This question may seem pretty simple for the TT/TO experts out there, but has me confused. My layout is inspired as a proto-freelance branch of the SR. The main in that area was TT/TO operated during the era I'm modeling. There were train order signals at the key stations (semaphore). But what would be used to control train movements off a branch into the main? The one copy of a timetable I have shows the branchline trains time from the end of the branch to the next town on the main, but the times listed seem totally unrealistic to make that trip in.
So I guess what I'm wondering is, if the train is late to the junction (after it was already due to the station), how could it get back to home from an isolated rural junction?
Thanks all,
jim
jmbjmb The main in that area was TT/TO operated during the era I'm modeling. There were train order signals at the key stations (semaphore). But what would be used to control train movements off a branch into the main?
The main in that area was TT/TO operated during the era I'm modeling. There were train order signals at the key stations (semaphore). But what would be used to control train movements off a branch into the main?
TT&TO.
A train is either a regular train with a timetable schedule, in which case it would have recieved a clearance form at the junction or with its clearance/orders on the branch, or its an extra and would be given running orders at a train order office at the junction or when it got its orders on the branch.
By the way, be careful how you use the term "the main". The train will be on the "main track" when its running on the branch too. So rules that apply to the "main track" apply to the "branch" as well. Its best to call the tracks by their subdivision names.
The one copy of a timetable I have shows the branchline trains time from the end of the branch to the next town on the main, but the times listed seem totally unrealistic to make that trip in.
Then it would run late.
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Don't understand the question. You have to be clearer on what direction you are going and where the train is. Which station (the junction is a station)? Are you talking about a "station" ( a place named in the timetable) or "depot" (a building) . Is the junction an open train order office? (look in the column next to the station names, if there is a two letter code next to the junction name then there was a train order office there.)
If the train is a regular train, and it gets to the junction late then that means its late. That's all. Is there a schedule in the other direction on the branch then the train just gets a clearance at the junction of the last train order office it passes before the junction, and goes onto the branch assuming the schedule in the other direction.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
One point which might make things easier to understand:
A TTTO-era timetable wasn't like a TV schedule. Timetable authority at a control point began at a scheduled time. The numbered train could leave any time AFTER that time, but never before. That window would be open for twelve hours. If there were no other scheduled or extra trains on that stretch of track during that period, no train orders would be required/issued.
If the train couldn't depart within that twelve hour window it would lose its timetable authority. It would have to complete its run as an extra, under train order authority.
Thus it would be entirely possible for departure times at successive control points to appear to require Shinkansen or TGV speeds from a steam powered peddler. In fact, they simply indicated that said peddler would have clear track when it DID depart, minutes or hours late.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - TTTO, 24/30)
tomikawaTT A TTTO-era timetable wasn't like a TV schedule. Timetable authority at a control point began at a scheduled time.
A TTTO-era timetable wasn't like a TV schedule. Timetable authority at a control point began at a scheduled time.
A TT&TO timetable schedule isn't like CTC, there are no control points. Timetable authority begins when the timetable goes into effect. A train cannot depart a station prior to its sheduled departing time.
The numbered train could leave any time AFTER that time, but never before. That window would be open for twelve hours. If there were no other scheduled or extra trains on that stretch of track during that period, no train orders would be required/issued.
A regular train, one who has a schedule in the timetable, cannot leave prior to the time listed in the schedule. A schedule is in effect for twelve hours from the time shown for that station in the timetable.
If train orders are _required_ at any time for regular trains. They are only required to run extra trains, to move extra trains with respect to each other or if the dispatcher wants to modify the rights of trains.
Control points are only in CTC, they do not apply to TT&TO. If the schedule is aggressive the train just runs late. It won't affect superior trains one bit. Only inferior trains and extras are affected by a late regular train. If the dispatcher needs to advance an inferior train against a late superior train, he will issue train orders giving th inferior train rights over the superior train (either rights or a meet).
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Correct..
I'll add TT/TO operated with mile post instead of CP points.However,some sidings would have names but,those names would not appear on Form 19s.
The TT would have (say) Millers Creek and the length of the siding(if any) followed by the mile post.
Millers Creek 2580' MP 434.5..
or
Millers Creek .... MP.434.5
Even modern ETT gives that information.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Thanks for the answers so far. Sorry I wasn't more clear. I'll try to do better. The division runs from A to B to C. There are operator stations at A and C. The branch leaves the division at B going to D. B is rural and there is no operator at B. Also, the junction is not interlocked. The branchline mixed runs west from A to B then to D on the branch in the morning then returns east from D to B to A in the afternoon. The timetable specifically states that the train may leave D without a clearance card.
So, since there are no operators, except at A and C, how will the crew of the mixed know that higher class trains have successfully cleared before they throw the switch? Likewise, how would the dispatcher or any other engineer know the mixed was now back on the division? There is no communication with the crew since they left A in the morning as best I can tell from the timetable and lack of manned stations at B and D.
Hope this makes better sense. If I could figure out how to post a drawing, I would.
Thanks again,
No radio on the train?
I pre-radio days, there would probably be a telephone at B and one at D also. The phone would be in a locked telephone box or booth.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
how will the crew of the mixed know that higher class trains have successfully cleared before they throw the switch?
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You just don't enter the main track without permission from the DS or tower operator that controls that section of track.You would stop short of the branch line switch fouling point,walk to the line phone box,unlock the phone box(uses a standard switch lock) and ring up the DS or tower operator and get authority to enter the main.The DS or operator will add your train to his sheet and the time you entered the main..The time you entered the main is the time you called for authority to enter the main.He will issue any special orders he has for your train at that time.
BTW..If the train was long the head brakeman could make the call and receive authority and any special orders.A copy of the orders would be left in the phone box and a second stop would be made for the conductor or rear brakeman to close and lock the switch and pick up their copy of the orders..The conductor will know there was orders because the head brakeman left the phone box door open.The conductor or rear brakeman would swing off the caboose or combine to pick up the orders,closed and lock the phone box and then proceeed to the switch.
Of course the coming of the radio changed all that.
jmbjmb Thanks for the answers so far. Sorry I wasn't more clear. I'll try to do better. The division runs from A to B to C. There are operator stations at A and C. The branch leaves the division at B going to D. B is rural and there is no operator at B.
Thanks for the answers so far. Sorry I wasn't more clear. I'll try to do better. The division runs from A to B to C. There are operator stations at A and C. The branch leaves the division at B going to D. B is rural and there is no operator at B.
I will assume you are talking about D when you say "B is rural...."
Also, the junction is not interlocked. The branchline mixed runs west from A to B then to D on the branch in the morning then returns east from D to B to A in the afternoon. The timetable specifically states that the train may leave D without a clearance card. So, since there are no operators, except at A and C, how will the crew of the mixed know that higher class trains have successfully cleared before they throw the switch?
Also, the junction is not interlocked. The branchline mixed runs west from A to B then to D on the branch in the morning then returns east from D to B to A in the afternoon. The timetable specifically states that the train may leave D without a clearance card.
So, since there are no operators, except at A and C, how will the crew of the mixed know that higher class trains have successfully cleared before they throw the switch?
We don't know the class of the train you are talking about, but since you said it was a mixed that implies first or second class.
We will assume that there are no superior trains on the branch, its the biggest dog in the fight because the train actually has the exact same problem going from the main line to the branch, same rules apply. It can't enter the branch unless it knows all superior trains due have arrived. If its the most superior train on the branch then that point becomes moot.
As others have said they would call the dispatcher to make sure the superior trains have arrived. The questions that arises now are: What is the class of the mixed train? What is the direction of the mixed train? What is the superior direction?
If its a first class train and in the superior direction then other trains have to keep out of its way.
The only place a train requires verbal permission of the dispatcher or control operator to enter the main is in CTC. Since this is not CTC then there is no requirement to talk to the dispatcher per se. The clearance and the schedule are authority to operate on the main track.
Another question would be how many other opposing superior trains are there on the sub? If the only open TO stations are A or C, the dispatcher won't know if opposing superior trains are past until they get to C.
Is B a register station (I doubt it is)? If it was, the train wouldn't have to talk to the dispatcher, they could check the register.
My guess on the operation is that B is not a register station, there are opposing superior trains and that the mixed has to stop and call the dispatcher for a "Check of Trains" order (it could be form T, U or V, the letter of the form varies by railroad, but its at the end of the forms of train orders). That does a couple things, first it lets the mixed meet the requirements of Rule 83 and it provides the dispatcher with an "OS"
Likewise, how would the dispatcher or any other engineer know the mixed was now back on the division? There is no communication with the crew since they left A in the morning as best I can tell from the timetable and lack of manned stations at B and D.
The dispatcher has a real problem in both directions, not only the return trip, but the trip from A to D too. If its a regular train, how does he know the train has arrived at B? For example if the mixed is a first class train and there is an opposing extra from C to A, the extra can't go past B until it knows the mixed has arrived. The dispatcher has no way of knowing the mixed arrived at B on the trip from A to D.
He also has an issue with inferior trains running from A to C after the mixed is due at B on the D to A leg. Since he has no communiction with the mixed, he can't give an opposing inferior train right over the mixed to B since he has no way to restrict the mixed after it departs A
My guess is that there are probably other instructions (General Orders or General Notices) that require the train to notify the dispatcher when a train on the branch in either direction arrives at B.
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Indeed..This information is usually found in the ETT train operation instructions for the branch.
The same would require the conductor to notify the DS or tower operator he has cleared the main and has entered the branch and the (say) Newton switch is lined and locked for the main track...His train is now on os'd off the main line as entered the (say) Newton branch at (say) 9:07 AM on 08/05/55.Now that man has no authority to be on the main and will proceed under TT authority up the branch.
BRAKIE The same would require the conductor to notify the DS or tower operator he has cleared the main and has entered the branch and the (say) Newton switch is lined and locked for the main track...
The same would require the conductor to notify the DS or tower operator he has cleared the main and has entered the branch and the (say) Newton switch is lined and locked for the main track...
This is a more modern concept of notifying the dispatcher that the switches were lined for the main track. Not so much before the 1970's.
His train is now on os'd off the main line as entered the (say) Newton branch at (say) 9:07 AM on 08/05/55.Now that man has no authority to be on the main and will proceed under TT authority up the branch.
Just don't want there to be the idea tha the dispatcher "grants" authority to a regular train or takes it away. The authority is the schedule. From the moment the timetable goes in effect the train was granted authority. The only way to take the authority away is to annul the train. The dispatcher uses train orders to change the superiority of trains, but doesn't change their authority (except to annul them). With an extra, as soon as the running order is complete the train has authority over the entire route on the order.
Its not that authority on the "main" has been taken away, it has been fulfilled. Subtley different concept.
In classic TT&TO operations the crews rarely talked to the dispatcher. Its only after the railroads started cutting back on operators and shutting down train order stations that the dispatchers had to talk to the train crews.
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That's news to me since we had to notify either the Tower Operator or the Columbus dispatcher that the switch was relined for the main when I worked on the PRR.
If not then the following train would need to stop and check the alignment of the switch since nobody knows which way the thing is lined.
The examples I gave is what I learned while braking on the PRR when entering or leaving a industrial branch that was under TT authority.We would use TT authority to operate on the branch and anything less then a emergency we was nor required to contact the dispatcher.
Even with radios we would still "ring" a tower operator for permission to enter the main.
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.After you enter the Branch you have no authority to operate on the main after all you "cleared" the main by entering the branch.You been OS off the main and on to the branch..
Reenter the main without permission and see how fast your employment as a railroader ends.
Its that simple.
Authority means you have a right to operate over a given section of track if that authority is revoke you best be in the clear.
BRAKIE That's news to me since we had to notify either the Tower Operator or the Columbus dispatcher that the switch was relined for the main when I worked on the PRR.
The PRR rules are a bit different than many others (much like the SP).
In classic rules there is not requirement to notify anybody that switches are lined and locked. The fact that there is a "tower operator" means you are operating under a different set of circumstances than the scenario presented. Not saying you are wrong, but the scenario presented will be operating under different rules.
For example you were probably operating in block signal territory while on the "main line". Those are different rules than a purely timetable and train order territory. On the PRR only branches were TT&TO and the rest of the main was multiple track block signal territory.
It will be lined for main track because rule 104 requires it. While you may have notified the tower operator because you were in block signal territory, the majority of rule books didn't require that in other than CTC and it hasn't been until the last decade or so that the Federal Government required it.
Did you notify the dispatcher every time you opened or closed a switch on the industrial lead? Probably not because it isn't required in TT&TO territory.
You did that because it was block signal territory. The scenario under discussion is not block signal territory. The PRR rules require trains to notify the operators when they exit or enter a block.
After you enter the Branch you have no authority to operate on the main after all you "cleared" the main by entering the branch.You been OS off the main and on to the branch. Reenter the main without permission and see how fast your employment as a railroader ends.
You are correct, but under the scenario presented it is a bit difference. Under TT&TO you don't get "permission" to enter the main track, that's a CTC/Block signal system concept. On the PRR there were two different methods of operation. That's what my comments are pointing out. The operation under TT&TO was different. The rules you used on the "main line" were not applicable on the "main line" in the OP's scenario.
And that's a big difference in TT&TO operation, authority is given once for the entire trip and unless the train is annuled its not "revoked". If the train goes in a siding, if it clears the main, if it hold the siding, it has a meet, if it has a wait, it has the same authority at the beginning of the trip as at the end. The dispatcher conveys no additional authority once the train is authorized out of the initial terminal.
If you aren't in something OTHER THAN timetable and train order, yes the authority can be granted incrementally.
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Don't bet your life on it becaused if you lose you may end up in a closed casket...Not a pleasent thought for any railroader.
Human error could have raised its ugly head and the switch could be lined for the branch-that has happen with terrible results that's why PRR required you to inform the grovern Tower or DS the switch is locked and lined for the main track...
Remember that man that is approaching the switch will have no way of knowing which way the switch is lined no more then the Tower man or DS.
Thank you all once again. I wonder if the call box or something might be the answer?? To answer a couple of questions being asked, as best as I have information.
dehusman I will assume you are talking about D when you say "B is rural...."
Sorry, what I was trying to say was B is really rural, no town, or anything, so there was no station, tower or operator. I suppose there could have been a call box there.
dehusman We don't know the class of the train you are talking about, but since you said it was a mixed that implies first or second class. We will assume that there are no superior trains on the branch, its the biggest dog in the fight because the train actually has the exact same problem going from the main line to the branch, same rules apply. It can't enter the branch unless it knows all superior trains due have arrived. If its the most superior train on the branch then that point becomes moot. Another question would be how many other opposing superior trains are there on the sub? If the only open TO stations are A or C, the dispatcher won't know if opposing superior trains are past until they get to C.
The train is 2nd class going from A to D, heading west, but is 3rd class returning east. Most of the time it is the only train on the branch, at least in the era I’m looking at. The only others were the occasional work train or speeder, once a month or so.
dehusman Is B a register station (I doubt it is)? If it was, the train wouldn't have to talk to the dispatcher, they could check the register. One last question, is the line from A to C single track with no block signals or could it be double track ABS, rule 251 current of traffic?
The timetable lists B as a register station for first class trains only. I’m not sure what a register is or how it works.
The line is single track and as best I can find out, the only signals were at the train order stations.
What makes this frustrating is while growing up, my best friend’s dad was conductor on the branch, but he’s been gone for years so I can’t ask him and the branch itself was pulled up 35 years ago so even physical traces have disappeared. We went back this summer for the first time in years and found the mills were gone, even towns have disappeared. Someone coined the term “re-wilding” to describe how the area is returning to wilderness. That’s part of what motivates my railroad, to capture not just trains, but a unique part of American culture that has disappeared.
Thank you everyone very much for the discussion.
BRAKIE Don't bet your life on it becaused if you lose you may end up in a closed casket...Not a pleasent thought for any railroader.
But that's how it worked in dark territory for a hundred years.
And I don't disagree.
The question I have for you is, once you got on the "branch", in TT&TO territory, did you have to call the dispatcher or a tower operator every time you opened or closed a switch? (not the "main", not the junction, but on the branch itself).
I will bet that the answer is no.
All I can tell you is in my experience there was no requirement, in dark TT&TO (or track warrant territory), for the crews to notify the dispatcher about the positions of switches they had used.
jmbjmb The train is 2nd class going from A to D, heading west, but is 3rd class returning east. Most of the time it is the only train on the branch, at least in the era I’m looking at. The only others were the occasional work train or speeder, once a month or so.
By arranging it that way the train going from A to D has superiority over the returning train. That lets the A to D train run at will out the branch. The 3rd class train won't run until the 2nd class train gets there, so that lets the third class train run at will down the branch.
A register is a book that the trains sign as evidence they have arrived.
Are there any other scheduled trains (other than the mixed 2nd & 3rd class trains) or first class trains (are there any other 2nd or 3rd class trains?)
If there weren't anything besides first class trains, then the way the junction would work is the train would stop at the junction, check the register against the time table. If there was a superior train due that hadn't signed the register, the mixed will have to wait for that superior train. If not the mixed can go. The register is the evidence to meet the requirements of rule 83. The mixed train would not have to talk to the dispatcher or any operator (unless there are other requirements).
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You win the bet..
Whatcha win?
Just when we entered or left the branch.
As far as those 100 years look at the accidents they had-not very safe I would think.
BTW..The only dark territory I worked on was industrial or mine branch lines and we was the only train.Also several of the industrial branch lines in Columbus had dwarf (PRR term pots) signal protecting the main.We would still need to ring the tower man or radio the DS for authorization to enter the main.
The best aspect on the pot was approach.
dehusman Are there any other scheduled trains (other than the mixed 2nd & 3rd class trains) or first class trains (are there any other 2nd or 3rd class trains?) If there weren't anything besides first class trains, then the way the junction would work is the train would stop at the junction, check the register against the time table. If there was a superior train due that hadn't signed the register, the mixed will have to wait for that superior train. If not the mixed can go. The register is the evidence to meet the requirements of rule 83. The mixed train would not have to talk to the dispatcher or any operator (unless there are other requirements).
The timetable shows three first class and three second class westbound and three first class, two second class and one third class east bound all in addition to the one we're discussing. As best I can tell, two of the first class trains should pass shortly after it enters the branch and just before it returns. There is also one due roughly an hour after it should have returned from the branch. Thank you for the information on register book. Don't think I' recall that discussed in the articles on operations. So what would happen is trains would stop to check the book and the book would tell them whether it was safe to proceed? Thanks all, this whole discussion is a good learning opportunity.
So what would happen is trains would stop to check the book and the book would tell them whether it was safe to proceed?
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Yes,if all trains register when entering or leaving the branch..The human error factor
A quick check of the ETT would confirm if any trains would be approaching..
Also if a train is running late a form 19 should have been received at the interlock tower or station that controls this branch advising of a pending meet with the late train....
TT/TO was not the safest method of railroad operation as railroad history will prove several times over simply because of the human error that was involved due to long working hours.
jmbjmb The timetable shows three first class and three second class westbound and three first class, two second class and one third class east bound all in addition to the one we're discussing.
The timetable shows three first class and three second class westbound and three first class, two second class and one third class east bound all in addition to the one we're discussing.
That complicates things. According to the information you have only the first class trains register, which means the 2nd & 3rd class don't. If the train comes back as a 3rd class train, that makes it inferior to the 2nd class trains and would have to clear their times. The returning 3rd class mixed would still need to know where the opposing 2nd class trains are if they are due at the junction in the previous 12 hours.
So what would happen is trains would stop to check the book and the book would tell them whether it was safe to proceed? Thanks all, this whole discussion is a good learning opportunity.
Your register station is unique in that only 1st class trains register. Normally there is a register at the beginning and terminating station on a train's run. Normally all trains, regular and extra, register. At major junctions or an intermediate terminal where trains originate, there may be a register also. At those locations all trains must stop and register giving the train id (schedule number or extra address), engine number time and conductor/engineer, plus what signals the train is displaying and order number (if required, more on that later). At places where there were manned offices, the special instructions might let trains register by "ticket". The train would drop off a form or ticket, with the register information that the operator would transcribe into the register. Those trains would not have to check the register.
An extra train had to register, but the entry could not be used as evidence that the train had arrived unless there was an order. That's because an extra is identified by engine number and the RR could use the same engine to run multiple trips in a day, so there was no way to tell if the register entry was the first or third trip of the that engine. In order to let trains check the register for an extra the dispatcher would issue and order instructing the extra to register or telling other trains they can check the register for the extra. When the extra registered it would write the order number on the register so everybody would know that was the trip that could be checked against. A regular train can only run one schedule per day and the schedule is only good for 12 hours so their is no danger of confusing regular trains.
If a train was running as a section, all but the last section would be carrying green signals so all but the last would write "Green" in the signals column. Extra trains carry white signals so they would write "White" in the signals column. Regular trains wouldn't display signals so they would leave the column blank or write "None" in the signals column.
The register book was used mostly by trains entering a subdivision at an intermediate point or originating at an intermediate point.