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Locomotives of the old west

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Locomotives of the old west
Posted by RockIslandTX on Saturday, December 12, 2009 10:21 PM

I am look ing for info on what type of locomotives were common in the old west days and civil war era

Any info will be a big help thanks!

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Posted by Railway Man on Saturday, December 12, 2009 10:55 PM

 4-4-0s.  By the thousands.

Not much else.

RWM

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Posted by RockIslandTX on Saturday, December 12, 2009 11:11 PM

Thank you very much for the info and your time!!

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Posted by 4merroad4man on Saturday, December 12, 2009 11:22 PM

By "Old West" I am presuming that you mean the eera from the end of the Civil War through the late 1880's (Wyatt Earp, Bat Masterson, etc).

RWM is correct; however, the first 4-6-0 was built in the early to mid 1840's and after Baldwin built their first ones in the early to mid 1850's, the wheel arrangement took off not long after the Civil War.  By the 1880's the 2-8-0 had also become popular as a freight engine.  These and the smaller 2-6-0's were produced en masse for most eastern carriers during the 1870's.

Southern Pacific and predecessor lines 2-6-0's were, for the most part, built between 1882 and the turn of the century.  The SP''s earliest Ten Wheelers date from the late 19th Century, and most of the 2-8-0's are from the first part of the 2oth Century.

Maybe someone else can provide info on Santa Fe and UP's engines.

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Posted by richg1998 on Sunday, December 13, 2009 12:08 AM

What is the "old west" years you are thinking about? I do know there were a lot of 4-4-0s plus 4-6-0 were being introduced. C.W. 4-4-0 and a fair amount of 0-8-0s. A 0-10-0T as a pusher. Around 1870 I believe the 2-8-0 was being introduced.

Some links below.

http://www.google.com/search?pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=steam+locomotives+1800s&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3Dsearch=Search+the+Web

Rich

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

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Posted by JamesP on Sunday, December 13, 2009 7:35 AM

All of the responses above are correct, but I might add is that 0-4-0's and 0-6-0's were in use as switchers.  Also, some of the older locomotives could have still been around in switching service, such as the Norris and Baldwin 4-2-0's (although they would have been pretty scarce).  Looking at old Central Pacific pictures, they had some unusual engines such as the T.D. Judah (a 4-2-2), the C.P. Huntington (a 4-2-4) and even a monster 4-8-0.  Looking at some early small railroads and logging railroads, there was a variety of locomotives.  I would suggest the George Abdill book "Pacific Slope Railroads" for some good pictures of locomotives of the old west.  Hey, I would suggest any of Abdill's books - they're all good!  Also, look at Gerald Best's book "Iron Horses to Promontory" - it shows typical Central Pacific and Union Pacific motive power during the construction of the Transcontinental Railway.

Link & pin couplers, hand brakes, slide valves, saturated steam and crosshead water pumps; ya gotta love it!

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Edit - I should have mentioned the Abdill book "Civil War Railroads: A Pictorial Story of the War between the States" in particular, it is a very good reference for that time frame.

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Posted by dehusman on Sunday, December 13, 2009 8:30 AM

The bad news is that the major model manufacturers think that trains were invented in the 1920's so the major model manufacturers offer very little equipment.  Most of it is toy train set quality and the same models have been in production for 30-40 years.

The good news is that the "old west" really isn't the 1850's.  Its actually more like the 1880's and early 1900's.  It wasn't until 1869 that there was a transcontinental railroad.  Most of your typical cowboy movies were actually 1890 era. 

That moves things up to the point where Roundhouse engines and cars are more appropriate.  For cars you will want to look at Alkem, BTS, Silver Crash, Trout Creek,   There is a Civil War railroads Yahoo Group and an Early Rail Yahoo group that are great resources.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by twhite on Sunday, December 13, 2009 8:37 PM

Historically, the "Old West" out here as far as railroading goes, begins about 1863 with the first shovelful of dirt here in Sacramento on the Central Pacific, and ends about 1910 or so.  So you'd have a pretty good group of locomotives to model.  

4-4-0's of course, though out here in the West, 4-6-0's were a little more popular, since they were heavier and could act as both passenger and freight power.  Central Pacific (and the later Southern Pacific) had a pretty sizeable fleet of both 2-8-0 and 4-8-0 freight power from about 1880 on, and even a 4-10-0, the "El Goberanodor", though it wasn't that successfull--not from steaming problems as much as finding a turntable long enough to turn it on.  

Great Northern was fond of the 4-8-0 wheel arrangement in the Cascades, and Northern Pacific even had a pair of 2-10-0's crossing the switchbacks of their Cascade route before the Stampede Tunnel was built.  And both railroads embraced the 2-8-0 as quickly as they could get them.   And the 2-8-0 was very quick to gain acceptance on the Rio Grande in both standard and narrow-guage versions.   

Railroads out here in the Wild West had to contend with grades far steeper and curves far more numerous than a lot of railroads Down East, so the 4-4-0 was pretty much limited to the more level stretches of the terrain and not nearly as numerous or useful out here as were the heavier locomotives of the 2-6-0, 4-6-0, 2-8-0 or 4-8-0 arrangement.   And yes, a Diamond-stack 2-10-0 wasn't really an Odd Duck out here, either.    

Though not a general rule, the heavier and more powerful locos from Baldwin and Alco were gobbled up out here as fast as they came out of the plants.  SP had the first 2-8-8-2's running before 1910.   Both 4-8-2, 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 wheel arrangements were 'out west' almost as soon as they came out of the plants in the East, and well before the 1917 USRA designations.

So if your "Old West" layout is planned anywhere from about 1863 to about 1910, you've got a lot of locos you can count on.  They weren't all baloon-stacked 'Tea-kettles'.  Not by a long shot. 

Tom Big Smile 

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Posted by wjstix on Monday, December 14, 2009 12:27 PM

There have been a couple of books made of the photos of F. Jay Haynes, including 

Northern Pacific Views: The Railroad Photography of F. Jay Haynes, 1876-1905

which have a number of pictures of the building and early days of the NP, including a fair number of locomotive pictures. They might give you some ideas / information.

The Ron Nixon Collection at Montana State also has many early RR pics, some of which show 19th century NP engines:

Note that by the 1880's diamond stacks were being replaced with straight "shotgun" stacks, often as engines were changed from being woodburners to coal. The balloon stacks were designed to surpress sparks getting out and starting fires.

Stix
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Posted by BerkshireSteam on Tuesday, December 15, 2009 12:52 AM
There is a so far wonderful piece of fiction I'm currently reading (due to ill events as of late I haven't read it all weekend, nromally I would have it done and back to the library by now) tittled "The Chase" written by a Mr. Clive Cussler. If I may, "Built by the Baldwin Locomotive Works of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 3025 rolled out of the factory on April 10th of 1904." Thats is quoted verbatem from the book, page 6. The loco in refference is a "Pacific" 4-6-2 of Southern Pacific lineage. The author even goes into what I would say more descriptiton of the engine than the average person would have attention for. 1904 is still considered by some to be wild west. Personally I favor the smaller steamers of yore. 2-6-0's, 2-6-2's, 4-6-2's, 4-6-4's, 2-8-0's. Actually I think the biggest steamer I really truely like are the 4-8-4 Northerns, but thats a little bit past late 1800's.
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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:17 AM

 That was an excellent book. It stretches things a bit in the railroad realism department but it's a good adventure. The second book is out now, called The Wrecker. Same main character, and apparantly about someone who's deliberately causeing train wrecks in the same era.

                                        --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by wjstix on Tuesday, December 15, 2009 12:13 PM

MILW-RODR
Personally I favor the smaller steamers of yore. 2-6-0's, 2-6-2's, 4-6-2's, 4-6-4's, 2-8-0's. Actually I think the biggest steamer I really truely like are the 4-8-4 Northerns, but thats a little bit past late 1800's.

There is a divide in size and power when the two-wheel trailing truck became common in the early 1900's, which allowed the firebox to be moved back from between the drivers to behind the drivers. This made engines longer and the wider firebox allowed them to be much more powerful. A USRA 2-8-2 or 4-6-2 was pretty big compared to the engines of the 1880's-90's.

Similarly, the introduction of the four-wheel trailing truck in the 1920's ushered in the "super power" era, when engines were able to combine power and speed, culminating in the 4-8-4 Northern which could haul passenger trains at the required high speeds, then on it's next run haul a long freight.

Stix
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Posted by BerkshireSteam on Tuesday, December 15, 2009 5:42 PM

wjstix

MILW-RODR
Personally I favor the smaller steamers of yore. 2-6-0's, 2-6-2's, 4-6-2's, 4-6-4's, 2-8-0's. Actually I think the biggest steamer I really truely like are the 4-8-4 Northerns, but thats a little bit past late 1800's.

There is a divide in size and power when the two-wheel trailing truck became common in the early 1900's, which allowed the firebox to be moved back from between the drivers to behind the drivers. This made engines longer and the wider firebox allowed them to be much more powerful. A USRA 2-8-2 or 4-6-2 was pretty big compared to the engines of the 1880's-90's.

Similarly, the introduction of the four-wheel trailing truck in the 1920's ushered in the "super power" era, when engines were able to combine power and speed, culminating in the 4-8-4 Northern which could haul passenger trains at the required high speeds, then on it's next run haul a long freight.

Well I did say I was a bit past the typical "old west" days. But I am starting to appreciate the 4-4-0's more after becoming interested in a free-mo club. Through talking, if I still do it, the plan was more of a very small branch line that 4-4-0's would be right at home on running mixed freights with 3 or 4 passenger cars, a baggage/mail car (the non fancy kind that just dropped off mail bags, no sorting including), a box or two of mostly LCL traffic, and of course a "traveling meat market" reefer and an insulated box car or too to pick up milk. After all it was based in central WI.
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Posted by wjstix on Wednesday, December 16, 2009 8:01 AM

Sounds good, although if the branch had enough traffic to warrant 3-4 car passenger trains, they'd probably run a separate passenger train rather than a mixed train, particularly if they had a mail contract for the route.

Stix
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Posted by g. gage on Thursday, December 17, 2009 1:41 PM

Back to the original question, I suggest looking at Southern Pacific Steam Locomotives, by Donald Duke and Railroads of Nevada and Eastern California, by David F. Myrick. The Myrick title is two comprehensive, photo rich volumes covering EVERY railroad, railway, mining, logging and gauge, outfit that operated in the area.

 

Have fun, Rob

 

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Posted by andrechapelon on Thursday, December 17, 2009 4:45 PM

If I may, "Built by the Baldwin Locomotive Works of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 3025 rolled out of the factory on April 10th of 1904." Thats is quoted verbatem from the book, page 6. The loco in refference is a "Pacific" 4-6-2 of Southern Pacific lineage.

That may be a correct quote from the book, but SP #3025 was actually an A-3 Atlantic built in 1904. In fact, it's the only surviving SP 4-4-2 and is on display at Griffith Park in Los Angeles in Travel Town.

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/losangeles/sp3025.jpg

Pacifics built specifically for SP (Coast Lines) were in the 2400 number series.

Westside has done an as-built SP P-1 Pacific, examples of which often show up on eBay. These were Harriman Standard engines  Westside also did the UP version (i.e. coal tender) of the Harriman  4-4-2 which could relatively easily be turned into an early SP A-3.

A number of engines have been available which could be used for the SP of the period around 1910-1915, including the Westsides mentioned above, the MDC Harriman 4-6-0 (and to a lesser extent the 2-8-0) as well as the MDC old-time 2-8-0 which can actually be made into a very good representation of SP 2500, the single member of class C-6 : http://schutzer.net/Old_Time_Consolidation/Old_Timer_Consolidation_page1.htm 

While not an SP prototype, the Spectrum 4-4-0 is very close to a couple of Northwestern Pacific engines and could be made a reasonable stand-in for an early 20th Century SP 4-4-0. The biggest task would probably be modifying the tender with an oil bunker. You'd probably also want to remove the generator and replace the electric headlight with a Lima arc type headlight.

Athearn/Roundhouse also made a version of its old time 2-6-0 decorated for SP and equipped with an oil bunker http://www.roundhousetrains.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=RND84734  While not strictly prototypical, it's a nice looking engine and could be easily backdated (replace headlight, remove generator).

Andre

 

It's really kind of hard to support your local hobby shop when the nearest hobby shop that's worth the name is a 150 mile roundtrip.

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