BRAKIE A layout set in let's say 1953 can not have certain type of diesels like the GP9 and RS11. We need to know what type of steam locomotives was still being used by railroad we are modeling..They may still have 2-8-2s in main line service but,all the 2-8-0s been replaced by GP7s and RS3s by 1953.E7s may be pulling first class trains while what remaining 4-6-2s are pulling second class trains. All yard work is being done by early Alco(S1,S2,S3) ,EMD(NW2,SW7) Baldwin or FM switchers by 1953.. Move the era forward to say '56 and all of the steam locomotives could be gone.. I won't touch the dominant type of locomotive used by the railroad we model...
A layout set in let's say 1953 can not have certain type of diesels like the GP9 and RS11.
We need to know what type of steam locomotives was still being used by railroad we are modeling..They may still have 2-8-2s in main line service but,all the 2-8-0s been replaced by GP7s and RS3s by 1953.E7s may be pulling first class trains while what remaining 4-6-2s are pulling second class trains. All yard work is being done by early Alco(S1,S2,S3) ,EMD(NW2,SW7) Baldwin or FM switchers by 1953..
Move the era forward to say '56 and all of the steam locomotives could be gone..
I won't touch the dominant type of locomotive used by the railroad we model...
Brakie's post also really made me start writing down questions about diesel replacements for steam. My plans so far are in the 70's but I did plan as far back as begining diesels. My RR bought all Alco locomotives, and just concerning 1st gen diesels they bought RS-3 and RSD-5's (1600hp), RS-11 and RSD-12 (1800hp), RS-27 and RSD-15 (2400hp). So what types of steamers would those diesels replace?
I don't have much room so the primary motive power would be RS-3's and RS-11's. If I ever did run a 6 axle it would have to be something smaller like the RSD-5, right now I'm only looking at a 18-20R curve for the helix.
markpiercejwhitten Do you know of any good resources (online hopefully! :) with information about Pennsy steam retirement dates? Pennsy's use of steam locomotives ended in 1957. Since you model 1959, you needn't/shouldn't have any Pennsy steam in operation if concerned about retirement dates. Mark
jwhitten Do you know of any good resources (online hopefully! :) with information about Pennsy steam retirement dates?
Do you know of any good resources (online hopefully! :) with information about Pennsy steam retirement dates?
Pennsy's use of steam locomotives ended in 1957. Since you model 1959, you needn't/shouldn't have any Pennsy steam in operation if concerned about retirement dates.
Mark
Do you know anywhere I can find out when (dates) the Pennsy retired what sort of steam?
jwhitten Do you know anywhere I can find out when (dates) the Pennsy retired what sort of steam?
Sorry, no. In my case, I acquired an out-of-print steam locomotive compendium for $200 which covered "my" railroad only.
Hopefully, someone can provide you a source for this information. It has got to be out there somewhere.
By the way, If not already a member, you should look into the benefits of belonging to "your" historical society.
http://www.prrths.com/
Well, if I can step in here, for the railroad that I model--Rio Grande--the last year of active steam operations (standard gauge, understand) was 1956. And though Rio Grande had been retiring steam since right after WWII, even in 1956 there were still quite a few wheel arrangements on the roster--4-8-2, 4-8-4, 4-6-6-4 and 2-8-8-2 to still warrant the fact that steam was somewhat active on the railroad.
Actually, the last steamers to be retired were their venerable 1100 series 2-8-0's, which for years had served the line, first as freight haulers, then branchline locos and switchers. Those chunky little Alco-built steamers (1908, I believe) outlasted all of the Rio Grande's other steamers. The very last revenue train under steam was pulled from Creede to Pueblo by 2-8-0 #1151. When she dropped her fires and went into the ovens at Colorado Fuel And Iron, standard guage steam was dead.
1956, from what I've observed in my reading, seems to have been a kind of 'bullseye' year for the general demise of mainline steam (though some railroads like the N&W and Missabe kept their steamers active for several more years).
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
twhite 1956, from what I've observed in my reading, seems to have been a kind of 'bullseye' year for the general demise of mainline steaM.
1956, from what I've observed in my reading, seems to have been a kind of 'bullseye' year for the general demise of mainline steaM.
Except for the 1957-8 recession, the SP would have probably run steam for a couple of more years (through 1958), leastwise that was the plan. No doubt the recession affected other railroads such as the Rio Grande.
Can I beg to differ on that? I'm not trying to cause more trouble or get flack shot at me, it's just that I remember reading that some RR's (it may have just been certain lines of a RR too) still ran steam in the very late 50's, like 57-58.
--------------------------------
Absolutely! All depending on the railroad in question.
Here's some proof.
http://www.rblanchard.com/gallery/nw_steam_bw/nwsteam_index.htm
Some short lines operated steam into the early 60s!
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Brakie, please don't set up a strawman. I didn't say all steam locomotive operation lasted only until 1956 for all railroads. I'm quite aware that steam lasted at least into the 1960s in isolated instances. I believe Buffalo Creek and Gauley (spelling) was one. The SP used steam as stand-in power on its narrow gauge line in Owens Valley until its abandonment in 1960, and so on.
markpierce Brakie, please don't set up a strawman. I didn't say all steam locomotive operation lasted only until 1956 for all railroads. I'm quite aware that steam lasted at least into the 1960s in isolated instances. I believe Buffalo Creek and Gauley (spelling) was one. The SP used steam as stand-in power on its narrow gauge line in Owens Valley until its abandonment in 1960, and so on. Mark
Now if agreeing with a post and presenting evidence is "sitting up a straw man" for a argument then,I fail to understand your logic especially when my reply was to MILW-RODR when he said:"it's just that I remember reading that some RR's (it may have just been certain lines of a RR too) still ran steam in the very late 50's, like 57-58"..This was said AFTER he quoted my post.
This is the second time you threw a barb my way in this discussion.
BRAKIE Now if agreeing with a post and presenting evidence is "sitting up a straw man" for a argument then,I fail to understand your logic especially when my reply was to MILW-RODR
Now if agreeing with a post and presenting evidence is "sitting up a straw man" for a argument then,I fail to understand your logic especially when my reply was to MILW-RODR
Sorry, Brakie, but how was I to know you were addressing MILW-RODR? You didn't give a quote or reference, and your message was directly after my post. Let's both have a beer and forget about it.
I can see 1956 as being a watershed year...at least I'd say it's as good as any. By then many railroads either had completely dieselized, or were well on their way to doing so, but steam was still let's say "not uncommon". By that time it was clear steam was really going to go away, and the increasingly rare steam railroads got more and more attention.
It would be interesting to know ( and I imagine the stats are available somewhere ) what was the first year that as many ton-miles were hauled by diesel as by steam?? Of course that stat might be different than the year in which the number of steam and diesel locomotives were the same, since railroads like the Missabe used a few big steam engines to haul very heavy ore trains until mid-1960.
1960 would be a good cut-off year for any regular mainline steam operations. I believe DMIR, CB&W N&W, and CN had all dropped steam by the end of that year. Some small railroads ran steam into the mid-sixties, and got a great deal of coverage in the railfan press, but the number of steam engines left in active service were very small.
markpierce BRAKIE Now if agreeing with a post and presenting evidence is "sitting up a straw man" for a argument then,I fail to understand your logic especially when my reply was to MILW-RODR Sorry, Brakie, but how was I to know you were addressing MILW-RODR? You didn't give a quote or reference, and your message was directly after my post. Let's both have a beer and forget about it. Mark
No problems..Instead of beer I'll have coffee..
wjstix I can see 1956 as being a watershed year...at least I'd say it's as good as any. By then many railroads either had completely dieselized, or were well on their way to doing so, but steam was still let's say "not uncommon". By that time it was clear steam was really going to go away, and the increasingly rare steam railroads got more and more attention. It would be interesting to know ( and I imagine the stats are available somewhere ) what was the first year that as many ton-miles were hauled by diesel as by steam?? Of course that stat might be different than the year in which the number of steam and diesel locomotives were the same, since railroads like the Missabe used a few big steam engines to haul very heavy ore trains until mid-1960. 1960 would be a good cut-off year for any regular mainline steam operations. I believe DMIR, CB&W N&W, and CN had all dropped steam by the end of that year. Some small railroads ran steam into the mid-sixties, and got a great deal of coverage in the railfan press, but the number of steam engines left in active service were very small.
Good point. Some western railroads, like Western Pacific had completely dieselized by 1952, while other California railroads like ATSF and SP were still running steam in regular service.
I have a fine video of Missabe steam taken during the years 1959-60, when the big Yellowstones were running out their last mileage and doing so with a heck of a lot of flair. And of course N&W stuck with steam so late that they skipped F-units completely and dieselized with hood units instead, LOL!
"And of course N&W stuck with steam so late that they skipped F-units completely and dieselized with hood units instead, LOL! "
a lot but not all of it boils down to economics. fuel and water supply had a lot to do with in on some roads while others had a fleet of steam locos that were pretty much close to junk. in that case, the worst diesel was better than what they had.
the N&W as you mentioned and my old alma mater, the IC had fairly well maintained and modernized steam as well as easy access to good supplies of coal. you can't stop technology but would you trade in a car that got 19 mpg for one that got 20 before it was cost effective to do so? especially if it was already paid for and did not need any major work done on it yet?
wjstix upjake Well I don't want to focus on the toilet issue too much, but I assume F-units, the first true mainline diesels, had one behind the cab or something? Would get kind of tiresome going up and down those step ladders. FT's had a toilet at the rear of the B-unit; they were originally designed to be used in A-B sets. I assume other F units had toilets too. http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/manual/ft-3766.gif upjake For example, in hindsight you look at the early RS-1 which looks like the perfect branchline diesel, and wonder why they didn't make record sales although most of the major roads bought a couple. I guess you can blame the Japanese. When the US became involved in World War 2, the government directed all new RS-1's to go to the military to use in the US and later to be sent around the world. (That's why early Russian diesels looked like Alco's, they copied RS-1's they got during the war.) IIRC the military even bought some (all?) of the RS-1's from the railroads that bought them before the war.
upjake Well I don't want to focus on the toilet issue too much, but I assume F-units, the first true mainline diesels, had one behind the cab or something? Would get kind of tiresome going up and down those step ladders.
Well I don't want to focus on the toilet issue too much, but I assume F-units, the first true mainline diesels, had one behind the cab or something? Would get kind of tiresome going up and down those step ladders.
FT's had a toilet at the rear of the B-unit; they were originally designed to be used in A-B sets. I assume other F units had toilets too.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/manual/ft-3766.gif
upjake For example, in hindsight you look at the early RS-1 which looks like the perfect branchline diesel, and wonder why they didn't make record sales although most of the major roads bought a couple.
For example, in hindsight you look at the early RS-1 which looks like the perfect branchline diesel, and wonder why they didn't make record sales although most of the major roads bought a couple.
I guess you can blame the Japanese. When the US became involved in World War 2, the government directed all new RS-1's to go to the military to use in the US and later to be sent around the world. (That's why early Russian diesels looked like Alco's, they copied RS-1's they got during the war.) IIRC the military even bought some (all?) of the RS-1's from the railroads that bought them before the war.
I remember seeing a World War 2 documentary some years ago that showed RS-1s (U.S. Army I think) running supplies through today's Tehran, Iran to Russia and thinking how strange to see them in a foreign place outside of the U.S.. Interesting railroad history.