by a one-man crew using a remote console. The locomotive is unoccupied and the engineer is on the ground.
In yards the BNSF conductor switches the train from the remote unit on the ground and no engineer is involved in the movements.
CSX had some ex Conrail GP38s that were equipped with ditch lights on both ends. They even switched ends when you moved the reverser, just like model headlights.
BroadwayLionMore recently I have seen switching done by a one-man crew using a remote console. The locomotive is unoccupied and the engineer is on the ground.
On our road, that person would be a remote control operator (RCO).
I really found this thread interesting because I can remember just a few years ago the Indiana Southern RR using ex-CN GP40-2LWs for locals and switching. They no longer have these and what they are using now are all standard cabs both SD and GP40s, but it seems that a lot of shortline and regional railroads purchased these.
I always wondered what the crews thought of these. I also wondered how they rode compared to a standard cab especially at the low speeds for switching and locals. So from what I gather a standard cab would be preferred?
thanks, Ralph
On BNSF the engineers refused to do this. Maybey they did not want to walk around in the cold and the snow.
The Conductors who had to go out in the cold and the snow anyway, said sure, we'll do it.
Cut your nose off to spite your face.
Depends on what is meant by "wide cab". If you mean like a safety cab 'modern' engine like an ES-44 or SD-70, then as the Lion noted you can see backwards from the cab out the rear window, since the body is narrower than the cab. If you mean an F-unit or other engine with a full-width body, it becomes harder. Railroads generally tried to just use F-units for mainline trains, and use GPs or RSs for way freight work.
MARTIN STATIONI also wondered how they rode compared to a standard cab especially at the low speeds for switching and locals.
Word from Canada was that they rode much worse, both in terms of excessive weight on the suspension at the cab end and in effects of higher polar moment of inertia out of vertical plane. Suspect the effects wouldn't be as bad at low speeds simply because the energy going into carbody movement on the suspension stays mostly low. Ask this over in one of the appropriate Trains Magazine forums (say, in Locomotives or in the thread "String Lining" in general topics) to hear the genuine voice of the Canadians.
BroadwayLion On BNSF the engineers refused to do this. Maybey they did not want to walk around in the cold and the snow. The Conductors who had to go out in the cold and the snow anyway, said sure, we'll do it. Cut your nose off to spite your face. ROAR
I assume you're talking about the RCO agreements. The UTU (now SMART) signed a national agreement to implement the RCOs first. The BLE (now BLET) had signed an on-property agreement, that only encompassed the Montana Rail Link, earlier. On the MRL, the BLE held the contract for both engine and trainmen. On the other carriers, where one union held the engineer's contract and the other held the trainmen's contract, either union negotiating for the RCOs was in effect negotiating to get rid of jobs for the other union's members. I don't recall if the BLE had turned down the idea of negotiating an agreement for RCOs.
I was in the UTU at the time (I was still a trainman) and remember how they were able to get an extra 46 minutes pay added to the normal pay for operating the box. Why 46 minutes? Because the BLE on the MRL got 45 minutes extra for operating the box. I still have my RCO vest in my locker. Haven't used it for about 15 years and don't forsee using it any time soon.
Jeff
Overmod,
Thank you. I know I read somewhere that the GP60Ms that Santa Fe had rode rough at lower speeds and smoothed out at higher speed but I didn't know if the same held true for the GP40-2LW types that were built in Canada. What you said make sense though.
Thanks again,
Ralph
P.S. Also checked out the thread you recommend and SD70dude said in one of his post about the crews not liking the way the GP38-2Ws rode because of the extra weight of the cabs. This pretty much answers my question. Thanks for sending me there, it's an interesting thread.