Here's the situation. The main has CTC. Some distance along this main, there is an interhange with a branch of the same railroad. This branch is operated by TT&TO.
What I'm trying to figure out is how such handoffs were made. At the junction there are several sidings for cars to be set out for the branch, however looking at some timetables it seems there was at least one scheduled turn that left the main and went up the branch each day, in addition to any other traffic on the branch, which, being Extras, wouldn't have been listed. So how was such transistion handled?
My guess is that thee road crew would pull into the clear off the main and report such, then call for orders at the manned station located there - correct? Armed with orders and knowledge of the timetable (cheating here in my head because this turn would be the only scheduled train on the branch, far as I can tell), the turn could then proceed up teh branch and watcht he order signals at each manned station.
Is that about it, and I'm overthinking it, or would there really be more to it?
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Like a lot of things, it depends on your prototype and era. If there's an open TO office at the junction, extra trains for the branch could have had orders waiting for them once they arrived, but it's also possible orders could be issued at another location authorizing movement onto the branch, which could of course be superseded at some point. It's also possible a crew could be required to call in at the junction and copy their own orders if there's no open office with an operator on duty.
Rob Spangler
The train crew would be picking up paperwork for the CTC portion of the trip, probably a clearance and train orders detailing any slow orders, at its originating station. It is easy enough for the train crew to pick up the clearance and the running and slow orders for the branch at the same time. If the level of traffic on the branch justified a manned station, and meets with other trains arranged, then of course the train would probably not get its orders for the branch until it reached the junction.
Sometimes at a junction there would be a small booth or shack with a register book. If the branch had scheduled trains (many only had "Extras") the crew would have to check the register to confirm that any opposing train had already arrived. They would also enter their own train information and sign it.
Somewhat simplified, but hopefully it helps.
John
Far as I know, the branch had 3 stations marked in the timetable as train order stations - one a the junction of the main, one about the middl, near a small classification yard, and one at the far end which was a yard an interchange with other railroads. I was going to verify it in my timetable but the one I have handy here is a different division, I know it's listed in there, even if the timetable is a few years newer than my preferred era. Unless I find out thing were vastly different, I'm following the one I have.
What I suppose I need is some other paperwork, because the two scheduled turns surely could not have handled all of the traffic on the branch. Certainly notbefore trucks took over the transport of cement. Pictures of that plant show dozens of cars at any given time, and that'sonly 1 of many industries ont he branch. Plus the one turn at least also handled a second branch on its way out and back. I was told the turn actually went up the branch and handled the trains right to the customers, but I have a feeling it may have just gone to the junction and swapped cars there.
I am not above altering things, so long as they are reasonably prototypical. My plan is to follow actual practices as much as possible but adjustments to make model operation more fun are not out of the question.
Plus - I am going about this - I don't want to say backwards, because I kinda think it makes more sense - by figuring out operations before I've even drawn a track plan - or found space for one, for that matter. I'm always thinkign ahead to the next layout, although my hope is to find a real 'permanent' home and build the "big one" next, hence all my planning.
Which branch?
Give us some details and we might be able to help you.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
My guess is that thee road crew would pull into the clear off the main and report such, then call for orders at the manned station located there - correct?
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The train would enter the branch by time table authority-the interlock tower operator(or dispatcher) would line them up the branch and would os the train as on the branch and any special orders would have been on the daily train sheet for that branch with instructions to pick up orders(if any) at the first station-when the train approach the station the engineer would whistle and if the station's train order signal was up the train would proceed on under TT authority.
A extra train would already have authority to enter the branch by train order and would operate under TT guide lines for extra trains.
Just because there was manned station there is no reason to expect orders unless signaled by the operator.If the train order signal was in the"stop" position then the train would receive orders by hoop unless govern by the TT to make a absolute stop until the orders are received by the engineer-the conductor would receive his copy by hoop as the caboose rolled by..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
rrinker Here's the situation. The main has CTC. Some distance along this main, there is an interhange with a branch of the same railroad. This branch is operated by TT&TO.
Just so you don't confuse things later, its not an interchange, its a junction. An interchange is where two different railroads exchange cars. How a train operates therough an interchanges is different than how a train operates through a junction.
Without knowing the branch and the railroad there are multiple possibilities.
1. Same crew, same train, orders early (can be regular or extra).
The dispatcher gives the train whatever orders it needs for the branch and clearnce for the branch out of origin. The train enters the branch, picks up any orders it needs at the TO office at the junction runs up the branch, gets any orders required at the other offices, gets back to the CTC main, gets any orders to enter the CTC main, then enters on signal indication or verbal authority and goes on its merry way.
2. Same crew, same train, orders late (can be regular or extra).
The dispatcher gives the train whatever orders and a clearance it needs for the CTC main out of origin. The train enters the branch, picks up any orders and a clearance it needs at the TO office at the junction runs up the branch, gets any orders required at the other offices, gets back to the CTC main, gets any orders to enter the CTC main, then enters on signal indication or verbal authority and goes on its merry way.
3. Different crew, same train (can be regular or extra).
The dispatcher gives the train whatever orders it needs for the CTC portion out of origin. At the junction the "CTC" crew gets off, the "Branch" crew gets on with orders and clearance for the branch they recieved at the juntion TO office. The train runs up the branch, gets any orders required at the other offices, gets back to the CTC main. The "branch" crew gets off, the "CTC" crew gets on with any orders and a clearance for the CTC main they recieved at the junction TO office, then enters on signal indication or verbal authority and goes on its merry way.
4. Different train (can be regular or extra).
The trains on the CTC main set out cars in the tracks. The agent/operator/dispatcher tells the trains on the CTC main what cars to pick up oat the junction.
The trains on the branch operate to the junction, they set out the cars going to the CTC main and then pick up the cars the agent/operator/dispatcher tells them to pick up at the junction.
My guess is that thee road crew would pull into the clear off the main and report such,
No need if its CTC, the dispatcher knows when he's clear from the CTC panel.
then call for orders at the manned station located there - correct?
Depends, is the train doing work at the junction? if the train is doing some work that will take yours he may find out the work to be done, tell the dispatcher/opertor how long it will take and then the dispatcher will cut orders for him. If its a regular train (in the timetable then all the train needs is any orders and a clearance for the branch, which the operator and dispatcher will already have prepared. In most cases, if its a regular train, the only thing it would get is a clearance, with no orders.
Armed with orders and knowledge of the timetable (cheating here in my head because this turn would be the only scheduled train on the branch, far as I can tell), the turn could then proceed up teh branch and watcht he order signals at each manned station.
Essentially yes.
Maybe. If its a Reading branch and there are no other train on the branch, the train could just leave the main, set the "Train on Branch" signal to stop and then run at will on the branch.
One other caveat, on the Reading the only "main line" was from Pottsville, PA to Philadelphia and then from Philadelphia to Bound Brook, NJ. ALL other lines were branches, no matter how much tonnage they carried, how main trains they operated , whether they were CTC, double track or TT&TO.
Also don't confuse "main line" with "main track". Main line is a route. Main track is a rules thing, the track that extends through yards and between stations. Branch lines have a main track.
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Ineed..The main track is railroad speak for "main line".I never heard the main called anything other then the "main" when I worked on the railroad.If there was double track it became known as simply #1 or #2 track-we knew which was which-either track could be operated bidirectional with the proper authorization and at restricted speed unless there was bidirectional signals.
What a lot of modelers fail to realize is you need the interlock operator or dispatcher permision to make a simple run around move on the main.
BRAKIE What a lot of modelers fail to realize is you need the interlock operator or dispatcher permision to make a simple run around move on the main.
Depends on the method of operation. In yard limits or non-CTC signal territory and train orders, you can make a runaround move without dispatcher authority (outside yard limits you would have the have to establish flag protection.)
dehusman BRAKIE: What a lot of modelers fail to realize is you need the interlock operator or dispatcher permision to make a simple run around move on the main. Depends on the method of operation. In yard limits or non-CTC signal territory and train orders, you can make a runaround move without dispatcher authority (outside yard limits you would have the have to establish flag protection.)
BRAKIE: What a lot of modelers fail to realize is you need the interlock operator or dispatcher permision to make a simple run around move on the main.
I know every time we made a run around we needed the authorization from the DS after all we would be out on the main tying things up instead of being in the clear like the DS believes we are and if there are signals then he would need to give us permission by the stop indication or set the signals for our move.Then we needed permission to manually throw his powered switches or he could throw them for us.
As far as yard moves a simple run around may require authorization to occupy the track but,the majority of no authorization was needed.The same applies for other tracks if there is more then one yard crew or if you will be using the runner.We couldn't adventure into the arrival yard without permission either.
Of course with today's railroading such things may have changed especially with the use of R/C yard engines..
Ok, more details - yes, technically they are all branches, since this is East Penn and the C&F I am talking about, plus I figure to have the Kutztown line as well. The Perk might figure in if I have room but probably only as a link out of staging. Reading and the yard will be included, Allentown probably just as staging. I have yet to see a model of Outer STation done, so I'll stick witht he idea tha tbyt he time I get to be able to do this, I will be able to take on such a project. ANd yes, I am looking for a large basement with a house over it - it doesn't have to be HUGE, I'm only looking at single floor homes so as not to have to worry as I get older.
CTC on the East Penn because I want to - making a working NX machine like the one in Oley Tower that controlled out to Alburtis is probably the hardest part and not to many are familair with them so I will probably just go with a more common US&S type. I'd love to have a physical machine eventually but will probably start with JMRI or equivalent to virtualize it.
Now, the timetable I have shows a single turn workign from reading that handled both the Allentown RR to Kutztown and the C&F. I just can't believe with the cement plant operating plus other active online customers, not to mention what the Ironton handled for the cement plant on thie line to interchange at West Catasaqua, that one turn took care of all traffic on the branch, cicra mid 50's. If id did, then I'm making a few changes, but I sort of suspect that what the turn did was go to the junction and pick up and set out cars for the branch. Although a few pictures show the AS16's usually assigned to the turn actually on the branch.
AMbtious plan, yes, but my goal has always been to do the East Penn. I did at one time have the space to do it, but considerations made it more of a freelance design, so I stuck in the C&F to provide more switching opportunities. Circumstances changed before it ever got that far past the planning stage, and with only a small space to build in here, I did just a portion of the C&F. The grand plan for the big one though, is still very possible. Current circumstances leave me with multiple possible ways to have the space needed, and I like to think that I have plenty of years left to actually get something done, even if it all doesn't come together for another 5-10 years.
rrinker Ok, more details - yes, technically they are all branches, since this is East Penn and the C&F I am talking about, plus I figure to have the Kutztown line as well. The Perk might figure in if I have room but probably only as a link out of staging. Reading and the yard will be included, Allentown probably just as staging.
Ok, more details - yes, technically they are all branches, since this is East Penn and the C&F I am talking about, plus I figure to have the Kutztown line as well. The Perk might figure in if I have room but probably only as a link out of staging. Reading and the yard will be included, Allentown probably just as staging.
Very ambitious plan. There would be 5 preferred freights in each direction plus the freights to the connecting branches, plus the coal trains, plus 5 1st class trains plus the passenger train pair to the Perkie.
My first Reading layout was based on the C&F Branch. The Anthracite RRs Technical and Hist Soc. had a two part series on Catasauqua. Lots of great track diagrams and history.
I have yet to see a model of Outer STation done, so I'll stick witht he idea tha tbyt he time I get to be able to do this, I will be able to take on such a project. ANd yes, I am looking for a large basement with a house over it - it doesn't have to be HUGE, I'm only looking at single floor homes so as not to have to worry as I get older.
Another huge project. The RCT&HS had an article in the Bee Line with maps and drawings of Outer Station.
The actual East Penn Branch would have operated by rule 251 current of traffic, but you can make it whatever you want.
Now, the timetable I have shows a single turn workign from reading that handled both the Allentown RR to Kutztown and the C&F.
The 4/28/46 timetable I have shows no scheduled through freights on either the East Penn or the C&F. Only 5 passenger trains on the East Penn.
The C&F only had 2 preferred trains the CAH-5, leaving Catasauqua at 0100 and arriving Rutherford 0540 and the HCA-2 leaving Rutherford 0115 and arriving Cata at 0735. These trains were run as extras. While the data I have is from 1946, it is consistent with other information from the 1950's. There was only 1 pair of preferred freights on the C&F.
Since the C&F is only 14 miles long, I'm sure any on line switching could be handled by the switcher at Catasauqua. There were no sidings of any size on the C&F (longest was 12 45 ft cars) so its not like you could meet trains on the branch.
I just can't believe with the cement plant operating plus other active online customers, not to mention what the Ironton handled for the cement plant on thie line to interchange at West Catasaqua, that one turn took care of all traffic on the branch, cicra mid 50's.
I can believe it, there really weren't that many industries with private sidings and other than the interchanges there weren't any customers at Catasauqua. The Ironton served most of the industries and RDG interchanged with the Ironton (as well as the LNE, CNJ and LV).If you go to the Reading Modeler website (www.readingmodeler.com) it has the 1954 Shippers guide available on line and there are only about 3 private sidings on the whole C&F. The only industry on the whole C&F switched by the Reading that would have generated any significant business would have been the cement plant at Chapman. About the most you would be getting in the way of extras are some coal trains to the cement plants.
I had to freelance the C&F when I modeled it because I realized that there wasn't that much there to support more than a train or two in real life.
If id did, then I'm making a few changes, but I sort of suspect that what the turn did was go to the junction and pick up and set out cars for the branch. Although a few pictures show the AS16's usually assigned to the turn actually on the branch.
The actual operation was a train out of Harrisburg/Rutherford, HCA-2, that ran up the East Penn to Alburtis and then to Catasauqua. It terminated there an came back down the C&F to Alburtis and then back to Rutherford as the CAH-5. Anything at the junction would have come out of Allentown since there was no connection to Catasauqua out of there. The train order offices at Catasauqua and Chapmans were not open 24 hours a day, S office was closed 630a1030a and 1130a-330p and Chapman was closed 730a-1130a and 1230p-430p. So basically they didn't even run trains over the C&F during daylight hours.
Ironically you will have to expand the C&F to gain switching opportunities, rather than compress it. A "prototypical" model would have just a single main track branch, with one industry at the middle (Lehigh Portland Cement) and the end of the line a yard (Catasauqua) with 4 interchanges (Ironton, LV, CNJ, LNE).
My impression is that when you have non-CTC trackage joining CTC trackage, the switch will either be thrown ONLY by the CTC operator or it will be unlocked for local throwing ONLY by the CTC operator.
Larry, Dave, and others, how correct is that impression?
Ed
7j43k My impression is that when you have non-CTC trackage joining CTC trackage, the switch will either be thrown ONLY by the CTC operator or it will be unlocked for local throwing ONLY by the CTC operator. Larry, Dave, and others, how correct is that impression? Ed
On the Chessie(C&O) the DS would line the switch and after we cleared the marked fouling point we would advise the DS we was in the clear and he would reline the switch for the main..On our return trip we would stop short of the fouling point and advise the DS we would like to enter the main and he would line the switch for our move..
Now most branch lines had either a standard signal or dwarf signal protecting the main and when the switch was lined we would get a diverging approach signal.
7j43k My impression is that when you have non-CTC trackage joining CTC trackage, the switch will either be thrown ONLY by the CTC operator or it will be unlocked for local throwing ONLY by the CTC operator.
The switch can be :
Depending on the type of trackage and design of the system it could be any one of those.
In my experience, I have found very few dispatcher "locked' switches. The standard dual control switch on the UP is controlled by the dispatcher but the crew can un lock it and manually operate it, the dispatcher doesn't "unlock" it. Now as soon as the crew starts unlocking it, it shows up on the dispatchers board as being placed in hand throw operation so he sees it.
I know there are other switches the dispatcher has to release for the crew to operate.
Just depends.
I figure I can transistion a few things to make a few more areas of interest ont he C&F portion. There was a mill in Trexlertown, a lumber yard at Walbert (older maps show a siding there - 84 Lumber today), the powder mill (Atlas? North of Walbert where the lien crosses 309, modern photos show cars spotted there for whatever is there now) and then interchange off the Catty end. There is also a team track in Trexlertown that shows at times. About the only thing in Kutztown would be the Agway. The East Penn is the one really lacking switching opportunites. Caloric in Topton would have been still in business, whatever was in Fleetwood occupying the former auto plant, the mill there, and a team track in Blandon. I have to find my timetable, there seem to be differences between the 1946 version and the newer one I have.
Abitious yes, but I think doable, given Catty and ALlentown would be staging and not modeled. Rading would be compressed, no way can I fit the entire shops and yard complex. Outer Station would be compressed as wellm has to be, to fit in something reasonable like 32" radius curves. If room allows I may have some of the street trackage in town, otherwise the other two legs of the wye will simply loop into staging. One possibility I've sketched out has the staging being double ended, so trains can loop right on back - self-resetting for the next session, or with a clear track, continuous running would be possible. I expect this to be literally a lifetime project, I don;t tend to be a fast mover (my 10x12 C&F doesn;t even have all the track down yet, and I've been here 3 years now).
Thank you, Dave and Larry.
Found my timetable, it's a 1967 edition. Per that one, the branch to Kutztown was oeprated with train on branch signals, and the C&F was set up as train order, with the only TO station at Champman. Alburtis is listed as operating under yard limit rules, as it Catty.
Are you sure the hours you list are when the station at Chapman was closed? Sorta doesn;t make sense that it was open between 1 and 2 pm, and closed the rest of the day, then open all night. Looking at others listed in that section of the TT I'm thinking the way the hours are listed are when it's OPEN, M-F 9a-1p and 2p-6p. Close Saturday and Sunday.
rrinker Are you sure the hours you list are when the station at Chapman was closed? Sorta doesn;t make sense that it was open between 1 and 2 pm, and closed the rest of the day, then open all night. Looking at others listed in that section of the TT I'm thinking the way the hours are listed are when it's OPEN, M-F 9a-1p and 2p-6p. Close Saturday and Sunday.
Nope those are the closed times. Catasauqua was open 330p to 630a and then between 1030a and 1130am. Chapman was open 430p to 730am and then between 1130a and 1230p.
Hours of service let operators work a maximum of 9 hours where there was more than one shift . Each station is open18 hours. That is maximum that two shifts of operators can work.