The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls

[davekelly]

Muddy,

I haven't tried it as a backdrop. I purchased them as I have a couple of rather large structures on the project list to work on first and I want to avoid having numerous joints that would be required if I used the Evergreen sheets. I also was very surprised at the cost (one of those great deals that I just can't turn down). There are a couple threads on here discussing styrene backdrops and those that have tried it seem to think it works wonderfully. In fact after reading several of the threads and actually looking at the styrene sheets, I''m pretty convinced that when I get around to making a backdrop, styrene is the way to go.

As to your question. How far apart are the uprights? In looking at the sheets I got, it seems that if the sheet was securely attached along the bottom and the uprights were say about 4 feet apart, it would be pretty sag free. I am also guessing that the uprights wouldn't have to be all that bulky, perhaps 1/2 by 2's with a small cross brace to keep the upright, well, upright.

Hopefully, someone here has actually used the stuff for a backdrop and can fill both of us in.

[Leon Silverman]

If you want something light and flexible, check out flexible 6" diameter heating ducts. It is sold in 30" long cartons and can be stretched to 25 feet. You won't have to paint it. It only comes in black.

[Bergie]

Nice reference to the power trio from Canada, Rush. Reminds me I need to get some of their quality material on my iPod.

Bravo!

[Anonymous]

As an aside, Dave, how did the styrene work as background material. Since it will roll into an 8" diameter it is obviously good for curving around the corner of a backdrop or to line the inside of a subway tunnel. A curved section cut several inches high would likely make a solid structure for the inside of the tunnel.

020 is only a hair thicker than 1/64" and I'm wondering how much support a taller piece, perhaps 18" high would require to keep it from sagging. I would be using it on uprights on a free standing, lightweight layout and so will not have a solid wall to attach it to.

Wayne

[davekelly]

The sheets I bought (.040 and .020 thick) were rolled up into a tube and placed in a box with a cross section of 8 by 8 inches.

[MisterBeasley]

It's HO. The subway trains will be the Lifelike Proto 1000 R-17's. (A thousand thank-you's to LifeLike for these, by the way.) At some point I'd like to add a PCC car to the mix as well. The curves are mostly 18-inch radius.

Access is still being debated. I'm thinking of removeable roof sections, but another possibility is pulling out the exterior side-walls as "modules". Most of the subway is currently a loop around the outer edge of the layout, and the one spot where it goes down the middle is a "gorge" where the tracks will be on the surface.

How flexible is the styrene, and how much support will I need to hold it in a tight curve? With 18-inch radius curves, I'll need a 16-inch radius for the inner walls. That seems like a lot of flex for sheet styrene. I've also considered using straight segments (geometrically, "chords") to approximate the tunnel curvature.

I'm also leaning towards styrofoam because the texture is not glassy-smooth, and I can probably get by in this low-light environment by just spraying it flat black or charcoal gray.

[Anonymous]

Agreed, styrene would be easy to work with if you don't need a rounded tunnel roof. What kind of access are you going to provide?

Do we know what scale you are working in?

Wayne

[davekelly]

Mister Beasley,

How about sheet styrene? Try usplastic.com or is it usplastics.com? I got the site from a thread about styrene backdrops several months ago. Looking at materials to build larger structures, I ordered a couple of sheets. Very much cheaper than buying evergreen little sheets. I would think that such styrene sheets would give you a pretty large length of wall material that could be easily curved. Framework could easly be U shaped pieces of plywood (on the outside of the walls) or an interior framework of Plastrut I beams.

[MisterBeasley]

Yeah, this topic has been a lot of fun, and went in entirely unexpected directions. I had expected that the title would have prompted posts about graffiti in subways, but that didn't happen at all. I hadn't given much thought to illumination for a while, so those suggestions were very helpful, and the "under construction" idea has moved directly to the drawing board.

But...what I was hoping for was more ideas for building the walls themselves. Most of my tunnels will be curved, so PVC pipe doesn't work. (I was looking for 18-inch diameter at the hardware store, and they don't make it.) For now, I'm thinking of using a strip of half-inch by quarter-inch balsa wood curved and mounted on edge as a "catwalk"and then gluing thin styrofoam (like from a throw-away cafeteria tray) as the wall. The roof will be the foam board which forms the base for the scenery above.

[davekelly]

Ted,

I agree. The number of great ideas on any given topic is why I love reading this forum!

[Anonymous]

Isn't it interesting, the myriad of opinions forthcoming on any given Topic and the choice of language employed to tout a person's own favorite choices? Mister Beasley's Topic is a good example of prompting a bevy of creative solutions to a unique modeler's challenge. DigitalGriffin came up with using El wire which lends a neon effect to brighten the tunnels. Muddy Creek suggests "daylight brightness" for filming the tunnel segments. Both, are possibilities. Perhaps, rather than using the soft warm glow of incandescent lamps "blasting" the tunnel at evenly spaced intervals, another scource could be from the lead car itself? Granted it would be neccessary to lighten-up from the usual grimmy black walls and ceilings to perhaps a battleship gray, but a strong light emmited from the "head" coach down the rails ahead might capture the claustrophobic effect of the tunnel? Just another option thrown into the "mix." Best of luck.

[Anonymous]

Yes, Boston tunnels are 'cut and cover' with short angles or curves twixt wall and ceiling.

There are a few bulbs strung down the tunnels. However, it would be interesting to experiment with a camera in the actual lighting. The stations are brightly lit, and that light spills a ways into the tunnels and trails off. There would be some glint of light off the rails and walls from the scarce, but regularly spaced overhead lights and the headlight of the train; and also signal lights suddenly popping up in the murky gray, as well as the headlight and coach lights coming out of the windows of passing trains on the other track. Could result in some nice effects.

Cheers,
Maureen

[DigitalGriffin]

You could have part of the subway tunnel under construction. And there's always construction on most subways. Look how long the "big dig" in Boston took.

And where there's construction there is bright construction lights and people working.

A number of subway tunnels run parallel to road track which is lit with long tracks of florecents in the upper corners. You could buy some EL wire which would nicely model those florecents. They would be similar to what you see here:

http://www.xoxide.com/elwire.html
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=00-888-065&depa=1
(You'll probably need an invertor or 12VDC supply for the first)
The only disadvantage is you would have to replace EL's every couple of months.

Or maybe a LED light bar
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=00-888-051&depa=1
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=00-700-008&depa=1


Penn Station in New York was a laberinth of steel support columns with a flat roof deep underground. That could be a possibility also as that is brightly lit.

Okay those as my ideas for what they are worth. But if you still want to blast it with incadecents, more power to you. It's your layout, do what makes you happy I say!

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't give a hoot that you typically can't read a book inside a subway tunnel. Put a string of lights in there on a dimmer and crank those babies up to daylight brightness when you run your camera train. We want to see video!

Wayne

[Anonymous]

I've noticed that the "cut and cover" method of excavating subway tunnels results in flat ceilings and side walls braced with 45 deg. angle steel members from walls to ceiling (appx. 4 ft. below ceiling level). Then, tunnels that were bored with boring machines have a semi-circlular appearance (more common in Europe). As I recall, both Boston and N.Y.C. subways were the "cut and Cover" sort. There are many excellent suggestions for added details to make an otherwise lack luster environment more interesting. Would it be too far a "stretch" to have strings of scale incandescent light bulbs spaced at perhaps 20 scale feet intervals along the walls? I seem to recall this feature on the I.R.T. line "uptown." These lamps were of a yellow hue and not the bright white light we expect today. In the stations, florescent tubes were commonly used for a very bright "white" illumination. I believe there are sound effect recordings of subway trains still available, maybe Google? Best of luck on this most unique challenge.

[DigitalGriffin]

Not to put a damper on the plans, but isn't that tunnel going to be awefully dark. Most portable cams like that don't do very well in low light situations.

This leaves you with two options:
1) Light the tunnel...not very subway like unless it's at the station platform
2) View grainy darkness

Sorry, hate to be the negative Nelly on that one....But it does sound like a neat idea.

[Anonymous]

Since this subway thread has taken a turn on to the folk music track, a logical suggestion for modeling the the T would be to have tiny speakers playing music of the musicians who regularly perform there.

Peter Mulvey actually recorded his album "Ten Thousand Mornings" on a Boston subway platform. There is a CD of tunes by other Boston subway musicians whose title escapes me. An album of NY musicians is "Subplay: Subway Musicians of New York ."

When Mike Dukakis was governor of Mass. he rode the trains regularly and somehow got musicians from the Bostons Symphony to play on the platforms, so perhaps some chamber music might be heard over the sounds of your trains.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Muddy Creek

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

If you explore around the T, just don't become another Charlie.

[:D]

Did he ever return?

Wayne

he may ride forever 'neath the streets of Boston! He's the man who never returned!

The Kingston Trio had the hit record not too long after thier hit of Tom Dooley. The story making the rounds at the time said the MTA song had actually been a campaign song for a Boston politician. The last line on the hit version was "Fight the fare increase, vote for George O'Brian, get ol' Charlie off the MTA."

[davekelly]

This is a pretty cool site which discusses the song.

http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/jdreed/t/charlie.html

[MisterBeasley]

At an elementary school function some years ago, the grandfather of one of my daughter's classmates showed up and sang that song. He claimed to be the original author. I've got no way to either confirm or refute this. It was originally a campaign song for George O'Reilly, who was running against the fare increase. When I was a student in the Boston area many years ago, I was surprised to see that they still had the system of pay-as-you-enter AND pay-as-you-leave in place on some of the light-rail lines.

[jkeaton]

One distinctive feature of the walls of the subways I've been on (Toronto, Montreal, Washington DC, Atlanta, Prague, Berlin, Budapest) is that there are often cables on hangers along the walls, and these are often not straight, but hanging in gentle curves between the hangers -so that if you're looking out the subway windows the cables seem to be going up and down as the train passes by. Against the plain, flat, concrete (usually) walls, this is quite dramatic. Some lines also had pipes running outside the tracks - I was told these were for carrying the water being pumped out of low spots.

Jim

[davekelly]

No, he never returned, and his fate is still unlearned! (I remember this song from Boy Scout Camp - used to be a favorite!).

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

If you explore around the T, just don't become another Charlie.

[:D]

Did he ever return?

Wayne

[Anonymous]

I've wandered all about the back areas of Scollay Square Station (now Government Center) taking pictures. I don't know if its allowed, but no one yelled at me [:I] A few workers saw me and didn't yell. I even asked them if they knew where the old Scollay sign was (actually, I knew where it had been and had already spotted it was gone, but it was a good excuse to chat with them and establi***hat I had some sort of reason for being there; they didn't know what I was talking about at all, but pointed off down one of the back hallways. So I thanked them and went trooping off down the hallway, taking that as close enough for permission, and giving me a good alibi in case of future encounters)

Someday I might make a micro layout of just the station. Since it includes a wye that was previously used for turning trolleys that aren't continuing outbound, all you need is a cross-over just past the station on the inbound tunnel so cars can return, and it would be a full functioning layout.

There's a stretch of abandoned platform along the wye that for years still had an old Scollay Square sign left over from the remodelling in '63 when it became Govt Ctr. You could see it out the window coming into the station. Alas that sign went away not too long ago. But that abandoned platform now leads to some short hallways, doors to storage rooms, and a stairway up to a grating in the brick pavement of City Hall Plaza!

If you poke around beyond the platforms to peak at the trackwork, those grimy black walls are indeed pretty grimy, so wear clothing you don't mind getting grimed.

For pre-published photo references, Arcadia Publishing has a couple of books on Boston:
* Boston In Motion (mostly trolleys)
* Trolleys Under the Hub (actually not too many underground photos, but enough to give you plenty of architectural details)
* Boston's Blue Line
* Boston's Red Line

Cheers,
Mo

[rrinker]

If you explore around the T, just don't become another Charlie.

[:D]

I'm dating myself. Well, not really, because that actually goes back BEFORE my time.

--Randy

[MisterBeasley]

Good ideas, thanks. I've been thinking of handing in my dime at the Scollay Square station and taking the digital camera to explore Boston's T myself. I e-mailed their security types about whether photography is allowed, but they never got back to me.

I've been thinking of using thin styrofoam for the walls, or maybe even cardstock paper printed with some sort of grungy brick. The roof is going to be the base for the ground layer of scenery and track. It will be single-track most of the way.

[Anonymous]

Oh, and don't forget that there's small billboard ads running between the tracks, just about the full length of the platform. These are hung on beams that run along the upright posts, facing across the track to the platform where everyone will stand and stare at them while looking for the train. There will be some ads spaced along the wall at the back side of the platform, as well as system maps of the subway, and maybe large scale street maps. Interchange stations for multiple lines may have news kiosks or coffee stands set into the wall too.

--Mo

[Anonymous]

Looking out the windows of the T in Boston, the walls are plain flat walls that are pretty grimy black. in some places there are shallow archways set into the wall, where workcrew can duck in when a train passes. There's posts down the middle between the tracks. Lots of pipes and conduits running down the length of the ceiling. A working signal system would be key to liven up the video with appropriate lights as the train is approaching each station. In addition to the Green, Yellow, and Red lights you would expect facing towards the train, there's also a white light that faces ahead of the train towards the passenger platform, its mounted on the side wall. That light goes off a few seconds before a train approaches, presumably a warning for any workers to clear the tracks

Fun bits for the train cam would be abandoned stations with older style station signs, and a good place for squatters, and abandoned track that veers off into unused tunnels, or alligator dens [:)]

Cheers,
Mo

[Anonymous]

Id use liquid cement molded around an 6" pvc pipe although it's gonna be heavy.

[dehusman]

YOu could use black corrogated drain pipe with a section cut out. The ribs would look like archways and make sure you can see the motion of the train, since the cam will see them whizzing by.

Dave H.