If I had to do it again for DCC

[Anonymous]

Joe, you're the man! I can't recall your profession, but you should be able to substitute "video producer" for whatever it is very soon! I agree, most of the material out there concentrates on the wrong end of DCC for me. Of course I bought a system in 1998 and have since upgraded it. I didn't get Stan Ames book back then because I was familiar with most of the theory, etc and wanted to get some hands on with all the various systems, which I did at the 1998 National Train Show. I was going to buy Digitrax until I tried it at the show. I bought EasyDCC instead and have never looked back. That doesn't mean Digitrax isn't right for someone else. Depends on what "feels" right to you.

Cheers,

Ed

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr

It struck me there is no primer here of do's and don'ts for building a railroad for DCC operation. Things like where to end blocks, etc. I think we need to start a file of tips for those about to attempt a new railroad. Reinventing the wheel isn't my idea of progress. Any tips anyone would like to tell us?

nd:

I couldn't agree more!

Most material on DCC that I've seen so far spends a lot of time talking about the theory behind DCC, how to pick the right system, and then covers a few basics about using the system ... but the real practical experience sort of material on installing and using the system on anything other than a 4x8 isn't very often discussed.

Permit me a shameless plug here. I've been using DCC for 12 years now on my HO Siskiyou Line, and I thought I would gather what I've learned over that time and put it onto a DVD. I assume you already know what DCC stands for and that you already know what system you want.

I cover how to plan the location of your command station, boosters, programming track, and wiring. I discuss how to short-proof a DCC layout. I talk about more advanced decoder programming and installation techniques like installing and using DecoderPro, how to install working headlights (step-by-step) and how to install a sound decoder (step-by-step). All along the way I share various hints and tip tidbits you probably won't find much anywhere else (to-date, at least).

The DVD should be out late May. You can go to the distributor's site for more:

http://mymemoirs.net/model-trains-set1-vol3b.php

(end of shameless plug)

Also, I'll be starting a special "FORUM CLINIC" over in the general area soon on my 12 years of using DCC, and I'll be discussing many of these things there.

[rrinker]

See http://www.wiringfordcc.com for the full explanation. But basically, a DCC friendly switch has the stock and adjacent point rail at the same polarity (as opposed to both point rails taking the same polarity as whichever stock railt hey are up against) and an isolated frog (which can be powered via switch machine contacts). There really isn't that big of a problem - if your wheels are all in gauge you won't have a problem with the point rails, and if you don't run against a switch thrown the wrong way, there won't be a shorting problem at the frog end.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

Just catching up on this thread. What is a DCC friendly switch? What makes it friendly?

[rrinker]

1: No, you create the MU on the main, like all the other systems. Even decoder-assisted consisting can be done on the main with ops-mode programming.

2: I don't see this as a big deal. The ones that allow loco selection while wireless all claim to be better for 'operations" Oh? When doing prototypical operation, the road crew doesn't climb off one loco and pick up another, or set up the MU between units. That's the job of the hostler, who then hands off to the road crew who make their run and drop the locos off at some specified point in terminal. Duplex radio is overrated. And runs at a lower power output due to FCC rules. NCE is duplex, the rest are all simplex. Runor has it NCE is coming out with a simplex version which can put out a stronger rf signal, but since they just released radio repeaters to overcome the signal loss issues, I'm not sure.

[jwar]

Well I sure hope you guys dont mind another question
I was ready to go with a brand untill two words kinda grabed me, Simplex and Duplex. As I understand this, with Simplex one has to plug your radio hand held into the controll buss to access another engine and to MU.
With duplex one can do this on the fly without connecting to the control buss, being that the reciever and transmiters can talk to each other.

Question 1 With Digatrax ( Im sure is simplex) do you have to mu on the program track every time.

Question 2 Is NCE simplex or duplex, cant find it in their web site.

Thinking duplex systems are the way to go untill I get mor information. Dang it Im retired on a fixed income and hate to do things twice and just looking to get more bgang for the buck. Thanks guys ...John

[simon1966]

I am a member of some of the DCC Yahoo groups, including the Digitrax group. I find e-mail groups OK, but personally like the format of a forum like this better as it is easier to follow threads IMO, so I would also vote for a DCC section here.

[grayfox1119]

Add my vote for a seperate forum here for DCC. This is the wave of the future, it's time is now!!!

As for DCC info other than Tony's, there are several good books on the subject, have you bought and read any?

[Adelie]

No problem, John. Good luck, and by all means, if you feel your head spinning, let us know. We might not be able to help, but we can sympathize [(-D][(-D]

It's actually simpler than it appears, thankfully.

[jwar]

Thanks Adelie. Trying to get my ducks in a row before DCC season, and getting into the shell shock syndrom and a touch of vertigo.LOL, Thanks again guys,...John

[BRVRR]

A DCC forum is a good idea. Count me in!

[Adelie]

The center of the buss is ideal, but not mandatory. The goal is to reduce the length of the buss away from the booster as much as practical, but stepping up the wire gauge will mitigate that in most cases.

Two of my four planned or installed boosters are in the middle of their respective busses, with 40' runs on either side. The fact that they are almost exactly in the middle was luck-it was a convenient place to put them that was "about in the middle (by eye) of the runs. I haven't had any sort of problems with the length of the run with a 12-gauge buss.

I've read in various places that 50-55' is the Mason/Dixon line of potential trouble for a buss away from its booster. It sounds like you will be inside of that and okay using 12-gauge wire.

As far as locating the plugs near the yard, that certainly makes sense. I'm a Digitrax junkie, so I can only speak in detail to that anymore (my research on Lenz and NCE has probably long since become obsolete). I'd locate a set jacks near the yard and put the boosters where they are most strategic and convenient).

On the "over the door" question, I'd consider adding a booster to that side of the room instead. It avoids the phono plug, running the buss around the door, and gives you the added benefit of a separate power district on that side. The phono plug might work, but I'm always hesitant to introduce anything to the DCC bus that might cause interference or degradation to the DCC signal. That may just be my paranoia.

Hope this helps.

[jwar]

Thanks Randy and Alelie for the info on running each oval on it's own circuit. I am (DCC this Spring) putting in additional feeders and now in a quandry. My around the wall room is 11.5 x 15, how importent is it to get the booster in the middle of the buss run.

Both yards, Upper and lower, are on the west wall, swing ups in the NW corner and more swing ups in the center of the south wall.. Also a helix in the NE corner

Heres my delimmmma. IF I place the DCC system on the west wall, Im thinking closer to the yard for a teathered throttle. How importent is it to have the DCC in the center of the buss run. I also have Phono Plugs (DC) on my two lower swing ups to run power to the other side of the room. This works great on dc, what in your openion's will happen on DCC, or should I run the Buss over the doors??..Have a great day...John

[rrinker]

Yes indeed, it sounds liek we have a very similar plan. I don't have a complete plan for mine drawn up yet, but it's basically a big dogbone. Sort of folded - because there actually will be FOUR mains, at one point there is a flyover junction with another railroad, also double-tracked, and that one continues on over the entire route of the primary road, alternately in front of and behind the primary. Staging will be along the wall behind the main lines, hidden with scenery.

--Randy

[Adelie]

It sounds like we weighed the same things. Mine is essentially a folded dogbone hugging the wall, with each "run" being nearly 80 linear feet (so the full circuit is 320 feet). As luck would have it, the primary bank of boosters sits about exactly in the middle, 40 feet from each end. I have a few crossovers to support passing using the "wrong way" track, and those generally coincide with the main going from double to triple track. The third track gets attached to whichever power district it branched from. The crossovers will necessitate either individual auto-reversers or setting one of the mainline boosters as an auto-reversing booster.

I'm still debating how long to make the detection sections on the visible levels. The staging level was easy, since the decision was strictly practical (wanting to use detectors to "see" when trains would enter and exit sections of track). On the visible level, they will eventually trigger three-color signals, so a little more thought goes into that (have to make sure things are more prototypical than the occupied/unoccupied concerns of the staging area). I anticipate most trains to be 6 - 10 feet long. Some will be shorter, and the staging area supports trains up to the 20 foot range, so I may run one or two that long just for effect. Using 3 foot flex track sections, I'm batting around 9 or 12 foot detection sections. I figure I'll plant a set of resistor wheels on each caboose, and also selected freight cars that will be located in the middle sections of any behemoths longer than the detection sections.

Someday, I'll get time to put the Bunter Ridge on my Earthlink web page. I have a plan for it, but time is another story. Between building the thing, yard work (the backyard kind, not the classification kind) and this pesky job to pay for it all, the web page gets the short end of the stick!

[rrinker]

I did the inside and outside loop as different power districts because when I actually 'finish' the layout, one will be the Eastbound main and the other the Westbound main - and the idea being that a short on the west would not stall the east, and vice-versa. I plan to carryt his throught he restof the layout - rather than having a short section of BOTH mains as a power district, I will have a longer section of each individual main as the power district. It just made more sense to me.. I also figured it's easier to combine districts later than seperate them. If I find my power districts are too short, I can just put jumpers on the terminal blocks and connect the source to the track, bypassing any breaker - which is exactly how I have it wired right now, since I have not yet actually purchased any breakers.

--Randy

[Adelie]

Randy, I'm glad I'm not the only one to decide to put each of the parallel tracks on a double track mainline on a different district. I felt a little nuts when I decided to do that, creating two long, but "thin" districts was the opposite of most plans I have seen. My plan was always to divide the mainline into two distinct districts, so I'm not sure why I felt like I was going to be fitted for one of those jackets with the arms stitched together.

Anyway, that leaves me with districts for the outside track, inside track, main yard and staging area. I might tie the sidings into the main yard or staging area districts, depending on their physical location to the respective busses since those districts will never threaten the power limits of their boosters.

I have a few items to add to Trainnut's list:
1) Feeders, feeders, feeders. I drop them every 5 or 6 feet, and no farther than 3 feet from a gap.
2) Be methodical in testing new sections or converted sections. This will allow you to isolate problems more quickly than if you just hook everything up at once and go. I first connect new districts to a DC power pack to ensure it works in its most basic form (DC power). After I am satisfied, I move the district it over to the DCC buss with a temporary connection. The coin test is the first order of business, then running DCC locomotives. It is important to not just get them moving and watch them, since they might run perfectly well but not respond to commands if the DCC signal is somehow degraded. Change speeds, stop them, reverse them and generally run them through the treadmill. Finally, when I am satisfied with trackwork, wiring and general operations, I move the feeders to their final connection on the block occupancy detectors. I'm paranoid enough that I have never had a problem with that last step, having wrung them out during the DC or initial DCC steps-Other than the incident of the occupancy detector not detecting anything because I forgot to plug it in!
3) Don't forget to plug in block occupancy detectors, if you use them! Or any other device that needs its own power source.
4) Evaluate what existing locomotives you want to convert. While about anything can be converted, the time, cost and trouble of converting a DCC unfriendly unit may not worth it. It may be better to write the unit off the roster or replace it with one that is DCC equipped or easily converted. No set rules, it is a judgement call.
5) If you are serious about block detection (signals, crossing gates, monitoring traffic on hidden trackwork), remember you will probably need resistor wheelsets for your cabooses or EOT cars. This will allow the detectors to "see" the start and end of the train. How critical this is depends on the location of the signaling device along the detection section, the length of trains vs. the section length, etc.

Again, like Trainnut said, some may disagree with any of the above, but they are my observations.

[rrinker]

As long as you have no reverse loops or wye track arrangments, you should be fine. EZ Track has insulated frogs so there is no worry about extra gaps.

--Randy

[selector]

Randy, I am about to install a Digitrax SEB. I have used electric EZ-Track turnouts. Do I have so isolate them in any way, or just run them as is? I have no power districts, full (I hope) continuity around the loop and on all spurs (no gaps). Wiring is bus with feeders every few feet.

Thanks for your reply.

-Crandell

[rrinker]

I have a DCC forum on my web site as well, but I couldn;t handle everyone here goign there, not having a real boradband connection really, well, this is a family forum so I will just say it stinks. Along with Verizon and my friendly local cable provider who both decline to service this neighborhood.

[folkestonekeith]

Hey guys, I can't believe this, we in the UK are ahead of you guys in the US. We have a new forum started in the UK (www.rmweb.co.uk) and it contains a dedicated DCC forum. The forum only started last month (using similar software to this forum) but is already generating interest. Go have a look - no passports needed!!!

Keith

[Anonymous]

Tips,

12 or 14 gauge buss wires run around the layout

read a couple of basic layout wiring books, if you are rusty or new to the subject

Buy Dcc friendly turnouts if you can

locate the power booster near the middle of the run if you can

put kill switches on storage sidings

break the layout up into isolated districts so you can track down shorts (very large districts)

get to know some guys in town who use your system. go operate on their layouts

buy a variety of brands of decoders and see which ones work best with your system (they will all work, but in my experience some will work better than others)

don't put decoders in locos that don't run well in analog mode (regular DC)

use a continuity meter when laying track to check for shorts (around switches)

know how to correctly wire swtiches and what the various modifictions for DCC would be. Most of them are in my opinion basically good switch wiring.

keep an old DC power pack around to test locos before they are converted

make your first decoder installation in a decoder ready (DCC ready) loco.

start with one booster, unless your layout is huge.

These are a few of the things that I could think of off of the top. Some will not agree with things on this list and there are many ways to do stuff. As you get into the subject and actually get experience with DCC, you will form your own opinions about all of this

[rrinker]

OK, here's what I did. The first phase of my layout is a double main loop with a small yard and some sidings. I know that eventually I will want multiple power districts, with electronic circuit breakers like Tony's and additional boosters. With that in mind, I put gaps at the crossovers between the inner and outer main, and between the main and the yard lead. Thus I have three sections, outside main, inside main, and yard.
I know I will want detectiona nd signalling, but at this point I don't even have a complete plan for the overall railroad, so I have no idea where the block gaps will need to be for detection. So I cut no other gaps anywhere at this point. When the time comes, I will go back and cut those gaps and wire in the detectors.
So the only 'planning' I did for DCC was to keep in mind where the power districts would be. I'm clear on where that's going up to the next phase which runs down the short wall to the start of the main yard.

--Randy

[ndbprr]

Well my original post asked for tips when building a railroad for DCC. So far there are none!!!!!

[cwaldman]

I think it would be wise to have several DCC related threads. Otherwise your are right back where you started. Such as one on recommended brands, One on Do's and Don'ts, One on proven hints and Tips. But keep them edited to the true topics and not the inevitable pages and pages of follow up posts that make it hard to find aything.

For instance RR Line forums have tips on Workbench tips. The forum masters keep it limited to just the ideas. One right after another with out the constant posts well you could do this or do this ot try this.

Otherwise it just becomes anothe topic and people get tired of reading through them to find the facts.

Cletus

[jwar]

You guys are on target, a DCC forum topic would not only be interesting, I think it would generate massive hits. I also think it would be great for the hobbie and a benifit to the Model Railroder mag as well, as a highlight to the DCC Corner Dept articles.
Just my 2 cents...and non DCC yet... at that.....John

[selector]

Count me in.

Another popular forum has a dedicated DCC thread, and the first post is called a 'sticky' post that stays at the top of each new page. it is designed to get newbies to look there first to get inroductory material.

One thing I found there was that the discussions quickly become arcane and laden with abstruse taxonomies that drive the newbies away...sort of like I illustrated with this sentence. The whole subject is not highly intuitive, and it gets very taxing to try to follow the reasoning why, for example, a auto-reversing module is needed for "Y's" and turntables. This particular subject showed up recently on "The Guage", and the proponents of each side of the argument were firm because their methods, with or without AR modules, worked! Later explanations clarified that some turntables don't need the ARs; still, a newby might shudder and leave the DCC stuff before getting to the resolution.

Mu two-cents worth.

[rrinker]

I agree, a seperate DCC section would be a good idea. There's enough DCC posts made here and onthe general discussion forum that putting them together in a DCC section makes a lot of sense.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

Atlas has a DCC-specific forum on their website-

http://forum.atlasrr.com

Doug