I have been vacillating quite a bit on the exact year for my layout. I have it narrowed it down to between about 1961 and 1973. I have done a lot of research but still cant decide. I am open to others opinions and pros and cons of each year. Many of you know the "year that this or that changed" off the top of your heads and can give me things to consider. The layout has a fixed minimum radius of 24" so I would like to keep car lengths down. That keeps me pushing toward the earlier times, but how many larger freight cars were there really being used up until the early 70s?
My trackwork and cars are working well enough that I can run a nice set of 85' passenger cars smoothly, but as these don't look as nice on the 24" curves so I would like to at least keep the freights to much shorter cars. The more 40 and 50 footers the better, however I find the later years offer a bit more variety of locos, pretty much the end of E and F style units (so less need for MUs on this small layout), a little more variety of rolling stock, the beginning of removal of roofwalks, the era of mergers, pre-Conrail, and most importantly I can personally remember more of the later years.
Any personal opinions and pros and cons?
Sounds like you're leaning towards '73. So then the question is "Why not?"
My recollection is that most freight cars maxed out at 50'. The exceptions were trailer flats, auto racks, and high cube 87'. You don't HAVE to run those unless your railroad ran them. On your tracks. There weren't even a lot of 60' cars in the general mix. It is true, though, that the 40' boxes were disappearing pretty quickly.
Ed
(That was supposed to read "between" 1961 and 1973. I fixed it.) The most notable things I know of that happened was the end of roofwalks on new cars in 66?, and the Penn Central merger in 68 and bankruptcy in 70 although it still existed as a railroad. The later years also have the possibility to go wild with heavy weathering to depict the really rundown state of railroads at that time...
One I've encountered is availability of appropriate vehicles. I enjoy building vehicles as much as I do rolling stock. But the availability of different 80's vehicles sometimes makes building appropriate vehicles (particularly pickup trucks) difficult.
This logic can be applied to other areas too. Are suitible structure kits available, or will you be scratchbuilding? Will you have to custom paint rolling stock/locos?
Modeling whatever I can make out of that stash of kits that takes up half my apartment's spare bedroom.
Bundy74 One I've encountered is availability of appropriate vehicles.... ....This logic can be applied to other areas too. Are suitible structure kits available?
One I've encountered is availability of appropriate vehicles....
....This logic can be applied to other areas too. Are suitible structure kits available?
restoratorThe later years also have the possibility to go wild with heavy weathering to depict the really rundown state of railroads at that time...
Before you go wild with weathering I highly suggest studying photos of that era on http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/
You will be mildly surprise of the way things actually look.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE restorator The later years also have the possibility to go wild with heavy weathering to depict the really rundown state of railroads at that time... Before you go wild with weathering I highly suggest studying photos of that era on http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ You will be mildly surprise of the way things actually look.
restorator The later years also have the possibility to go wild with heavy weathering to depict the really rundown state of railroads at that time...
restoratorWell I certianly didn't mean heavy weathering on absolutely "everything", however there certainly was some well worn equipment and neglected physical plant in places, even as new items were introduced. Some of that extensive decay could be modeled and give the layout more character.
Another factor is safety first, last and always and the railroads seen that was followed.
Weeds,boarded up stations and some towers was common, dirty cars was the norm and remember if a customer deem a car unfit to use he could and would reject it.
Another factor is not all railroads was the same C&O/B&O/WM (in the 60 and into the 70s under Chessie),N&W and Southern was in great shape compared to (say) railroads in the NorthEast,E-L and PC.
Roads like SCL,CRR,RF&P,L&N was in good to fair shape.ICG,RI,Milwaukee not so good.
Keep in mind you're not actually required to pick an exact year to model. Many folks happily model "the sixties" or "the transition era"; our British cousins often build layouts set "between the wars (1918-39)".
Although larger freight cars began to be built in the mid-sixties, to my mind the biggest difference between 1961 and 1973 is going to be passenger service. When the US Postal Service took the mail (Railway Post Office cars) off trains in the mid-sixties, many trains that had been at least breaking even began losing money without the mail contracts. That caused railroads to discontinue many trains, and eventually led to them asking the federal goverment to bail them out - which it did by taking over passenger trains and forming Amtrak. So 1961 is going to have more passenger trains than you'd see in say 1970, and by 1973 it was Amtrak (albeit with a colorful mix of Amtrak equipment and engines / cars still lettered for their original railroads).
7j43k Sounds like you're leaning towards '73. So then the question is "Why not?" My recollection is that most freight cars maxed out at 50'. The exceptions were trailer flats, auto racks, and high cube 87'. You don't HAVE to run those unless your railroad ran them. On your tracks. There weren't even a lot of 60' cars in the general mix. It is true, though, that the 40' boxes were disappearing pretty quickly. Ed
So basically you have to cut out common freight cars and model a short line to eliminate longer cars because in 1973 40' box cars were on their way out and 60' box cars were common and 89 flat cars and auto racks were regulars on most mainline freight trains.
So whether you model 1961, there was passenger service with 85' passenger cars and 85' TOFC flat cars, or you go to 1973 after Amtrak took over - you might still have passenger service and you have a lot of 85 and 89 foot flat cars and auto racks, and longer freight cars as well. Really there is no way to shrug off longer freight cars unless you have a RR that does not handle mainline traffice, which is appealing to some.
Of course if keeping freight cars on the average as short as possible, then 1961 will have a larger percentage of short cars including more 40' box cars and 60' and longer were less common.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
wjstixKeep in mind you're not actually required to pick an exact year to model. Many folks happily model "the sixties" or "the transition era"; our British cousins often build layouts set "between the wars (1918-39)".
Stix has a good point here. If the stretch of line you're roughly intending to model didn't itself change much between 61 and 71, that could be part of the reason the mix you want isn't just jumping right out at you. You're possibly interested in a broader range of era than how you define it here. If it. comes down to equipment that is, after al, mostly the same. Without a clear and well-defined reason to commit to any certain year. you'll probably find yourself drifting around some in that era anyway. Don't beat yourself up over it, go with the flow, run an early 60s, then a late 60s session. It's all good.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
wjstixyou're not actually required to pick an exact year to model.
.
This is one area where I am a complete fanatic.
The STRATTON & GILLETTE exists only on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954, at 2:00 in the afternoon.
It is amazing how many parts of the hobby I have a "devil may care" attitude about, but I am insane about enforcing the date policy.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
restorator (That was supposed to read "between" 1961 and 1973. I fixed it.) The most notable things I know of that happened was the end of roofwalks on new cars in 66?, and the Penn Central merger in 68 and bankruptcy in 70 although it still existed as a railroad. The later years also have the possibility to go wild with heavy weathering to depict the really rundown state of railroads at that time...
I would go with late December, 1963.
GP7, GP9, GP18, GP20, GP30, GP35 are all valid for this date.
SD7, SD9, SD18 (good luck finding one...but do complain loudly to every manufacturer you can see to make a C&O/Chessie SD18 with RSD5 trucks), SD24 are valid.
All models of Alco 4 axel Road Switchers are valid (RS-36 ended production in 1963).
All 6 Axel Alco Road switchers likely valid choices (RSD-15 ended production in 1960).
You have 3 Alco Century locomotives that were produced starting in 1963.
A couple of GE locomotives.
Plus center and end cab switchers from all three companies. Probably some Baldwins and F-Ms as well...
Plenty of options if you dont want to run A-B...sets of Cab road units.
Plus you can play the song if people ask you what year you are modeling....its win-win.
SeeYou190The STRATTON & GILLETTE exists only on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954, at 2:00 in the afternoon.
When you were born perhaps?
Paul
IRONROOSTERWhen you were born perhaps?
No, my dad was only 13 in 1954.
I decided on 1954 because of locomotive preferences. I bought a 1954 calendar at an antique store and have had it hanging in my railroad room for years. I like the picture of August the best.
3 is a sacred angelic number, so I chose the third, which happens to be a Tuesday. See, it makes perfect sense.
BMMECNYCI would go with late December, 1963.
Ah, December 1963, that was a very special time, at least for me. However, as I recall, it ended much too soon. There was this one time I felt a bolt of rushing thunder, spinning my head around and taking my body under. What a night. It took me a while to see the light, it seemed so wrong, but now it seems so right.
If your railroad only exists at one specific time then its a diorama, because nothing can move. Motion is the change in position over a change in time, if time never changes, then there is no motion.
A cop pulls Heisenberg over and walkings up to the car. The cop says, "Did you know you were going 60 mph in a 25 mph zone?" Heisenberg said, "Oh great now I'm lost." 8-)
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
For a long time, I planned to build a layout that was designed to rotate between different years / time periods, say moving ahead 15-20 years every actual calendar year. Even wrote an article about it that was published in RMC, back when the only way to get to the LHS was riding our dinosaurs.
Anyway, eventually I realized it would mean a LOT of work - changing autos and some people wasn't too bad, but things like buildings, billboards, backdrops etc. could be a hassle. Plus it meant I had to have several sets of cars for each industry, so like for an oil dealer I'd need the correct type of tank cars for 1940, 1960, 1980, and 2000.
I'm currently working on having each of the four main areas of the layout represent different time frames, so the 'logging line' area is set in the pre-WW2 era, and uses my oldest steam engines and cars. The large city on the layout is set in more recent times, and it's industries get cars you'd see in the 1980's or 1990's. Since each area is scenically separate, and has it's own trains (so a town set in 1960 would have it's own wayfreight, probably with first generation diesel power and using only cars correct for that time) it seems so far to work OK - it's a compromise, but one that seems to work.
A few good people give you a few perfect years between 1960-1963.
I model different eras as well. New York Central in 1957-1967, Conrail 1987-1989, BNSF/ Union Pacific 1998-2007.
I model within 2007 or late 2006. UP FDA change from red to yellow sills. Freight cars adding more and more safety stripes for automobiles. Which I don't like ranging more plain cars than strips.
My real interest in modeling the 1990s. Lending more into the '80s.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
1961 and 1973 is to wide of a modeling era because a lot of changes was taking place during those years from bankruptcies to shining times,passenger trains dropped like flies or was downsized,we saw Alco cease production and in '71 we saw the birth Amtrak.
These were exciting years as well as we seen new locomotives from EMD and GE and many railroads was beginning to drop Alcos and cab units like hot potatoes.
For the shining times of the 60s I would lean toward 64-66 and would favor C&O/B&O,N&W or Southern over the Eastern bankrupt roads. I might consider NYC only because I like the simple paint scheme and those great looking Jade Green boxcars.
It also depends on what you want to model and where. Started out liking the LV in about 1974, but I wanted to have coal cars and coal trains. In 1974 the LV wasn't hauling much coal (actually by then they weren't hauling much of anything). So I eventually changed to the RDG.
My suggestion is to pick a 3-5 year span to model instead of a decade. Makes it much easier to narrow things down. If you want more of a variety, then pick multiple 3-5 year eras. So model 60-63, and then model 70-73. It will help narrow down details, autos, billboards, engines, cars, whatever.
dehusmanIf your railroad only exists at one specific time then its a diorama, because nothing can move.
All layouts are dioramas. Only the trains have life. It is always 2:00 in the afternoon regardless of how much the trains move around and do their assigned work.
The guy never walks into the hardware store. The city bus never pulls away from the passenger shelter. That dog never moves away from the fire hydrant. The police offcier has had the same car pulled over in the same spot for as long as anyone can remember.
Just because the electric trains move around, that does not change anything else. Even those crazy masterpieces of animated "train layouts" that we see in YouTube videos from Europe, are still just dioramas with a bit more animation.
The leaves will never turn brown and fall to the ground. Snow will never come, turn to slush, freeze into ice, then melt away. New flowers will never bloom.
My railroad exists right at a point where it was perfect. Nothing will ever age any further and rust away. Rails will never be torn up when the businesses close, and no one will ever move away for a brighter future in a bigger city.
2:00 PM, Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954 in the township of Willoughby on the SGRR mainline.
SeeYou190 2:00 PM, Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954 in the township of Willoughby on the SGRR mainline. . -Kevin .
SeeYou190. BMMECNYC I would go with late December, 1963. Ah, December 1963, that was a very special time, at least for me. However, as I recall, it ended much too soon. There was this one time I felt a bolt of rushing thunder, spinning my head around and taking my body under. What a night. It took me a while to see the light, it seemed so wrong, but now it seems so right. . . -Kevin
BMMECNYC I would go with late December, 1963.
Ah, December 1963, that was a very special time, at least for me. However, as I recall, it ended much too soon. There was this one time I felt a bolt of rushing thunder, spinning my head around and taking my body under. What a night. It took me a while to see the light, it seemed so wrong, but now it seems so right. . . -Kevin
At least someone got a kick out of it.
If you push it to 64 you get a whole bunch more GEs and Alcos. Check the wikipedia or pick up the diesel spotters guide.
To decide what particular year and/or season is "best" you need fairly specific prototype interests. For example, I wanted to model Santa Fe in Oklahoma, and picked May/June 1964. That year, ATSF had a good mix of 1st and 2nd generation diesels I liked and was still running not only passenger trains with headend mail/express but also outright mail trains - which really interested me. The season, meanwhile, coincides with the wheat harvest and seasonal stock moves, so provides for a bit more local industry traffic than other times of the year (rail livestock traffic was almost, but not quite, done by '64).
If your interests aren't quite that particular, then I agree with others that you might be better off modeling a range rather than one particular year. For freight, you've got the same problem of long cars being at least reasonably common (on mainlines at least) throughout your entire '61-'73 range. But for passenger operations, as others have pointed out, you really have two very different worlds: before and after the post office contract cancellation in fall 1967. Not only were there fewer passenger trains after that, but the survivors looked very different, with virtually no head-end cars other than maybe a single baggage car for checked luggage.
So, if you want passenger trains, I'd suggest picking a narrower range either before or after that big change. In the earlier era, you get to use interesting stuff like RPOs, converted troop sleeper express boxcars, and so on, while in the later era you can have fun mingling passenger equipment painted for various roads as well as Amtrak all in one train, which was totally the norm in the early Amtrak years.
CNSFFor freight, you've got the same problem of long cars being at least reasonably common (on mainlines at least) throughout your entire '61-'73 range. But for passenger operations, as others have pointed out, you really have two very different worlds: before and after the post office contract cancellation in fall 1967
I can run longer cars successfully, and after significant research I find many people with limited space have to ignore the overhang of long cars as long as you can get them to run reliably. And after reviewing a bunch of youtube videos and pictures I think you really have to get beyond something like 40" radius before anything really starts to have any kind of realism anyway. And as it's my railroad, I think I can live with the toylike appearance in favor of having the rest of my givens and druthers. That said longer cars will still likely be limited in use. Even though this probably means a bit less 40' cars I can still keep the 60's to a minimum with just enough to give it a bit of credibility.
So far I think this discussion has led me toward modeling a time about 1966-1971 as "my" era. Pretty much where I started. Toward the end of the era I can run a very eclectic groups of passneger cars as the beginning days of Amtrak if I so choose, which means I can pick up the odd car here and there when a deal can be had, instead of investing a large chunk of change for a complete high end set. Or if I do acquire a set, I can run an earlier year.
I can just run an occasional run through from staging to staging of an 89' trailer train if I want, or even skip them altogether and just imagine they come through this stretch overnight when I'm not there.
In either case, a layout given is it is set in semi-fictional parts of the northeast, and although I started out and have collected some Pennsy equipment, I grew up around Erie-Lackawaana and am a bit partial to it. So as I continue growing I can either settle down into a narrower time period or as suggested keep it as is and run various equipment based on the selcted "year(s)" for a session. In the 1966-71 range a lot of changes happened that could be really interesting to collect, which could bankrupt me, but thats part of the fun isnt it?
This discussion was very helpful and the biggest thing I realized is that in the end none of it really matters. I only have to please myself. My layout is not built to compete with anyone else, and my experience, time, and money are all different than the next guy. If it pleases ME than I am doing it right.
BMMECNYCAt least someone got a kick out of it.
Yes I really did.
In the olden days, many model railroaders used what they called a "cut off year" to describe their layout, as in "I don't like diesels, so my layout's cut off year is 1929" or "I don't like "Big Sky Blue", so my GN layout's cut off year is 1966" or something like that. Anything from the cutoff year or earlier was OK, but nothing after that year was allowed.
wjstixIn the olden days, many model railroaders used what they called a "cut off year" to describe their layout,
That is exactly what I did with my N scale "Dream House" layout. My cut off year was 1968. Anything with a build date 1969 or later was not considered, but I gave little worry to what could have been gone by 1968 that was manuafactured earlier. I had no steam locomotives, so any anachronism there was avoided.
My current roster-building is about the same. I might have equipment that would not have still been around in 1954, but nothing that has not been manufactured yet.
My cutoff date for my layout is May/June 2007.
The Union Pacific models that Kato made I checked the years when the red sill was being replaced with yellow. In which looks awful and no brake between the yellow and grey on the bottom.
I also cutoff Conrail in 1989 because they switched the number boards from black to white and added the white sill with Conrail Quality logo.