Bi-level C&NW detail Questions

[WP 3020]

I'm getting two C&NW commuter trains together, one in HO and Nscale, and I am looking for some detail answers. I'm concentrating on the HO project first. They are only going to be an E8, three coaches and a cab car set used in the 70s before Metro.

1. I'd like to find a roster with pictures of the E8s and cab cars.
2. What kind of lighting did they use on the ends going ahead or back?
3. Did the marker lights on the rear displaying red when going forward? Or were they used at all and just use the signal light under the twin backing headlights?
4. If the signal lights were used were they a gyrolight?
5. Where the marker lights employed on the E8s?
6. Are there any rooftop shots of the E8s showing the HEP detail out there?
7. Is there a book out there pacifically on the C&NW commuter trains?

 I've looked on the web and have collected many mags. and have a few books that happen to have some photos of the commuters. Any help with links and such would be very much apreciated. Thanks.

[ndbprr]

1. Can't help

2. Headlight - possibly two in the same casing side by side when at the head end. red marker lights required by law when on the tail end.

3. Marker lights on the back end are Federal law if i am not mistaken at least until the time of FREDS on freights

4. Can't help

5. To the best of my knowledge yes when being controlled from the other end and the E was pushing

6 & 7. Can't help

[NS2591]

1. As far as I know, E units aside from the Crandell cab units where not used on Commuter trains. F Units did that most of the time. I do run my CNW commuter Train with an E unit becuase thats what I've got and it did Happen. but most of the time it was F units

2. The headlight and MARS light where used on the Locomotive and a Headlight a Strobe light where used on the Cab car when pushing.

3. This one I'm not sure of. I belive that the Commuter Fs had their classlights left on, so that they showed red when pushing and where out when pulling

4. Marks where just standard Marker lights, on or off. To make the train more noticeable the locomotive was equipped with a MARS light. and the Cab car was equipped with a Strobe light.

5. The Crandell cabs I know for sure had red markers for pushing.

6. Most CNW commuter trains where operated with Steam heating and where later equipped with HEP. I don't know when they got HEP, I'm gonna say that they didn't get HEP untill Metra

7. As far as I know there isn't a book just for the Commuter trains of CNW, I would contact the CNW Historical Society for more info on that.

All of these answers are the best of my knowledge and they could be wrong. I hope I answered your questions well. 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

While the first C&NW bi-levels were indeed steam-heated, C&NW was a fairly early convert to HEP.  When the Peninsula 400 and Flambeau 400 were re-equipped with long-haul bi-levels in 1958, they were HEP-equipped and four E8A's and two F7A's were fitted with HEP sets to pull them.  As the suburban service was re-equipped with bi-levels around 1960, they were HEP-equipped and C&NW started adding HEP sets to F7A's and some E8A's.  The E7A's kept their steam generators to the end for the handful of intercity trains that kept their single-level cars.

[WP 3020]

Thanks for the answers, they help a lot. I've come up with a couple more questions now. Was the control stand in the cab car like what was in the E and F units or a whole other animal all together? I wonder what was the interior color in the operators compartment?

[Black Sheep 25]

Patrick Dorin's book "Chicago and NorthWestern Passenger Service: The Post Wars" would be a great place to start your research, because he goes into detail about the commuter service and the equipment that was used.

Start with Chapter 5 which is entitled: 'Scoots, Commuters and Metra' is listed with info about the cars, and also has a color photo section which also has info on the equipment.

Hope this helps, Black sheep,

"Do not lead me into temptation, I can find it myself!"

[WP 3020]

Thanks Black Sheep 25. By chance you wouldn't be a fan of the mighty F4U?

[Black Sheep 25]

The F4U Cosair aka 'The Zero Killer'

Yep I am a very big fan of that aircraft, everytime I play me Air Combat simulater game, when I have to do dogfights I alsways with the cosair.

Black Sheep 25

'DO not lead me into temptation, I can find it myself!"

[MILW Trains]

Having spent a fair bit of time around Harvard, Illinois, at the far end of the suburban district in the late 70s & early 80s, I'll offer the following:

0. I'd like to find a roster with pictures of the E8s and cab cars.

Might have some luck at the CNW historical Society site. All I ever saw at that late date were the rebuilt Crandall Cabs, and those very infrequently

0. What kind of lighting did they use on the ends going ahead or back?

Leaving Chicago, the engine was the front of the train and would have the headlight on full bright.

Around this period, the rules on display of markers changed to allow the use of the low beam headlight to indicate the rear of train, so when the engine was trailing (heading inbound towards Chicago) it was on, but roughly at half power.

0. Did the marker lights on the rear displaying red when going forward? Or were they used at all and just use the signal light under the twin backing headlights?

No – per Rule 19, marker lights must only show red to indicate the rear of a train. In this case, they were illuminated when the car was at the rear, or outbound from Chicago. They were not lighted when the cab car was leading (inbound) as it was now the front of the train.

That red lamp you’re seeing on the cab cars directly beneath the headlight was an emergency stop signal — it was only activated if the train went into an emergency brake application. This was an absolute STOP indication to any approaching trains.

0. If the signal lights were used were they a gyrolight?

Not at this late date. By this time, engines and cab cars were fitted with Western-Cullen amber flashing beacons above the cabs. These were left on all the time. The Gyralights were motor-driven and I'm not sure parts were even available by that late date.

Many of the F units still in commuter service at that time had the upper headlight plated over. Some were replaced with "gong" bells, while others had a simple yellow sheetmetal disc — and yes, there really were smiley faces :) painted on some of these!

0. Where the marker lights employed on the E8s?
All engines still used their markers – but only when they were the rear of the train.

0. Are there any rooftop shots of the E8s showing the HEP detail out there?
Not sure – probably some views of Fs as they were more common.

Is there a book out there pacifically on the C&NW commuter trains?

There have been a couple of books about Chicago passenger service in general, but I'm not sure anything specific to the North Western has ever been done.

Lance Burton

[Flashwave]

I wish I could be of more use, but there was an RFD Trains and Locomotives on the Bi-Levels. One was the history, but I think there was another where an E unti and Bis were used for a steam Excoursion. if you can hunt down the ep, you might be able to get the ep off Youtube and study screencaps.