I am building a railroad based on the home town for a short run line between Hartford CT and Boston MA. The line has two switchers and one F3A. The refuelling station is intended to be a bit sparse - just an underground tank and an outlet. Can any one describe what this sort of set up would look like? I am at aloss as to how to describe it to Google.
David
Long Haired DavidA.K.A. David Penningtonmain man on the Sunset and North Eastern R.R.http://www.gmrblog.co.ukfrom the UK
Hi David,
I Googled Diesel fueling facilities, and came up with a lot of interesting images, of model facilities, and real ones.
You'll probably want to add some type of sand facility to go with it.
Have fun!
Mike.
My You Tube
When I typed "diesel locomotive fueling station", I got many images, but this caught my attention as you mentioned New England.
http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/fileSendAction/fcType/0/fcOid/15931049876429353/filePointer/15931049898134340/fodoid/15931049898134336/imageType/LARGE/inlineImage/true/FL9s%2520being%2520serviced%2520Dover%2520Street%2520Boston%25202_65.jpg
Modeling whatever I can make out of that stash of kits that takes up half my apartment's spare bedroom.
It could be a stand pipe coming out of the ground, with a valve on it, with a "U" at the top and then a large hose coming down with the fuel filler nozzle on the end. There would be no drip pans, so oil and diesel soaked sand would be pretty prevalent.
If you don't know what to search for, search for "everything". Try combinations of diesel, locomotive, railroad, fueling, service track, F3, F7, fuel rack, etc.
I had luck with images for : Fueling locomotive
Scroll down to the picture of the NH engines:
http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/diesel-fueling-station-transition-era
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
It seems like this kind of railroad likely couldn't afford the cost of burying a tank. I think they'd have it up on a rack, so that it could gravity feed the fuel tanks. Fuel quite likely would be delivered by truck, and THAT guy could do the pumping. It doesn't have to be way-high. Maybe the bottom of the tank might be 5-6 feet off the ground.
The tank could be an old tank from a tank car. I'd recommend an 8,000 gallon tank (as small as possible). Probably the Lifelike/P2K/Walthers riveted one.
Walthers also shows a buncha fuel storage structures.
I've also heard of skipping the tank and just having the guy drive over and fill the tank(s) right off the truck.
Ed
Thanks for all of the replies. I have found that Walthers has a kit for this. I normally don't look at these as shiping to the UK is ery expensive but our local importer has the kit for $36 (equiv) so I will go for that, I think.
7j43kThe tank could be an old tank from a tank car. I'd recommend an 8,000 gallon tank (as small as possible). Probably the Lifelike/P2K/Walthers riveted one
Most any tank would work. I plan to use a tank car from an old, cheap, set car that you can pick up at a show or swap meet for next to nothing. Take the wheels off, place it on a berm of dirt or crib made of ties and planking.
Good luck,
Richard
This Jack Delano photo has always fascinated me with all the activity going on.
http://www.shorpy.com/node/83?size=_original#caption
It looks like they are pressurizing the tanks from air taken off the main air reservoir connection between the units (red hose to tank dome).
The New York Central converted many six-axle Mohawk tenders into diesel fuel use. These looked like "Rube Goldberg" affairs with pumps mounted on the decks and hose reels on the ends. There were still two of them in use in my area into the early 1970s.
Good Luck, Ed
That IS a neat photo. With the guy and his son in the foreground, it almost looks like a Lionel ad. Also note the engineer with his carry-on bag. And tie.
Studying the photo a bit, it appears the car in the foreground is supplying water. The hose on the near end goes right over to the water filler on the A. I agree that that's an air line to the dome to pressurize the water. It's interesting that there's only access up to the dome on one side of the car. Kinda unusual. But then it's a company service car.
And the tank in the rear would be fuel, what with the hoses going to the fuel tanks and all. I see a steel frame coming over from the left towards the dome, but perhaps it's more between the two cars. It looks to be pressurized, too.
And then there's the blue flag on the front of the loco. And that big red disk on a stand right near by.
Oh, my, yes. A terrific photo.
Thanks, Ed
7j43kOh, my, yes. A terrific photo.
Not to mention the neat bell on the E6, a blue flag on the tank car (I missed that the first time around) three worn-out brake shoes laying near the rail in the foreground, and the fact that "back in the day" you could wander around while the engines were being serviced—as the fellow in brown pants with his hands in his pockets is doing—without the wrath of the legal department coming down on you!
Just in the proximity of the locomotives alone I count twenty railroad or Pullman employees! My how times have changed.
Sorry, but had to comment on it...
A lot of 50/60 era short lines used the local fuel dealer to refuel their locomotive(s) rather then spending money on a servicing area and sand was added by hand-the crew would dump bags of locomotive sand into the locomotives sand bins. A forklift was used to lift the bags to the sand hatch. Needless to say the number of needed bags was placed on pallets for this operation and it was back breaking work since these bags weigh 100 pounds...
About that photo..A close study will reveal several modeling and weathering ideas and will show those shiny Santa Fe passenger engines and passenger cars wasn't all that shiny after all..
Another oddity for a war time photo there's a lack of service men in that photo.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIEAbout that photo..A close study will reveal several modeling and weathering ideas and will show those shiny Santa Fe passenger engines and passenger cars wasn't all that shiny after all..
Well, a couple of points on that... maybe?
1) It's March and the car washing racks are probably not running during cold Chicago weather;
2) It's the middle of the War so car washing was probably not a top priority, even for the mighty Santa Fe.
3) We're looking at the roof of the engines and train. Even after going through the wash rack, the roof still stayed a little dirtier. Sometimes the car sides got a little scrubbing at an intermediate station, but the roof usually didn't get touched.
4) The train just traveled about 1350 miles. Chances are a little dust and grime was picked up along the way.
That's how I see it anyway... I could be wrong.
gmpullmanThat's how I see it anyway... I could be wrong. Ed
Ed,Since that's a war time photo maybe they thought all the grime and dirt would hide it from any Luftwaffe attack.
BRAKIEEd,Since that's a war time photo maybe they thought all the grime and dirt would hide it from any Luftwaffe attack.
That IS the reason for the shield on the headlight! Well, not the Luftwaffe but the IJNA. I've even seen those shields applied to marker lamps, too. Seems like every railroad didn't comply with that "directive"? I don't recall any similar shield on the NYC or PRR?
[edit] A little digging and I found that the railroads operating within 500 miles of the Pacific Coast were required to have the visors. Air attack was presumed to come from the Pacific side.
Regards, Ed
Ed!
Very interesting photo! Thanks for sharing. I could spend all day studying the individual details in the picture.
One question I have is to ask what might have been the purpose of the older baggage car which is parked behind the two tank cars?
Thanks,
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hi Dave,
At the risk of speculation, which we usually have to do in these cases, the simple answer is, it's just parked there waiting to be picked up by whatever train the trainmaster decides is the best routing. It looks empty but it may have been loaded with periodicals, maybe newspapers and rather than delay a train while unloading, the car was simply "set-out". Sometimes a "consignee" will have a car to send or recieve "time-sensitive" express and the depot would be used like a team track. Amtrak used to pick up cars of tomato juice and ketchup in Toledo, Ohio packed in express cars.
I first thought maybe the tank cars were semi-permanantly parked on that siding (many stations had a stub-track for business cars, sometimes Pullmans where passengers could board in the evening and sleep while the car was picked up in the early-hours, or to set out private cars) but looking at the wheels they seem pretty shiny so the Santa Fe might move the cars to be refilled?
Anyway, that baggage car was probably just waiting to be picked up by the next available "secondary" train to pass through in the right direction. The switch crew might just yank out all three cars, tie the baggage on to the rear of the passenger train and spot the tank cars back in the same place.
Again, all speculation. Once the fueling is done and the hoses disconnected, the blue flag probably came off and those cars can be switched like any other.
I have a book of Jack Delano's photos. I'll see if he has any comments on that photo. He spent almost a year on the Santa Fe and C&NW taking OWI photos.
Hope we aren't hijacking this fellow's thread Ed
gmpullmanAgain, all speculation. Once the fueling is done and the hoses disconnected, the blue flag probably came off and those cars can be switched like any other.
Seeing that is a refueling point for diesel passenger locomotives on other trains I doubt if those tank cars are moved for switching out a baggage car when there are other tracks available on the right side of the photo where those heavy weight cars are. Unless the trainmaster was a complete fool why would he want the baggage car spotted behind tank cars being used for refueling.OTOH Trainmasters never seem to be the sharpest tools in the shed especially the upstarts that never had boots on the ground as a trainman..
I suspect its being used for other things like storing extra hoses and fittings perhaps?
Ed and Larry:
Thanks for your 'speculation'. I'm inclined to think that it was being used for some sort of storage purpose but for what. They wouldn't need that much space for just hoses.
One thing that intrigues me is the number of spectators. Maybe having Joe civilian walking all over the place was the norm in those days.
Curiouser and curiouser!
What I find really useful about Ed's photo is the way the hoses are spread out on the ground. To me that conveys the 'real' aspect of the scene. I'll have to figure out how to model rubber hoses so they have all the natural curves like those in the picture. Maybe overcooked spagettini noodles!
Hi David:
SBXI am at aloss as to how to describe it to Google.
I have to apologize for hacking your thread. It is an interesting topic.
Whether the supply tanks were above or below ground I think the fueling hose apparatuces would be very similar. Maybe have a look at Walthers fueling station for ideas:
https://www.walthers.com/diesel-fueling-facility-kit
Unfortunately the kit is discontinued but the fuel stands would be pretty easy to model using some styrene and #26 ga. insulated wire.
hon30critterOne thing that intrigues me is the number of spectators. Maybe having Joe civilian walking all over the place was the norm in those days.
Dave,Even well into the 70s railroads was accessible and much more friendlier then today.
Time was you could spend time talking to a switch tender,crossing guard or tower operator in their perspective shanties or towers.. A tour of a engine cab was some times granted by the engineer and they would explain what each control handle was use for.
Yes,railroad management was aware of such activity but,turned a blind eye. All to sadly this ended with ridiculous lawsuits and has tighten down over the years. A simple cab tour today could get the engineer and conductor fired and the railfan arrested..
I still railfan and haven't been harass by the railroads I visit or the local LEO. Of course I stay in well known "train watcher"(their words not mine) areas and at least 50' from the track.
gmpullman This Jack Delano photo has always fascinated me with all the activity going on. http://www.shorpy.com/node/83?size=_original#caption It looks like they are pressurizing the tanks from air taken off the main air reservoir connection between the units (red hose to tank dome).
I'm planning a layout similar to the OP and have to make the same decision. As in that excellent photo, might a small branch line have fueled that way, directly from a tank car on the adjacent track? It seems like the ideal solution- when the tank car is empty they just roll in a full one on the next train coming in from wherever. Seems cheaper and easier than either a buried tank or a aboveground fixed tank that itself has to get fuel from somewhere.
If my understanding of the process is right, no fancy pumps or machinery or anything is required... the locomotive pumps high pressure air into the top of the tank which pushes the fuel out the bottom into the locomotive. This should be something any diesel road engine or switcher could do, as they all had compressed air for their braking, correct?
speedybee It seems like the ideal solution- when the tank car is empty they just roll in a full one on the next train coming in from wherever.
While that is a possibility, and may have been done at some high-volume facilities, it is more likely that a local fuel delivery service refills the tank car by contract with the railroad. The drivers are probably instructed to pump whatever they have left in their truck at the end of the day into the tanks. The RR would get a lower rate like this.
At one time, Athearn had tank cars lettered for fuel service:
speedybeethe locomotive pumps high pressure air into the top of the tank which pushes the fuel out the bottom into the locomotive.
The air is certainly regulated to a lower pressure, say 15 PSI, tank cars have relief valves to prevent overpressure. Of course, some cars were designed for higher pressures but not like the one in the photo.
Kind of like a toilet cistern, it refills slowly but dumps quickly (through the 3" hoses to the locomotive fuel tanks). As I mentioned above, even an old steam locomotive tender could be used as a trackside tank as I have seen on the NYC.
It gives you a reason to have a Classic Metal Works tank truck on your layout, too
gmpullmanWhile that is a possibility, and may have been done at some high-volume facilities, it is more likely that a local fuel delivery service refills the tank car by contract with the railroad.
Ed,In the photo you posted the wheels on the front tank car is shiny so,I suspect they switched out tank cars once they were empty.
Some how we went from a short line refueling system of the 50/60 to a photo of WWII Santa Fe in '43 and a photo of NH locomotive servicing area which most short lines would not have.
Back to the topic of a short line refueling system of the 50/60s.
A permanent tank car could have been used and the local fuel dealer refilling it as needed or better still the dealer could pump the fuel directly into their engines fuel tanks.
My choice would be to detruck a tank car and place it on timbers or two double stacks of ties and have the local dealer to refill it as needed.
The second choice would be finding a elevated fuel tank like Revell,AHM and later ConCor made.
Thanks for the insight everyone! This fella seems to fit the bill
BRAKIEBack to the topic of a short line refueling system of the 50/60s. A permanent tank car could have been used and the local fuel dealer refilling it as needed or better still the dealer could pump the fuel directly into their engines fuel tanks. My choice would be to detruck a tank car and place it on timbers or two double stacks of ties and have the local dealer to refill it as needed. The second choice would be finding a elevated fuel tank like Revell,AHM and later ConCor made.
Like this kit?
Someone gave me one a few years ago. Have never been sure what to do with it.
Gary
Gary,That would work for a short line..Here's the one I used on my Detroit Connecting way back in the early 60s. I placed the tank on the conrete footings on the base and added Revell's crossing shanty as a pump house. I also use their sand and pump house and two stall engine house. Revell made excellent kits.
http://hoseeker.com/revellinformation/revellt9029fueltank1960pg1.jpg
Those Revell kits look pretty good. I like it better than mine, but hey, free is free. I'm setting up a service area near my yard, so I think I'll park one or both of my Life Like tanks there.
Your link also says permission denied. I found it by going to HOseeker web site.
Mike
garya Those Revell kits look pretty good. I like it better than mine, but hey, free is free. I'm setting up a service area near my yard, so I think I'll park one or both of my Life Like tanks there.
Just for general information for anybody that may be interested in these buildings..These Revell buildings was release under ConCor's name for several years and IMHO very adaptive to today's "standards".