What was in the left side of a camelback's cab?

[BF&D]

  -  and how did the engineer see anything off to the left? 

[7j43k]

That would be the employee lounge.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.  It's actually a great question.  

Maybe the head-end brakeman could hang out there.   I doubt the fireman felt it worth his while to make the trek.

The engineer in these cabs pretty much had the same view as on a regular loco.  Better, in a way, since he was more to the front and could see around the smokebox a little more.  I s'pose if there was someone on the left side, he could yell over to the engineer.

Ed

[tomikawaTT]

My guess would be a gage glass, a set of trycocks and two seats.  The one facing forward would be available for a student engineer or the Road Foreman of Engines (or any other supervisory type with an interest in track condition.)  The backward-facing seat would give the head end brakeman the same kind of view available from a tender-deck doghouse.

As far as a view forward, the Mother Hubbard put the engineer higher and farther forward, which gave him a slightly better vantage point.

One thing to remember; a road engineer needed to see signals and track conditions at a reasonable braking distance in front.  He didn't need a panoramic view of the scenery since the loco would follow the rails wherever they went.  Switching was different.  Then, the engineer needed to keep track of people and switchstand indications.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964.

[richg1998]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelback_locomotive

The real issue for the driver was the possibility of the siderod coming up thought the floorboard.

Rich

[BF&D]

Oooh, that smarts.

Gotcha covered on those naps   -   like the Apple fan boys say, there's a nap for that.

[BRAKIE]

The headbrakeman would be in the cab and I suspect the fireman would be seated when not working his fire since most divisions was 100 miles long back in the day.After all standing 12-16 hours while covering that 100 miles wasn't  something any fireman would care to do.

As far as the engineer's view as long as he could see signals and whistle posts he was good to go.

As far as switching the conductor or the head brakeman would stand on the engineer's side and relay the  signals or he would  ride the roof of a boxcar in order to relay the hand signals to the engineer..If the fireman didn't need to work his fire he would relay the switchman's signals to the engineer.

[7j43k]

Well, we've talked a lot about this.  Maybe someone (volunteers???) should go LOOK at one.  There's, for example, one at the B&O museum.  Here's some shots of the cab:

It looks like the left side of the cab was pretty empty.  There may be a seat towards the back of the cab, and it may face rearward for the brakie.  I wonder if the fireman had a jumpseat at his work location.  It would sure be more efficient than having him move back and forth on a moving loco.  And safer.  Especially if he had to do it on this bad boy:

So, after the rain lets up, I want someone to go to Baltimore and report back!

Ed

[richg1998]

It should be obvious from your photos that the driver did not see out the other side. Same in the below link for the Mother Hubbard, 1904 photo. The boiler is in the way. It also describes how the fireman would get into the cab.

There was probably a seat on the left side of the boiler.

Try emailing the B&O museum or join the volunteer group.

http://www.huroncolib.org/RailroadPictures

Rich

[richg1998]

Rarely would the fireman go into the cab when underway. He had a lot of shoveling to do. That is why many of these locos had two firebox doors. Hard coal locos required a wide fire bed because hard coal is slow burning.

Rich

[7j43k]

richg1998

It should be obvious from your photos that the driver did not see out the other side. 

Yup, it's pretty much stated in the original question.  Aside from a cab-forward, there aren't too many steamers that allow a view to the left.

Ed

[BRAKIE]

richg1998

Rarely would the fireman go into the cab when underway. He had a lot of shoveling to do. That is why many of these locos had two firebox doors. Hard coal locos required a wide fire bed because hard coal is slow burning.

Rich

.

A steam engine didn't require constant shoveling as many believe unless the coal was more slate then coal.

Once the required steam pressure  was reached a fireman wouldn't need to keep shoveling because the last thing he would want is for the pops to lift since that meant he was above the required psi.

 

[Juniatha]

As far - and I when I write far I really mean f-a-r - as I've heard from people usually informed in mind-boggling ways , there was a cross tunnel passage inserted into the boiler of Camel-Backs through which the en.. uhm driver used to crawl to see the other side .   The 'hole in the whole of the boiler' needed to be kept pretty small for reasons hard to see in actual service yet obvious to the average steam loco fan , causing some drivers to speak of having to "break-on through to the other side" - which by the way much later inspired singer song writer Jim Morrison when composing a rock song by the same name . But that was when the last of Camel-Backs had long since been broken up and was way through to the other side - and so , although the rythm of the song was quite driving no amout of smoking cigarettes of the same brand could bring back a Camel-Back .

Well .. never mind ..

  = J =  

[dehusman]

Juniatha

As far - and I when I write far I really mean f-a-r - as I've heard from people usually informed in mind-boggling ways , there was a cross tunnel passage inserted into the boiler of Camel-Backs through which the en.. uhm driver used to crawl to see the other side .

snip

 , although the rythm of the song was quite driving no amout of smoking cigarettes of the same brand could bring back a Camel-Back .

Methinks whoever said there was a tunnel through the boiler is smoking something other than tobacco.  8-)

Dave H. 

[maxman]

BRAKIE

The headbrakeman would be in the cab and I suspect the fireman would be seated when not working his fire since most divisions was 100 miles long back in the day.After all standing 12-16 hours while covering that 100 miles wasn't  something any fireman would care to do.

From what information I can gather off the net, the fireman was never in the cab with the engineer when the engine was in operation.  See: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090922093855AAvPZHe and http://www.american-rails.com/camelback-steam-locomotives.html.

Incidently, the second link contains another link to a youtube video showing some early Reading diesel, steam loco, and camelbacks in operation.  I believe that there are a couple camelbacks sitting around the turntable at the beginning, the first one shown in operation is around 4:53 in.  Around 5:52 in you can see the camelback running in reverse.  look closely and you'll see the fireman shoveling away between the engine and tender.  At about 7:39 one of the units is pulling a coach.

 

[BRAKIE]

Now we see a fast clip in a video which is nice however,I suspect the fireman did take a seat in the cab when the steam was up to pressure since there would be no need to shovel..I also suspect these trips to the cab was for a short rest again when the steam was up to pressure or perhaps during a whoa up for a meet..

Of course if there was a lot of slate in the coal then he may have to shovel all day since such poor grade of coal would make it hard to obtain and maintain the required psi.

Also if the yard crew was kicking cars the fireman had his work cut out for him.

 

[maxman]

BRAKIE

Now we see a fast clip in a video which is nice however,I suspect the fireman did take a seat in the cab when the steam was up to pressure since there would be no need to shovel..

I don't know, because obviously those things were gone before I became interested in trains.  However, while you may be correct, all of the literature associated with those links indicates that:

"the fireman was left exposed to the elements back by the firebox, where of course he had to remain to feed fuel to the locomotive.  Due to these safety issues the Interstate Commerce Commission began to seriously look at the hazards Camelback steam locomotives exposed to train crews and by 1927 the agency had completely banned new or rebuilt locomotives which featured the Camelback design."

I guess we'd need to find (or, this being halloween, maybe I should say dig up) an old camelback crew to determine what actually occurred. 

Edit:  It also occurs to me that the area where the fireman is shoveling is where the locomotive boiler backhead is located (I think).  Isn't this where all the gages and the boiler water glass that the fireman is supposed to watch would be located?  If the fireman moves up with the engineer, who watches the water level to keep the boiler from exploding?

[BRAKIE]

 It also occurs to me that the area where the fireman is shoveling is where the locomotive boiler backhead is located (I think).  Isn't this where all the gages and the boiler water glass that the fireman is supposed to watch would be located?  If the fireman moves up with the engineer, who watches the water level to keep the boiler from exploding?

----------------------------------------

Good question but,I suspect there was at least a pressure gage on the fireman's side-at least if the steam pressure started falling the head brakeman would realize something is seriously wrong and would investigate..Nothing stopping a fireman from losing his balance and falling off the engine or he could have a heart attack.

As far as information on the camelbacks I fear  the best information is lost with the passing of the men who fired those things 8-16 hours a day..

I know there are things my Grandfathers told me about running a steam locomotives I never read in books or magazine articles.My dad fired a steam engine but,wasn't promoted to the right hand seat until being trained to run a diesel in  '55.

There's a lot of railroad speak covering a steamer as well such as "blowing my fire out the stack",a tender full of "slate run coal"  and "blowing holes in the fire" that probably died with those men that ran or fired a locomotive 8-16 hours a day.I know one involves jerking the throttle open and  spining the drivers while kicking cars..

[Atlantic and Hibernia]

There was a description of a ride in the unused fireman's side of a Long Island RR camelback in the book, Rails to the Rising Sun.  A reporter was invited to ride on a high speed run eastward on Long Island.  He was startled to see the fireman enter the small compartment as something (the reporter did not say what) needed to be lubricated.  Otherwise the cab remained empty the entire time.

The loss of a siderod and it tearing off the engineer's cab, along with the engineer, was of course a danger but there was a far more insidious and persistent hazard when operating a camelback.  There was no communication between engineer and fireman.  I am told, and this is unconfirmed, that engineers suffered heart attacks, or perhaps passed out from the heat, and the engine just kept on running with no one even knowing the throttle was unattended.  Even under normal operating conditions the lack of communication could create hazardous conditions.

Kevin

[BRAKIE]

One would be surprise of the information  a few phone calls can bring when made to the right people..

The left side of the cab was for the head brakeman and the fireman had a small fold down seat so,he could rest when he wasn't shoveling..There was a place to hang a spare shovel and the clinker bar on the bulkhead of the tender..

Communication was by shouting back and forth and by hand signals..

[rrinker]

 Somewhere in browsing the old accident records I do recall running across one that was indeed caused by the engineer becoming incapacitated and no one the wiser until it was too late to stop. At least, that's what the accident investigation reported. I tried to dig it up but I can't find the exact one I remember in the old ICC reports.

                  --Randy