I'm looking at picking up a Walthers Heritage 0-8-0 in N scale for use on my protolanced branch line layout. Were these classes of locos ever uses as road power for local freights? While I model the Boston & Maine, as I take a protolanced approach, I'm curious to know if it was ever done in general.
Modeling the fictional B&M Dowe, NH branch in the early 50's.
A USRA 0-8-0 is a large switcher. Could it be used on a branch line?
I am sure that there may be an example of a large steam switcher out on a branch, but I think the only local work that a 0-8-0 would do would be maybe one station out from a yard. I cannot imagine a 0-8-0 with 6-10 freight cars and caboose on a typical branch line. Now, the Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 would make perfect sense(and it is a great runner as well). And it would fit in with you B&M/New England theme.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Jim,
Thanks for the info, I didn't even consider the weight impact on the rails. Seeing as how a branch would have much lighter rail, it makes sense, and since my layouts only yard is an off stage fiddle yard, it wouldn't make sense to purchase the 0-8-0 as a switcher.
The Spectrum 2-8-0 sounds like a decent alternative, I'll have to see if I can locate one. I do already hacve a pair of Model Power 2-6-0's, one of which I need to renumber. I'm sure the Spectrum model is a much better runner.
Thanks again!
Jason
An 0-8-0 is unsuitable as a road engine.
The 0-8-0 locos were very powerful with their high tractive effort (all the loco's weight is on the drivers) and with drivers typically smaller than road engines, further contributing to traction. However, ...
With no lead wheels to guide it, speeds are restricted since the engine won't track well at speed.
With all weight on the drivers, there is a higher axle loading making it unsuitable for lightly-built tracks. (SP's smallish, obsolete 4-8-0s lasted for more than 50 years until the end of steam just because of their low axle loading provided by 6 axles on the railroad's lightly-built branchlines.)
The firebox isn't large enough to produce sufficient steam at sustained/continuous higher loads and speeds. Switchers were designed to operate under intermittent loads.
The relatively small drivers limit maximum speed, although on most/many shortlines/branchlines this may not be relevant.
Mark
Actually the 0-8-0 could be used on locals especially urban type locals.
I recall seeing a picture of a C&O 0-8-0 running between Catlettsburg and Ashland, Ky on the main line.
The picture is in C&O Power by by Shuster,Huddleston & Staufer.
The 0-8-0 was a locomotive that could be used in transfer,hump,yard,urban local and limited main line local service.
Looking closer at C&O's 0-8-0.
It was a bigger 0-8-0 with greater tractive effort, a higher boiler pressure, a large superheater,and other improvements which means it was a well rounded 0-8-0 suitable for limited tasks beyond the yard or hump.
There was bigger 0-8-0s on other roads as well.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Most roads had very few 0-8-0 locos. The size was almost equivalent to a road engine. Yes they were used as transfer and locals with short runs down the mains but not at speed. More realistic would be an 0-6-0 to a 2-8-0 with a few ancient 2-6-0 locos for locals.
The PRR had a few C1 0-8-0 locos on the roster but they also had 5000 2-8-0 locos. Most crews would rather hand fire and strong arm a 25 year old 2-8-0 over the rough riding brand new stoker fired and power reverse 0-8-0 any day.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
BRAKIE Actually the 0-8-0 could be used on locals especially urban type locals.
I don't disagree, and exceptions are to be expected for every generalization.
The SP had few 0-8-0 locos, but lots of 0-6-0 types. Those six-coupled switchers were used for urban locals, but here distances were very short, serving close-by, urban industries. In a sense, they were extended switching moves. While 0-6-0 types did handle locals to industries in nearby Oakland, Berkeley, and Emervyville for instance, locals to the 30-mile-away San Ramon Branch used 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 types, locals to the further-distant Napa/Vallejo branch might have 2-10-2 types, etc. (These are Oakland-based examples.)
For a "rediculous" example of local passenger service, at one time the Western Pacific used a single RDC unit to provide local passenger service halfway across the North American continent, connecting Oakland, CA to Utah.
locoi1sa Most roads had very few 0-8-0 locos. The size was almost equivalent to a road engine. Yes they were used as transfer and locals with short runs down the mains but not at speed. More realistic would be an 0-6-0 to a 2-8-0 with a few ancient 2-6-0 locos for locals. The PRR had a few C1 0-8-0 locos on the roster but they also had 5000 2-8-0 locos. Most crews would rather hand fire and strong arm a 25 year old 2-8-0 over the rough riding brand new stoker fired and power reverse 0-8-0 any day. Pete
Absolutely..Those C1s wasn't very good and the H9/H10 could out perform them and both was "rough riders" as my Grandfather called 'em.
A light 2-8-2 would look at home on a branch...Infact the PRR and C&O wasn't above putting their 2-8-2s on locals.
markpierce BRAKIE Actually the 0-8-0 could be used on locals especially urban type locals. I don't disagree, and exceptions are to be expected for every generalization. The SP had few 0-8-0 locos, but lots of 0-6-0 types. Those six-coupled switchers were used for urban locals, but here distances were very short, serving close-by, urban industries. In a sense, they were extended switching moves. While 0-6-0 types did handle locals to industries in nearby Oakland, Berkeley, and Emervyville for instance, locals to the 30-mile-away San Ramon Branch used 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 types, locals to the further-distant Napa/Vallejo branch might have 2-10-2 types, etc. (These are Oakland-based examples.) For a "rediculous" example of local passenger service, at one time the Western Pacific used a single RDC unit to provide local passenger service halfway across the North American continent, connecting Oakland, CA to Utah. Mark
I agree that's why I said limited main line use.
The 0-6-0 was a better choice for a urban local but,may lack the "oomph" needed to get the job done on heavier locals.
This one of the reasons railroads welcome the RS1 and RS2* during the early dieselization years.These was the first true "go anywhere/do anything" diesel locomotive.
*The RS2 predates the GP7 by 3 years.
The RDG used 0-8-0's as road switchers in areas around terminals and on branchlines. The E-5 0-8-0 was essentially an I-9 consolidation without a leading truck and was commonly used on locals and road switchers. Burt Pennypacker had an article on the RDG's 0-8-0's and their uses in a past RCT&HS "Bee Line". If I was modeling an era just a decade newer than I am, the typical road switcher for the branches just north of Wilmington would be an 0-8-0 like this one:
http://gelwood.railfan.net/rdg/rdg-s1419a.jpg
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
interesting photo. thanks for posting it...may be just my perception but don't the drivers look larger than those you would normally find under a yard engine?
grizlump
What a timely post. I was just debating assigning 0-6-0 power to my lighter locals, but was unsure of prototype practice. I've seen pix of PRR B class in more densly populated areas apparently working industrial spurs, but didn't know the proximity to the nearest yard.
I wonder if there were speed restrictions for locos without lead trucks, or for that matter diesels without "road" trucks. I suppose general restrictions on that portion of the line would also be a factor, as they could nullify the need to worry about it.
I've also seen pics of at least two 0-6-0's stationed at the PRR rounhouse in Xenia Ohio at around the turn of last century, but assumed they were for work in the yard, there.
Hey Brakie, what RR did your grandfather work for?
I'm interested in the Xenia/Springfield/Dayton area of Ohio.
I'd love to see a loco assignment specific to that shop. I know they were actually assigned to Columbus, but there had to be some kind of documentation for what was kept at the smaller locations.
1948PRR What a timely post. I was just debating assigning 0-6-0 power to my lighter locals, but was unsure of prototype practice.
0-6-0 and 0-8-0's were used on locals around terminals and on branches.
I wonder if there were speed restrictions for locos without lead trucks, or for that matter diesels without "road" trucks.
Yes to both. You wouldn't want an 0-6-0 floundering around at 25 mph on a high speed main or running for 100 miles, but on a 25 mph branch or near a terminal they were used. You also don't have the coal and water supply to go long distances so need to keep close to fuel and water.
Using an 0-6-0 or 0-8-0 on a branchline freight would be fairly rare on the prototype, but pretty common on model railroads, so if you want to use an 0-8-0 that way I'd go ahead and do it.
BTW, one reason that road diesels (RS-3, GP-7) were so popular in the early fifties was that one engine was usually powerful enough to run on a branchline plus you didn't have to turn the engine at the end of the branch. Yes you can run a steam engine backwards but most branchlines unless they were very short had a small turntable at the end to turn the engine for the return trip. So it wouldn't be unusual to see a new diesel in 1951 operating on a branchline, while the mainline was still primarily running big steam.
For the better part of the first half of the twentieth century, there was a shortline in my neighborhood running between Antioch and Cowell (now part of Concord). Its primary purpose was to serve the largest cement plant in the world in Cowell (railroad and cement plant had a common owner). Its motive power consisted of two 0-6-0 types, and the regularly scheduled trains were mixed passenger (equipped with a combination baggage/coach car) and freight. However, the line wasn't more than 12 miles long. If the railroad had lasted some years longer, I can imagine it being powered with two 44-tonners.
I took this photo of the former cement plant's stack about a year ago, a few months before it was torn down. (It was in the middle of a housing development, and it was cheaper for the homeowners' association to tear it down than to repair.) Too bad, since the stack was a great landmark. It was also a monument to one of the few things Mr. Cowell did that wasn't his idea. For years he resisted local farmers' complaint of particulate pollution falling on their fields. Amazingly, he caved. But when plant workers striked after WWII, Cowell permanently closed the plant.
The cement plant in better days.
Paul Dietz I think is the author of Firing steam on the Pensey. It sbis sotries of working as a Fireman for the Pennsy. One involves an h6 I beleive that attained a high rate of speed while pushing a train.Some of the Pennsy fans here I know would love this book.
As for 0-6-0 and 0-8-0 being on locals. Ihad a Vintage Rails with a story in it on how C&NW had used them on locals, I think it was Robert Janz writting it,and how tehy had to move them from the terminal they were assigned back to Chicago for inspection and the like.
As for a MR article, John Page had one about the flacuss (sp?)dinky.An 0-4-0 tank that had derailed on the spur to a glass company outside his house.
So we know they were used in limited service and not too far from a terminal.But I think an 0-6-0 would be used more than an 0-8-0 for all the reasons posted,but never say never when talking about railroad ops.
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train
wjstix Using an 0-6-0 or 0-8-0 on a branchline freight would be fairly rare on the prototype, but pretty common on model railroads, so if you want to use an 0-8-0 that way I'd go ahead and do it. BTW, one reason that road diesels (RS-3, GP-7) were so popular in the early fifties was that one engine was usually powerful enough to run on a branchline plus you didn't have to turn the engine at the end of the branch. Yes you can run a steam engine backwards but most branchlines unless they were very short had a small turntable at the end to turn the engine for the return trip. So it wouldn't be unusual to see a new diesel in 1951 operating on a branchline, while the mainline was still primarily running big steam.
Actually the GP7 was indeed design as a brachline locomotive.
According to Dick Dilworth:
"In planning the GP7,"I had two dreams. The first was to make a locomotive so ugly in appearance that no railroad would want it on the main line or anywhere near headquarters, but would keep it out as far as possible in the back country, where it could do really useful work. My second dream was to make it so simple in construction and so devoid of Christmas-tree ornaments and other whimsy that the price would be materially below our standard main-line freight locomotives."
Quoted from GM's Geeps: The General Purpose Diesels (Classic Trains/Kalmbach).
On the SP, 4-axled road switchers were considered mainline machines. On the other hand, 6-axled road switchers (EMDs and Baldwins) were often seen on branchlines because of reduced axle loading. (Unfortunately for us modelers, those 6-axled jobs require a larger radius.)
Yeah Mark,Mr.Dilworth's dream went up in smoke when railroads used GP7s on the main lines,branchlines and as heavy yard switchers...
BRAKIEAbsolutely..Those C1s wasn't very good and the H9/H10 could out perform them and both was "rough riders" as my Grandfather called 'em.
My boyhood friends grand father was a retired RR Dick for the PRR in Cleveland. I remember one story that he told us. These 2 young ladies complained to a yardmaster that they spotted a naked man working a locomotive in the yard. He went to investigate and found a C1 switching cuts of hoppers for Whiskey Island and the fireman had no pants on. The C1 cab being so far back would swing sideways violently and the fireman's head banged against the side of the cab and gave him a bump. So he took his canvas trousers and tied them around his neck and wrapped the legs up over his head to cushion his new bump. Since he was local he did not pack a grip and decided to finish the day in his boxers and boots. The ladies must have seen him when he was pulling cover plates on the tender or at the water plug. The swinging of the cab side to side was so bad it would hurt your neck after a while. All the engine men would complain of the sideways swing more than the pounding up and down. The farther the cab was from the rear driver the rougher the ride.
Finally found it. Here is a photo of Bay Point & Cowell RR's 0-6-0 #1 at the head of an excursion train at the Cowell cement plant.
CannoliI'm looking at picking up a Walthers Heritage 0-8-0 in N scale for use on my protolanced branch line layout. Were these classes of locos ever uses as road power for local freights?
I wonder what a NYC 0-8-8-0 would be like? Any extra stability due to the second set of drivers?
grizlump9 interesting photo. thanks for posting it...may be just my perception but don't the drivers look larger than those you would normally find under a yard engine? grizlump
I wonder if the 1419 was rebuilt from a 2-8-0? That would explain the larger drivers. If the RDG could use 2-8-0s to make 4-8-4s they shouldn't have had any trouble converting a 2-8-0 into an 0-8-0. IIRC the B&O rebuilt quite a few 2-8-0s into 0-8-0s.
BRAKIE wjstix Using an 0-6-0 or 0-8-0 on a branchline freight would be fairly rare on the prototype, but pretty common on model railroads, so if you want to use an 0-8-0 that way I'd go ahead and do it. BTW, one reason that road diesels (RS-3, GP-7) were so popular in the early fifties was that one engine was usually powerful enough to run on a branchline plus you didn't have to turn the engine at the end of the branch. Yes you can run a steam engine backwards but most branchlines unless they were very short had a small turntable at the end to turn the engine for the return trip. So it wouldn't be unusual to see a new diesel in 1951 operating on a branchline, while the mainline was still primarily running big steam. Actually the GP7 was indeed design as a brachline locomotive. According to Dick Dilworth: "In planning the GP7,"I had two dreams. The first was to make a locomotive so ugly in appearance that no railroad would want it on the main line or anywhere near headquarters, but would keep it out as far as possible in the back country, where it could do really useful work. My second dream was to make it so simple in construction and so devoid of Christmas-tree ornaments and other whimsy that the price would be materially below our standard main-line freight locomotives." Quoted from GM's Geeps: The General Purpose Diesels (Classic Trains/Kalmbach).
GM's "BL" series was intended to be branchline engines (BL= Branch Line I guess?) by putting an F-units guts in a road-switcher body, but it didn't work out too well. The GP came along a couple of years later and did it right.
DSO17 grizlump9 interesting photo. thanks for posting it...may be just my perception but don't the drivers look larger than those you would normally find under a yard engine? grizlump I wonder if the 1419 was rebuilt from a 2-8-0? That would explain the larger drivers. If the RDG could use 2-8-0s to make 4-8-4s they shouldn't have had any trouble converting a 2-8-0 into an 0-8-0. IIRC the B&O rebuilt quite a few 2-8-0s into 0-8-0s.
From what I've read, in general railroads in the late nineteenth century didn't bother to buy "switcher" engines per se, but would just take old 2-6-0 or 2-8-0 engines and remove the front truck to make it an 0-6-0 or 0-8-0. Freight cars were much lighter then and it wasn't hard for the engines to do the work.
Of course by World War 1 switcher production must have been up, since the USRA saw the need to design both a light and heavy USRA switcher (0-6-0 and 0-8-0 respectively)...or the design was so good it inspired railroads to order the engines (or copies later) to use in moving the increasingly heavier cars in use then??
Stix wrote;
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Correct it was EMD's failed attempt at entering the road switcher market..
The BL2 has a sad story..It was a redheaded orphan nobody liked.You see EMD's designing engineers didn't like it,the sales department didn't like it and the railroads didn't like it because the engineer couldn't see the switchmen riding the steps and it had poor visibility on reverse moves which made Alcos RS1 and RS2 superior locomotives for switching..
Did you know the GP7 number boards(called number boxes by EMD's designers) was added as a afterthought after somebody ask Mr.Dilworth about number boxes?
For some interesting history I highly recommend 2 things GM's Geeps: The General Purpose Diesels(Classic Trains/Kalmach paper back) and GMs Geeps in Action video(Classic Trains/Kalmbach).
The NYC had 350+ 0-6-0s and 787 0-8-0s. Although the 0-8-0s could pull a reasonable number of cars at a time, none of them (from what I've read) were ever used as road switchers.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.