Helo again, I have a few 36ft coaches Roundhouse did as Lima advertising cars that I want to try to run as modern era cars behind a preserved Shay. For sake of argument, we're going to say that they are now metal bodies with wood siding for posterity's sake, and probably were converted to HEP power with one of 2 boxcars sporting the generator. But what else needs to happen to get them track friendly? or are the open decks on the ends too big of a problem?
-Morgan
Here is what the prototype would have to do with those cars to make them comply with modern rules:
Remove the knuckle pins.
Remove the knuckles.
Completely replace everything between the knuckles.
It would need new underframes, superstructure, brakes, trucks, couplers, etc. etc.
Since a Shay is pulling the cars why are you bothering to upgrade the cars, they aren't going to be in interchange service. No class 1 railroad would let a Shay on its tracks unless it was loaded on a flatcar.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman Here is what the prototype would have to do with those cars to make them comply with modern rules: Remove the knuckle pins. Remove the knuckles. Completely replace everything between the knuckles. It would need new underframes, superstructure, brakes, trucks, couplers, etc. etc. Since a Shay is pulling the cars why are you bothering to upgrade the cars, they aren't going to be in interchange service. No class 1 railroad would let a Shay on its tracks unless it was loaded on a flatcar.
I was afraid logic would say something like that. The Shay is a gift of a frend of the President of the Railroad who occasionally allows it to (hypothetically) roam a lesser-used branchline between Half-Moon on my still on the drawing board layout and East Bend on the Naptown & White River club layout. Neither are actually connected, but the fun is still there.
Naptown is set 1950s, but based on the above, I can't see even 100 year old cars being grandfathered in. I was hoping to "preserve" the old coaches, but if that won't work, then let's try something else. If one had all-new cars built in the 36ft style for authenticity's sake, wht would need to be changed to comply with modern standards? I read somewhere that roofwalks are a no-no now, and I'm still worried about the those open vestibules. Or is that just paranoia?
Set up a length of track as a museum railroad and run the Shay with coaches back and forth. You can also have other old cars and engines around the museum as well. These guys do it with narrow gauge http://www.mngrr.org/, but you could do it with standard gauge just as well. No modifications needed.
Enjoy
Paul
Flashwave I can't see even 100 year old cars being grandfathered in.
I can't see even 100 year old cars being grandfathered in.
The White Pass & Yukon currently operates a number of all-steel passenger coaches that are built and painted to have the same basic appearance as old wood open vestibule cars. Clearly this is not interstate service, but it is not a problem. The staff keeps the passengers off of the end platforms when the train is in motion.
Knowledgeable railfans will know that those 36-foot cars are really characteristic of the Sierra RR only, but similary designed cars could be used in excursion service.
Bill
FlashwaveNaptown is set 1950s, but based on the above, I can't see even 100 year old cars being grandfathered in. I was hoping to "preserve" the old coaches, but if that won't work, then let's try something else. If one had all-new cars built in the 36ft style for authenticity's sake, wht would need to be changed to comply with modern standards? I read somewhere that roofwalks are a no-no now, and I'm still worried about the those open vestibules. Or is that just paranoia?
My mistake, when you mentioned converting the cars for HEP, I thought you were talking about modern trains since HEP is more of a 1970, 1980's and later thing. If you are modeling the 1950's then the cars you are "rebuilding' are only 20 years old since the 36 ft cars were built in the 1930's not in the 1800's. So you are rebuilding cars that haven't even reached their condemnable age. Typical Amtrak car in service today is older than those 36 ft cars would be in the 1950's.
IIRC, the Sierra Ry built their one each short coach and combine for the Angel's Branch in 1906, not the 1930s. It wasn't long after this that new wood frame, truss rod construction disappeared for good.
Fred W
dehusmanMy mistake, when you mentioned converting the cars for HEP,
No mistake, I was giving another oulet to run them under if modern didn't pan out.
(Not my picture...Check the time stamp on it too. Somthin' fishy...)
But this is one of 8 cars in question, if you were curious. (Yeah, I know you guys know what a roundhouse car is, scheme's diferent though.)
Keep them off the ends. We can do that.
"Hey MA! Those cool pictures you got at White Pass,you soulda notta done that!!!"
If one put up gates, and treated each end like an observation car, we still need to deal with the diaghram, which I can't do with the existing couplers, hmm, but would those gates fly if I could come up with a way to cross the coaches? I need to repalce the railings anyway, they aren't cementing firmly, the Sergent wand keeps ripping them up.
Get one of those beefy police officer-type figures that is holding a baton. Put him on one of the open-end platforms and tell folks that he's the OSHA Inspector.
You refer to a "diaghram", which may mean diaphram... which wouldn't be used on an open vestibule car anyway. Often there was a folding metal gate (of the XX design that would collapse to one side or the other) at the end railings. When the train is stopped and passengers are loading or unloading, folks are welcome to pass between the cars and the overlapping metal plate would allow this. Just before departure, the train crew would close these gates and secure the vestibules.
Curious, though: Does the car in the photograph really have the heating stove located mid-car directly in front of the baggage doors? The smokejack placement would suggest that....
My mistake I thought for sure that I had read they were more modern cars, I know they are special cases.
FlashwaveIf one put up gates, and treated each end like an observation car, we still need to deal with the diaghram, which I can't do with the existing couplers, hmm, but would those gates fly if I could come up with a way to cross the coaches? I need to repalce the railings anyway, they aren't cementing firmly, the Sergent wand keeps ripping them up.
If you are running them in the 1950's I don't understand what the trouble is. Just run them.
If you are running them in the 1990's there are huge problems ONLY if you are planning to run them in an Amtrak train. If you aren't running them in Amtrak, then its not a problem. If you were running them in an Amtrak train they there is pretty much no way you could operate them anyway. Even if you overlooked the fact that the trucks are outlawed, the brakes are outlawed, the underframe is outlawed, the superstructure is outlawed and they lack the right HEP, handicap access, etc. etc. Amtrak wouldn't let you mix cars that short with their long passenger cars. Actually, freight railroads wouldn't let you mix long cars with cars that short in a freight train. So don't even try to rationalize it. If you want to run them behind a Shay, just do it. Doesn't matter what era.
dehusmanIf you are running them in the 1990's there are huge problems ONLY if you are planning to run them in an Amtrak train. If you aren't running them in Amtrak, then its not a problem. If you were running them in an Amtrak train they there is pretty much no way you could operate them anyway. Even if you overlooked the fact that the trucks are outlawed, the brakes are outlawed, the underframe is outlawed, the superstructure is outlawed and they lack the right HEP, handicap access, etc. etc. Amtrak wouldn't let you mix cars that short with their long passenger cars. Actually, freight railroads wouldn't let you mix long cars with cars that short in a freight train. So don't even try to rationalize it. If you want to run them behind a Shay, just do it. Doesn't matter what era.
But that's half my fun, trying to get to something almost believeable with a backstory and a few simplistic things from something that's near impossible. Tht said, that above is exactly what I wanted to know. Did not know we couldn't mix such varying length cars. I suppose it makes sense when one thinks about it, but I'm not in a physics class. Guess that means Oscar and Piker are out of Private Varnish then, too. Another thread, another time. So, we'll "pretend" to build all new cars with modern structures and fake iron rods hanging from the bottom, gets us around the brake issue, and we can install the retention tanks the passengers much desire.
Beach Bill Get one of those beefy police officer-type figures that is holding a baton. Put him on one of the open-end platforms and tell folks that he's the OSHA Inspector. You refer to a "diaghram", which may mean diaphram... which wouldn't be used on an open vestibule car anyway. Often there was a folding metal gate (of the XX design that would collapse to one side or the other) at the end railings. When the train is stopped and passengers are loading or unloading, folks are welcome to pass between the cars and the overlapping metal plate would allow this. Just before departure, the train crew would close these gates and secure the vestibules. Curious, though: Does the car in the photograph really have the heating stove located mid-car directly in front of the baggage doors? The smokejack placement would suggest that.... Bill
I like the OSHA Inspector. I was thinking a lunch counter was needed, since it is a Shay (0 to 30 in .25 hours) we might be all day. (And, uh, pawn off cheap souviners for 200%profit, heehee) Could make stops. I wss thinking the rubber thingy (easier to spell) would allow us to stick it in the Cmbine, but if we just made a stop to allow everyone to walk around, would work too.
And yes, the smokejack is right over the baggage door. Roundhouse used thesame roof as all the coaches and combine, which hadthe smokjack centered so the heat source was centered. No one bothered to check if that was actually correct, they just threw in a roof. Least there is one. I suppose one could argue there's a pipe from the stove in the corner to the center, why I dunno, I think I'm gonna move mine.
Thanks guys, your a lifesaver! I may write confusing posts, but you get what I need in the end! I'm off to find modern looking 4 axle trucks.
And Handicap can be handled through the baggage doors with a folding ramp in either the combine or the Drover's Cab
Beach Bill The White Pass & Yukon currently operates a number of all-steel passenger coaches that are built and painted to have the same basic appearance as old wood open vestibule cars.
The White Pass & Yukon currently operates a number of all-steel passenger coaches that are built and painted to have the same basic appearance as old wood open vestibule cars.
If you're RR is circa 1950, OSHA and Amtrak are both 20 years in the future.
Federal regulations only affected equipment used in interstate / interchange service. Many railroads that still ran steam in the fifties or early sixties ran fan trips etc. often using very old equipment. There's no law saying they couldn't run what they wanted, as long as it was on their own property. Seems to me the CNW used wood cars with end platforms in commuter service (often I guess as smoking cars) into the 50's.
Unless you're running wintertime fantrips, no need for steam heat in the cars, let alone HEP which really came much later.
BTW except for RPO cars, there wasn't a requirement that passenger cars be all-steel, just that they have steel underframes. If you removed the car's trussrods and said it had a steel underframe, I doubt anybody would know the difference. Or you could say it has a steel underframe but the truss rods were put on when the cars were refurbished for excursion service to make them look more "old timey". Or you could just leave em as is, as I noted before, if you're only running the cars on your railroad you can use wood cars with truss rods and link-and-pin couplers if you really want to, as long as they're not used in interchange.
wjstixif you're only running the cars on your railroad you can use wood cars with truss rods and link-and-pin couplers
I've been told that;'s not true. The guys who built the Leviathan put a link and pin coupler on the engine, and wanted to link/pin some coaches, but as of Trainfest 2009 in Owosso, they couldn't get any straight answer from the feds about it. Not a yes, not a no, but enough of a "Ehhhh" to make them wait.
Flashwave wjstixif you're only running the cars on your railroad you can use wood cars with truss rods and link-and-pin couplers I've been told that;'s not true. The guys who built the Leviathan put a link and pin coupler on the engine, and wanted to link/pin some coaches, but as of Trainfest 2009 in Owosso, they couldn't get any straight answer from the feds about it. Not a yes, not a no, but enough of a "Ehhhh" to make them wait.
Could be the case now, but I don't think it was a problem 50+ years ago as long as it wasn't in interchange service. There was a Trains or Railfan article about a company that I think made RR ties and had flat cars to move the lumber around on. They used link and pin couplers at least into the 1960's if not later. There may have been some sugar cane railroads or something like that that did too??
I would think today the issue would be one of insurance re the link-and-pin couplers. In the old days a guy trying to hire on as a brakeman would be asked to hold up his hands. If he was missing a finger or two, they knew he was an experienced brakeman.