The BNSF here in Tulsa has a yard job that serves industries upto 10 miles or so from the Cherokee yard. They also have a local that serves industries upto 25 miles from Cherokee yard. I am trying to figure out why one is a yard job and the other is a local. These trains seem to run about the same times each day.
Is it because of labor agreements? Why wouldn't they both be called locals? Is there any general rule for when a train is a yard job vs local? I am sure each RR has its own policy.
I am trying to decide if my trains should be yard jobs, locals or a mix of both.
Probably because the yard job never leaves yard limits. Yard limits aren't necessarily limited to the yard-proper, and may go on for some miles, and in an urban area, could cover several towns, multiple yards and industrial districts.
Mark
markpierce wrote: Probably because the yard job never leaves yard limits. Yard limits aren't necessarily limited to the yard-proper, and may go on for some miles, and in an urban area, could cover several towns, multiple yards and industrial districts.Mark
To add to that, trains within yard limits don't have to have certain equipment and safty devices, where trains outside the yard limits do. I'm sure labor laws (employee compensation & general operating practices) are different too.
An extreme example of large yard limits was the Escanaba and Lake Superior, an iron ore carrier in Upper Michigan. Back when trains were required to have cabooses in the eighties, they declared their entire railroad as being within yard limits - and therefore, weren't required to use cabooses.
Even in a remote area, like a division point yard or something 'out in the stix', yard limits would often extend for several miles either side of the yard.
As John Armstrong said in one of his books, yards and mainlines are basically two completely separate entities, each governed by their own rules and restrictions, and controlled by different people.
markpierce wrote: Probably because the yard job never leaves yard limits. Yard limits aren't necessarily limited to the yard-proper, and may go on for some miles, and in an urban area, could cover several towns, multiple yards and industrial districts.
You are confusing "switching limits" and "yard limits".
Yard limits are a method of authorizing operation on the main track. They are covered by rule 93 (traditional rule books).
Switching limits are set by labor agreements and specify the area in which yard engines work. The two may coincide, but in my experience that is pretty rare. It is very common for yard engines to leave yard limits.
Yard crews and local crews are crewed by different groups of crews covered by different contracts and with different rules on what service they can perform and how they are paid.
Just to confuse things, there are also "traveling switch engines" that are road crews that are paid local rate and can do a combination of yard and local service. Once again, a different labor agreement.
The labor agreements on what yard engines and locals can do can vary by railroad and crew district. Many of them are "grandfathered" from previous roads, so after a merger, some crews might be covered by the agreement from one former railroad and some crews by an agreement from another agreement.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I remember reading about a situation where one of the Northern Pacific's top trains (either the North Coast Limited or Mainstreeter) had their schedule adjusted so it could pick up and/or set out a mail car IIRC at some town on it's route while at it's regular station stop.
At first it worked well. The crew would stop the train, uncouple the F units from the main body of the train, do their switching, and be ready to go by the scheduled departure time.
However, the unions filed a grievance. Turns out the station was located within yard limits of NP's nearby yard. Since the road crew was doing switching work within yard limits, they had to get one day's pay for yard work on top of their day's pay as a road crew.
So, what NP ended up doing was having the train come to a halt, and a switch crew from the yard would come out and couple their switcher up to the road engines, and pull the engines from the train and do the switching, then put the engines back on the train...all while the road crew basically twiddled their thumbs.
Another twist on the above, on the UP ex SP between Sparks and Fernly NV the BNSF has trackage rights and new RR customers go to the BNSF. This area is growing due to California's inventory tax. However the BNSF local using BNSF power contracts UP crews. But when and where a car (UP for example) needs to be moved for what ever reason the BNSF (UP contract crew) cannot touch it and visa-vera. This can get quite confusing since both roads are sharing the same trackage including Sparks and Fernly yards.
Railroading is fun, Rob
Ok to clarify, the yard limits end approximately 2 miles east of Cherokee Yard and CTC is in effect until almost Springfield, MO. Both trains I described work well past the defined yard limits. I am thinking it has to do with labor agreements but not sure.
One more question,
What are the rules on transfers from other railroads? The UP transfer (UP crew and engines)brings cars for the BNSF into the BNSF yard and departs the BNSF yard with cars for the UP. A yard Job (BNSF crew and engines) delivers cars to the SKO interchange and returns light, while the SKO (SKO crew and engines) delivers cars to the BNSF yard and returns light.
Why would it be handled one way for the UP transfer and another way for the SKO transfer.
Again, I suspect labor agreements rule but not sure I understand the logic.
That's an interesting one re the SKO/BNSF transfers. Just a guess, could be a timing issue??
Maybe many cars from SKO are going to BNSF so they can go out on a particular train coming thru say around noon, so they need to get the cars to BNSF in the morning. Maybe at that time there aren't any cars for SKO to take back with them. But maybe that noon train regularly leaves a lot of cars with BNSF destined for SKO, so BNSF takes them over to the SKO yard in the afternoon. But SKO won't have more cars for BNSF until the next day, so the swooshers go back light to their own yard.
That could be. The BNSF yard job usually heads out to the SKO between 8-10 am while the SKO goes to the BNSF yard between 6-9 pm. I noticed the SKO primarily works after 3pm.
The UP train heads to the BNSF yard around 12pm like clockwork.
N737AA wrote:I am thinking it has to do with labor agreements but not sure.
It is almost entirely to do with labor agreements.
There are three basic intercahnge arrangements and you have described two of them.
Option 1, each railroad delivers to the other railroad.
Option 2, one railroad delivers and pulls from the other railroad.
Option 3, each railroad delivers and pulls from the other railroad.
Options 1 and 2 are commonly used in terminals where the interchange is made in a yard.
Option 3 is commonly used at on line locations where there is an interchange track or tracks.
Which option is used is set by an agreement between the railroads, they make a contract with each other that described who will deliver and pull, how often and in what track and when the cars will be considered delivered. It is a contract between the two railroads, not a labor agreement.
Option 1 is popular since it gives the delivering road the most flexibility, theoretically minimizes the delay one carrier gives to the other carrier's switch engine and each railroad is responsible for its own air test in its own yard.
Option 2 is popular because one railroad doesn't have to spend the time with its engine, but does have to support an air test on the cars in its yard.
This one is contract between carriers, not labor agreements.
dehusman wrote: Option 3, each railroad delivers and pulls from the other railroad.Options 1 and 2 are commonly used in terminals where the interchange is made in a yard.Option 3 is commonly used at on line locations where there is an interchange track or tracks.
Thanks Dave, So on my layout I guess I do which ever one suites me and it would be prototypical.
BTW, BNSF does option 3 with the TSU (Tulsa, Sapulpa, Union), and the SS (Sand Springs Railway). I believe both are yard jobs. The TSU job goes west of yard limits but the SSR job is within yard limits.
If your a yard job and leave switching limits you usually get a basic day.However you wont get paid right away lol.
Tulsa is under Frsico agreements if I am not mistaken ( Yes the mighty BNSF has so many flipping agreements that its confusing to the point of madness!!)So guess what? I have no idea about them. or why one would be a local and the other a yard job.My guess is back in the day a job that would come in the yard as a local could claim a penalty for switching its cars in the yard where a yard job was on duty. So they designate that one local as a yard job so they dont incur a penalty.That way they can come in and switch and not get any extra pay for it.But it is probably a higher paying yard job cause it goes out past switching limits. Its fun to read agreements and fiugure this all out.
Santa Fe has one that if you have hostlers on duty you get a days pay to hostle your power from a service track to your train. Cool you say? Well Santa Fe did away with Hostlers so there is no way they could get that claim.Well until the BN bought em and incorperated the agreements in Galesburg.So when a SF crew took their power out and put in the claim they were laughed at until they looked it up and said Huh I guess in Galesburg you do have Hostlers!!
Railroads! dropping 10,000 dollars to save a few pennies since 1840!
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train
What about special moves?
Two yard engines teamed to a heavy duty load with caboose makes a train right?
Only if the caboose has markers "wink" A train is a locomotive with or without cars and has a marker defining its end.Still it could be a yard job.
We have "yard jobs" assigned to local work on the old Santa Fe. most are Y HOD then the umbers. They work the industries out by LPC and Joliet.I know one that would use the 101 power from Galesburg and it would go to the harbor if memory serves correct.I know they would go out to a foriegn yard and flip the power in the summer for a certain conductor if the leader up had air and the others didnt.
Traditional train:
Engine or engines coupled, with or without cars displaying markers.
Modern variation:
Engine or engines coupled, with or without cars displaying markers and authorized to occupy the main track.