I suspect that I'm going to put a cat among pigeons here...
Not just being awkward - this was in the original sketched plan - there is at least one road grade crossing of both RR close to the diamond.
As far as I know so far it won't make any difference if there is more than one crossing.
For now I'm assuming that one (or both) grade crossings are between the protecting signals and the RR/RR.diamond. These crossing(s) are protected by crossbuck with flashing lights (and audible warning) but no barriers.
Feel free to quote just the above and tell me how it would be done on the real RR please...
AND/OR, if I've got this anywhere near correct answer the following (possibly miles off target) questions...
AFAIK USA Grade Crossing protection is not linked in with Absolute Signals - ??? - I could be completely wrong on this...???
AFAIK Grade Crossing crossbucks and lights C 1985 could be tripped/set working by either an approach track circuit or an approach treadle... or manually.. Is that correct?
That's the easy bit.
In my scenario I have the grade crossings (not far) beyond Absolute Signals that will be holding some trains while other trains clear around them.
It all seems much more sensible/easy to me to put the crossbucks under the control of the tower operator.
To me this particularly applies because the streets that will need the crossbucks will also cross the switching line on the south side of the main tracks...
If the street crosses completely over all lines the crossbucks would seem to go outside all lines...
BUT...
If the switching track is running in pavement where would the crossbucks be please?
In a city/industrial area - where a street is busy enough to need crossbucks with lights would it get crossbucks on both sides of the street or just one?
I think that I have seen pics that show that one street can have crossbucks with lights while another street (or entry to a factory) close by may only have crossbucks. Is that correct please?
Thanks for your time.
Dave-the-Train AFAIK USA Grade Crossing protection is not linked in with Absolute Signals - ??? - I could be completely wrong on this...??? AFAIK Grade Crossing crossbucks and lights C 1985 could be tripped/set working by either an approach track circuit or an approach treadle... or manually.. Is that correct?
Grade crossing signals are not connected to the block or interlcoking signals in any fashoin. They are separate circuits and signals.
Crossbucks are twwo pieces of metal wood bolted to a post They are just a sign. They aren't tripped by anything, 8-)
Active warning devices (lights gates) are tripped by a track circuit that is timed based on the speed of the track. No treadles. No manual activation.
You do have a variety of options depending on the type of road that is crossing. Minimum is crossbucks only. Then you can add flasshing lights, then gates, then cantelever lights, and finally double gates (both directions of lanes on both sides of the crossing.)
Dave-the-TrainIf the crossbucks get set off by an approaching train... what happens with a train at a stand between the approach trip mechanism and the grade crossing when it is going to move? (this Q might be irrelevent)
Crossbucks aren't set off by anything. The active warning devices (bell, lights and gates) generally fall into two options which depend on when the circuits were installed or last updated. Either the bells, lights, and gate stay on and down until the train moves or in newer systems with motion sensors, after a certain time they they go off and then don't come on until the circuit senses another train moving in the circuits.
Dave-the-TrainIt all seems much more sensible/easy to me to put the crossbucks under the control of the tower operator.
Heck no. An automatic system never sleeps, it never goes to the bathroom, it never goes out for lunch, it always goes off at the same time with the same amount of warning, it never misses a train (unless the track sees less than a train a day). It would EXTREMELY rare to find a manual crossing gate system in the US that is manually activated.
Dave-the-TrainIf the street crosses completely over all lines the crossbucks would seem to go outside all lines...
True.
Dave-the-TrainIf the switching track is running in pavement where would the crossbucks be please?
The tracks in the pavement do not have crossbucks. If the train is running up the middle of the street it isn't a grade CROSSING.
Dave-the-TrainIn a city/industrial area - where a street is busy enough to need crossbucks with lights would it get crossbucks on both sides of the street or just one?
Every crossing, no matter how big gets crossbucks on both sides. Active warning devices are on both sides also.
Dave-the-TrainI think that I have seen pics that show that one street can have crossbucks with lights while another street (or entry to a factory) close by may only have crossbucks. Is that correct please?
Correct. If its a "private" crossing it isn't even required to have crossbucks. The cities and states decide how many warning devices to put at crossings (the minimum is crossbucks) NOT the railroad. Once the city or state decides to install active warning devices, the railroad maintains them.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Thanks Dave
Please help me a bit further...
dehusman Dave-the-Train AFAIK USA Grade Crossing protection is not linked in with Absolute Signals - ??? - I could be completely wrong on this...??? AFAIK Grade Crossing crossbucks and lights C 1985 could be tripped/set working by either an approach track circuit or an approach treadle... or manually.. Is that correct? Grade crossing signals are not connected to the block or interlcoking signals in any fashoin. They are separate circuits and signals. Crossbucks are two pieces of metal wood bolted to a post They are just a sign. They aren't tripped by anything, 8-) Sorry: I was using "crossbucks" sort of generically to mean crossbucks with warning lights - but no barriers. Active warning devices (lights gates) are tripped by a track circuit that is timed based on the speed of the track. No treadles. No manual activation. Would that be the case in 1985 please? The big question that I have is the one about trains getting stopped short of the grade crossings by the protecting signals for the diamond. Tripping the warning lights with an approach track circuit would give a false signal in that case. Wouldn't this cause there to be some sort of interlock between the systems? The next big issue would be the one of what happens when a train that has been stopped then gets the road... starting to move from right up close to the crossing? You do have a variety of options depending on the type of road that is crossing. Minimum is crossbucks only. Then you can add flashing lights, then gates, then cantilever lights, and finally double gates (both directions of lanes on both sides of the crossing.) Dave-the-TrainIf the crossbucks get set off by an approaching train... what happens with a train at a stand between the approach trip mechanism and the grade crossing when it is going to move? (this Q might be irrelevent) Crossbucks aren't set off by anything. The active warning devices (bell, lights and gates) generally fall into two options which depend on when the circuits were installed or last updated. Either the bells, lights, and gate stay on and down until the train moves or in newer systems with motion sensors, after a certain time they they go off and then don't come on until the circuit senses another train moving in the circuits. This is pretty much the same issue as above... but to give an example... I'm thinking that a train westbound on the 2nd Main could get held in the 2nd Main while one of several things happens:- A train on 1st Main can pass either way A train on the other (RRB) track through the diamond can pass in either direction Both of the above could happen. So, first off they wouldn't want the train on 2nd Main to set off the warning when it arrived. Later they would want that train to set off the warning from a standing start. Of course the sensible thing to do is just close off the streets! Assumimg that the County or whoever won't let them there has to be a solution... I'm pretty sure that awkward situations like this must occur... if not exactly like this... How about where the exit from a yard onto a Main is just before a grade crossing? Or where 4 track goes down to 2 track? Dave-the-TrainIt all seems much more sensible/easy to me to put the crossbucks under the control of the tower operator. Heck no. An automatic system never sleeps, it never goes to the bathroom, it never goes out for lunch, it always goes off at the same time with the same amount of warning, it never misses a train (unless the track sees less than a train a day). It would EXTREMELY rare to find a manual crossing gate system in the US that is manually activated. But there was a time when grade crossings had keepers and "mini towers"/shanties with them. Were these all gone by 1985? Dave-the-TrainIf the street crosses completely over all lines the crossbucks would seem to go outside all lines... True. Wow! I got one right! Dave-the-TrainIf the switching track is running in pavement where would the crossbucks be please? The tracks in the pavement do not have crossbucks. If the train is running up the middle of the street it isn't a grade CROSSING. Sorry! Expressed myself badly on that one. What I meant was not for crossbucks for the tracks running along in pavement but... where there is that situation next to tracks not in pavement and the street turns across the ballasted track - or there is a crossroads or T junction that has street crossing the ballasted track at grade... then where would the crossbucks be please? This gives me a distinct different question... Where track is in pavement and there is a crossroads would there be crossbucks or crossbucks+ on the cross route? If so I take it that it would be the County or similar who would decide... Dave-the-TrainIn a city/industrial area - where a street is busy enough to need crossbucks with lights would it get crossbucks on both sides of the street or just one? Every crossing, no matter how big gets crossbucks on both sides. Active warning devices are on both sides also. Dave-the-TrainI think that I have seen pics that show that one street can have crossbucks with lights while another street (or entry to a factory) close by may only have crossbucks. Is that correct please? Correct. If its a "private" crossing it isn't even required to have crossbucks. The cities and states decide how many warning devices to put at crossings (the minimum is crossbucks) NOT the railroad. Once the city or state decides to install active warning devices, the railroad maintains them. If it is a private (e.g. factory) road can the RR (or factory) choose to put in crossbucks... even if on one side of the tracks they end up right on the edge of the county/state street?
Crossbucks are two pieces of metal wood bolted to a post They are just a sign. They aren't tripped by anything, 8-) Sorry: I was using "crossbucks" sort of generically to mean crossbucks with warning lights - but no barriers.
Active warning devices (lights gates) are tripped by a track circuit that is timed based on the speed of the track. No treadles. No manual activation. Would that be the case in 1985 please?
The big question that I have is the one about trains getting stopped short of the grade crossings by the protecting signals for the diamond. Tripping the warning lights with an approach track circuit would give a false signal in that case. Wouldn't this cause there to be some sort of interlock between the systems?
The next big issue would be the one of what happens when a train that has been stopped then gets the road... starting to move from right up close to the crossing?
You do have a variety of options depending on the type of road that is crossing. Minimum is crossbucks only. Then you can add flashing lights, then gates, then cantilever lights, and finally double gates (both directions of lanes on both sides of the crossing.)
This is pretty much the same issue as above... but to give an example... I'm thinking that a train westbound on the 2nd Main could get held in the 2nd Main while one of several things happens:-
So, first off they wouldn't want the train on 2nd Main to set off the warning when it arrived. Later they would want that train to set off the warning from a standing start.
Of course the sensible thing to do is just close off the streets! Assumimg that the County or whoever won't let them there has to be a solution... I'm pretty sure that awkward situations like this must occur... if not exactly like this... How about where the exit from a yard onto a Main is just before a grade crossing? Or where 4 track goes down to 2 track?
But there was a time when grade crossings had keepers and "mini towers"/shanties with them. Were these all gone by 1985?
Wow! I got one right!
Sorry! Expressed myself badly on that one.
What I meant was not for crossbucks for the tracks running along in pavement but... where there is that situation next to tracks not in pavement and the street turns across the ballasted track - or there is a crossroads or T junction that has street crossing the ballasted track at grade... then where would the crossbucks be please?
This gives me a distinct different question...
Where track is in pavement and there is a crossroads would there be crossbucks or crossbucks+ on the cross route? If so I take it that it would be the County or similar who would decide...
If it is a private (e.g. factory) road can the RR (or factory) choose to put in crossbucks... even if on one side of the tracks they end up right on the edge of the county/state street?
Thanks a lot for the answers!
If there is a crossing close to the diamond, usually the crew will stop short.
Stopped short of a private crossing. The home signal for the diamond is up a ways.
Starting up from a dead stop takes a bit of time, plenty for the lights to get going. If needed, the train would stop a little ways back from the crossing to get the lights going while the train accelerates, about 20 seconds before getting into the crossing.
Very few manually operated grade crossings left in 1985. Might be some in congested areas with many switching moves, but most would be automated well before 1985.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
If approach TCs or treadles set them off could they be set up so that the speed of the approaching train would trigger a sequence of detection and set the crossbucks off more rapidly for fast trains and less rapidly for slow trains?
Crossing protection is handled by a separate track circuit, called an island circuit. Stand alone in dark territory or overlaid on the signal circuits. The island circuit is timed for the maximum authorized track speed. Modern motion sensing circuits can vary the activation time based on speed.
It doesn'tmatter so much but where crossbucks were set off by TC or treadle how would the tail of the train going clear be setected - to relaease/turn off the crossbucks?
When the island circuit is cleared, the crossing protection is deactivated.
To me the simple solution would be to put the crossbucks under the tower operators control... It would then be up to him to set the crossbucks off before clearing whichever route he wanted to move a train on next. To me it would be natural for the signals to be interlocked so that they could not show a proceed aspect until the crossbucks had been working for a minimum time. --- I suspect that this may be different in the USA???
To me the simple solution would be to put the crossbucks under the tower operators control... It would then be up to him to set the crossbucks off before clearing whichever route he wanted to move a train on next.
To me it would be natural for the signals to be interlocked so that they could not show a proceed aspect until the crossbucks had been working for a minimum time. --- I suspect that this may be different in the USA???
As Dave H said, nope. The island circuit never takes a break, works in dark territory, etc. Also the tower operator may bend the rail and clear the signals far in advance of an approaching train. So having the crossing protection active that long, defeats the purpose of it.
If the crossbucks get set off by an approaching train... what happens with a train at a stand between the approach trip mechanism and the grade crossing when it is going to move? (this Q might be irrelevent)
With motion sensing circuits, after the train is stopped for a set amount of time, the protection deactivates. When the trains starts to move again, the protection reactivates. Some crossing also have a manual override. Most the time, however, if you are going to stop on the circuit, the rule says to stop before occupying it.
The switching line is dark to the tower except for movements between the switching track and 2nd Main and vice versa. Would they be outside all tracks to protect the switching line as well as the Main tracks. Or would they be between the switching line and the Main Tracks?
The switching line will have it's own island circuit connected to the crossing protection. The crossbucks will be located outside of all tracks.
Crossing protection is also the same on both sides of the track.
Many moons ago, there were manned crossings. A few survived until quite recently, in areas with both heavy vehicle traffic and heavy rail traffic, that approaches, but does not foul the crossings.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
Brilliant help everyone! Thanks
Dave-the-Train dehusman Active warning devices (lights gates) are tripped by a track circuit that is timed based on the speed of the track. No treadles. No manual activation. Would that be the case in 1985 please?
dehusman Active warning devices (lights gates) are tripped by a track circuit that is timed based on the speed of the track. No treadles. No manual activation.
Would that be the case in 1985 please?
Yes.
Dave-the-TrainThe big question that I have is the one about trains getting stopped short of the grade crossings by the protecting signals for the diamond. Tripping the warning lights with an approach track circuit would give a false signal in that case. Wouldn't this cause there to be some sort of interlock between the systems?
No. Stop thinking that there are any cases where the crossing protection and the railways block or interlocking signals have any influence on each other. They don't.
Dave-the-TrainThe next big issue would be the one of what happens when a train that has been stopped then gets the road... starting to move from right up close to the crossing?
If the train has stopped, and the circuit timed out so the crossing signals turned off, then the train would start to pull forward very slowly until it hit the next part of the circuit so the system detects it's moving and activates the lights/bells/gates again. The train will also ring its own bell and blow the horn as required to let people know it's moving.
Dave-the-Train This is pretty much the same issue as above... but to give an example... I'm thinking that a train westbound on the 2nd Main could get held in the 2nd Main while one of several things happens:- A train on 1st Main can pass either way A train on the other (RRB) track through the diamond can pass in either direction Both of the above could happen. So, first off they wouldn't want the train on 2nd Main to set off the warning when it arrived. Later they would want that train to set off the warning from a standing start. Of course the sensible thing to do is just close off the streets! Assumimg that the County or whoever won't let them there has to be a solution... I'm pretty sure that awkward situations like this must occur... if not exactly like this... How about where the exit from a yard onto a Main is just before a grade crossing? Or where 4 track goes down to 2 track?
Movements on any of the tracks will set off the crossing signals in exactly the same way. Beyond that I don't understand your question. If the train arrives on track 2, and enters the crossing circuit, it will set off the lights/bells/gates. If it stops, the circuit times out, figures out the train is not moving and turns off. When it starts moving again, the gates will go down. Now of course, if there's movements on any other track that is protected by the same crossing signals, any of those will turn on the lights/bells/etc.
The other thing that will happen is the train will hold short of the crossing. In the case of a fully protected crossing with lights/etc. that is just before an interlocking, the train can hold just short of the start of the signal circuit so they don't set it off (there will be a small "CIRCUIT END" sign to mark the spot where the circuit starts). They don't need to pull right up to the signal in order to see it. The employee's timetable may even specifically direct trains to do this in the footnotes for that subdivision.
Example from a CP timetable I have where there is a situation pretty much exactly as described here:
Canadian Pacific RailwayMovements over Elm Street, mileage 79.4, must not exceed 10 M.P.H. between "Circuit End" signs located east and west of crossing until crossing is fully occupied. To avoid blocking this crossing, westward trains approaching the crossing must be prepared to stop east of block end sign located at mileage 79.3 until signals 795-1, 795-2 or 03 indicates proceed.
Dave-the-Train But there was a time when grade crossings had keepers and "mini towers"/shanties with them. Were these all gone by 1985?
I would be extremely surprised to find manual crossing protection at that point.
Dave-the-TrainWhat I meant was not for crossbucks for the tracks running along in pavement but... where there is that situation next to tracks not in pavement and the street turns across the ballasted track - or there is a crossroads or T junction that has street crossing the ballasted track at grade... then where would the crossbucks be please?
If I understand the question correctly, you're describing a road and railway that are parallel to each other and asking what happens when another road crosses the tracks before an intersection with the main road? The road crossing the tracks will have crossbucks/lights/gates/etc. just like any other road, although the post in between the railway and the main road may have another pair of lights mounted such that they can be seen from the main road for cars turning onto the side street.
Dave-the-TrainThis gives me a distinct different question... Where track is in pavement and there is a crossroads would there be crossbucks or crossbucks+ on the cross route? If so I take it that it would be the County or similar who would decide...
That I don't have much experience with. Not really any proper street running around my area.
Dave-the-Train If it is a private (e.g. factory) road can the RR (or factory) choose to put in crossbucks... even if on one side of the tracks they end up right on the edge of the county/state street?
Yes. The owner of the crossing could choose regular crossbucks (no lights/bells/gates) or simplified railway crossing/no trespassing signs. It's not a public street so the rules are a little more relaxed. Any signs would be on both sides of the tracks in any case.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
nbrodar With motion sensing circuits, after the train is stopped for a set amount of time, the protection deactivates. When the trains starts to move again, the protection reactivates. Some crossing also have a manual override. Most the time, however, if you are going to stop on the circuit, the rule says to stop before occupying it.
I don't believe how fast I seem to be getting the hang of this!
I'll have to do a sketch for the "track in pavement" concept. Although I think that that may have been covered.
Anyway... I'd forgotten about islands circuits. The holding back makes sense... I'd begun to wonder if that was the solution after all the questions in red. Naturally I don't want it to be as I want trains to come right up to the protecting signals to wait their turn. So I may have to just shift the grade crossings.
I've quoted Nick because it seems to suggest that there can be one clear answer for the main tracks - hold back off the circuit - what do the signs look like please? - and a different one for the switching track.
Would I be right in thinking that the switching track might have a manual over-ride operated by the brakesman or other crew member whenever a switching move might set the lights off incorrectly? Would/could there also be a manual over-ride to cancel the first action and set the lights working?
As it is a switching track I imagine that (A) they wouldn't want to spend a lot of money on complex track circuits and (B) the movements would be very slow and with plenty of crew - probably riding on the loco steps or car stirrups - to work over-ride switches.
What would over-ride switches look like please? Would they be on the side of lineside equipment boxes or in small phoneboxes on top of posts like they have by some remote electrically released switches?
Hmm... I'm thinking about the manual over-ride... would it reset automatically after a set time or sequence of events?
One thing that I must ask... It isn't being suggested that grade crossing keepers don't turn up/need to eat or fall asleep is it? I've never known any of those things happen...
Thanks again.
Dave-the-Train I've quoted Nick because it seems to suggest that there can be one clear answer for the main tracks - hold back off the circuit - what do the signs look like please? - and a different one for the switching track.
While some railroads may have markers for the circuits, I can't recall ever seeing any markers for the crossing circuits. Just the insulated joints in the rails.
Would I be right in thinking that the switching track might have a manual over-ride operated by the brakesman or other crew member whenever a switching move might set the lights off incorrectly?
If the switching lead is "inside" the automatic protection then it has to be included in the circuit.
Dave H.
As I recall, when there was street running in Erie, PA, streets were protected. The tracks are gone now and with them a lot of the signs. But I remember busier streets having gates and everything. And a few of them, maybe three or four, actually had manned crossings (city law) until the tracks went out of service.
Prototype for everything, etc.
Everybody's different. Some use a sign that says Hold Back. If you stop for a signal, there may be a "wait light" that illuminates when the signal clears. Some may just give you a mile post to stop at. Some as Dave H stated, may have nothing at all.
Would I be right in thinking that the switching track might have a manual over-ride operated by the brakesman or other crew member whenever a switching move might set the lights off incorrectly? I have never come across a crossing signal with a manual overide. The railroads I have worked for would have a cow over including a manual override.
I have never come across a crossing signal with a manual overide. The railroads I have worked for would have a cow over including a manual override.
I've seen and used them in a couple places. Mainly where opening a customer switch triggers the crossing protection. Basically, it's just a box on the equipment shed.
That's what I like! Complete, 100%, total standardisation! Just like we do it!
Naturally the next question is... what does a "wait" light look like please?
The other thing I note is that at least one city enforced the crossings being kept manned. I'm pretty sure that I've heard of that elsewhere... the question is whether it still happens or when did it finally die out... I guess even the last could vary from state to state.
Thanks again everybody.
Dave-the-TrainThe other thing I note is that at least one city enforced the crossings being kept manned. I'm pretty sure that I've heard of that elsewhere... the question is whether it still happens or when did it finally die out... I guess even the last could vary from state to state.
City to city and it was extremely, extremely rare, especially in 1985.
Yeah, there were literally dozens of cross-streets on 19th in Erie and only a handful were protected by humans. A little nosing around seems to suggest that it was only during the school year too, when buses full of kids would ply the same route as the freight trains.
dehusmanDave-the-TrainThe other thing I note is that at least one city enforced the crossings being kept manned. I'm pretty sure that I've heard of that elsewhere... the question is whether it still happens or when did it finally die out... I guess even the last could vary from state to state. City to city and it was extremely, extremely rare, especially in 1985.
I can't quite find which issue, but seems to me a recent issue of Trains or RMC had a picture a guy took of an old CNW crossing tower (for manually activating crossing gates) in Upper Michigan in the mid-eighties. He was very happy to find it still in place, since most had stop being used decades earlier, all but a few had long since been torn down.
BTW crossing shanties/towers were first manned by guys who would come out and manually wave a flag or hold up a stop sign to stop traffic. Later pneumatic crossing gates were developed that they could pump up and down from their tower without having to go down. Electric flashing lights came later, about the time crossing gates became electric. Once electricity was standard (certainly by the fifties) it was easy to rig up an automatic flashing light or crossing gate activating system that didn't require an employee, so that was done in most all situations.
p.s. Manned crossing shanties in the old days were generally manned by railroaders who had been injured on the job and could no longer work as engineers or brakemen etc. This was long before social security disability or workman's comp - or the AFLAC duck for that matter !! Once in a while in a train DVD or video you'll see film taken years back of a crossing shanty guy coming from or going to the shanty...generally walking with a limp.
AFLAC Duck
***************
I think that I have a couple of different ways to go with this:-
1. I can start thinking about how many crossbucks (minimum 2 - maximum ?) each side of the line - to provide visual warning to traffic aproaching on streets from different directions... or there is a question of how many pairs of lights go on one crossbuck (set at different angles)... so far I've seen 2 pairs...
2. Look at a grade seperation... burrow the street down under the tracks. Not sure about this one. While it can add some interest it raises questions about clearance and angle(s) of approach ramps ??? I know that an underpass can have a restricted height clearance... I just don't know at what point that would become worthwhile... or maybe the City/County would mandate it???
Thanks again everyone.
PS 3. Do both??? It sounds crazy but do they ever put in an underpass for cars but leave in a grade crossing for trucks? I know of a couple of places where they've put in an overpass but left a grade crossing (normally locked out of use). One is for extremely heavy machinery on special (enormous) trucks to get across the line to a storage facility.
Dave-the-Train AFLAC Duck
American Family Life Assurance Company of Colombus ("AFLAC") is a company that specializes in insurance plans that pay you if you're injured and unable to work. They advertise a lot during sports programs, including often doing a trivia question during the broadcast.
Their commercials feature "the AFLAC duck" whose voice is done by comedian Gilbert Godfreid I believe. Their best known commercial is probably the one with Yogi Berra in a barber shop. "If you get hurt and miss work, it won't hurt to miss work"..."They give you cash, which is just as good as money" etc.
http://yankees.fandome.com/video/83859/Yogi-Berra-in-AFLAC-Ad/
Dave-the-Train 1. I can start thinking about how many crossbucks (minimum 2 - maximum ?) each side of the line - to provide visual warning to traffic aproaching on streets from different directions... or there is a question of how many pairs of lights go on one crossbuck (set at different angles)... so far I've seen 2 pairs...
Not knowing what the intersection looks like its pretty hard to tell.
Normally there is just one pair of crossbucks outside the tracks (with a sign if there are more than one track), just one pair of crossbucks on the mast and one pair of flashing lights on the post.
About the only time you get more than that is if there is an intersection ON the crossing.
Railroads don't do roads. Cities, counties and states do roads. There is nothing that says you have to put the entire approach ramp on the layout, it can extend to the fascia
Unless you absolutely have to or or going to be driving little model trucks around your layout i wouldn't devote the real estate to both. KISS.
There's always an exception! Just stumbled on this caption... http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=290369&nseq=1
(I'm sure that it's a conspiracy I nootice that this crossing also has barriers... but I'm back-dating to 1985. Even if I'm working a "my world" scenario I like to have some degree of logic in it.
I'll try to add another link to a multiple headed crossbuck if I can find my way back to what I saw last night.
Not the one I was looking for but... http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=171892&nseq=26
it shows a train staying off the crossing... with no signal between it and the crossing... which is the thing that I wouldn't have had a clue about.
Another one I wasn't looking for - but the same location.. http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=247610&nseq=189. http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=191486&nseq=5 http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=191600&nseq=356
I can see that some of the heads are actually rail signals in this view... which, to me, is weird - because our authorities would go ape if there was a situation where an Engineer could see both rail signals and any other red signal... even a flashing one. The crossbuck and lights equivalent would be pushed back and/or shrouded so that there would be no way an Engineer could see the road signals.
Hmm Another different, difference.
I love this! http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=244875&nseq=195 and I have figured it out. I have a different planned part of the layout that this will really suite.
Dave-the-Train There's always an exception! Just stumbled on this caption... http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=290369&nseq=1 (I'm sure that it's a conspiracy I nootice that this crossing also has barriers... but I'm back-dating to 1985. Even if I'm working a "my world" scenario I like to have some degree of logic in it.
I don't see multiple crossbucks in the picture, but there are multiple flashing lights because its a cantilever signal arrangement. I don't recall you ever saying you wanted cantilever signals, you just keep talking about "crossbucks" so I am assuming you are talking about a single mast with flashing lights and maybe gates.
Not the one I was looking for but... http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=171892&nseq=26 it shows a train staying off the crossing... with no signal between it and the crossing
it shows a train staying off the crossing... with no signal between it and the crossing
And on the vast, vast, vast majority of crossings there won't be any signage (other than the whistle board about a 1/4 mile away).
wjstix dehusman Dave-the-TrainThe other thing I note is that at least one city enforced the crossings being kept manned. I'm pretty sure that I've heard of that elsewhere... the question is whether it still happens or when did it finally die out... I guess even the last could vary from state to state. City to city and it was extremely, extremely rare, especially in 1985. I can't quite find which issue, but seems to me a recent issue of Trains or RMC had a picture a guy took of an old CNW crossing tower (for manually activating crossing gates) in Upper Michigan in the mid-eighties. He was very happy to find it still in place, since most had stop being used decades earlier, all but a few had long since been torn down.
dehusman Dave-the-TrainThe other thing I note is that at least one city enforced the crossings being kept manned. I'm pretty sure that I've heard of that elsewhere... the question is whether it still happens or when did it finally die out... I guess even the last could vary from state to state. City to city and it was extremely, extremely rare, especially in 1985.
I found it, Jan 2010 RMC. Jim Boyd's "Encountering a Classic" in the "Perspective" section, page 46-47. He actually photographed the apparently long-abandoned but intact crossing tower in August 1972. By then, it was very rare to see one still standing.
Dave,
I have seen a couple of situations like this. In both cases, the road that crossed the crossing had a T-junction about 3 or 4 metres away from the edge of the fencing along the track (tracks are fenced here in Oz). The road crossing the crossing was the top of the 'T'. In addition to the crossbucks actually on the crossing, the road coming in at the base of the 'T' had a crossbucks with flashing lights directly opposite it, facing the oncoming traffic.
At one such intersection controlled by traffic lights, the traffic lights on both sides were also tied into the crossing circuit, so that they'd give red lights when a train was approaching.
Hope this helps,
tbdanny
The Location: Forests of the Pacific Northwest, OregonThe Year: 1948The Scale: On30The Blog: http://bvlcorr.tumblr.com
Thanks. I seem to have found something similar in the US but can't find the link at the moment. Basically there is a crossbuck post with a pair of lights facing down one road that approaches and, lower down the post, another pair of lights that face down a second road. This is pretty much what I was thinking about.
PS I've just recalled a picture of a very modern scene with cantilever warning lights out over the street as well as crossbucks and lights on the main post structure. The thing about that picture was that the two-way street ran about ten feet to the side of and parallel to the track with T junctions about every block for side roads going across the tracks. It looked amazing because all the cantilever arms stuck out at right angles to the track. I wonder if they did that in earlier times?