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I cannot NOT turn my locos -- hand me my pick-axe.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Wednesday, July 20, 2022 12:20 PM

crossthedog
You used the word "hostle". I've heard of a hostler as one who tends horses; it's an old word with a wonderful history, but I've never seen it used as a verb nor in reference to nonequine motive power. Is that a common usage?

I've heard it used here in Canada, at a now long-gone roundhouse, and also in a couple of places in the U.S., once at Steam Town, and other times at a couple of shortline enginehouses in Pennsylvania, where I had several very enjoyable cab rides, thanks to a good friend, who was himself, a railroader, and knew dozens of other railroaders.

Keep in mind that steam locomotives were often referred to as "iron horses".

Wayne

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Posted by crossthedog on Wednesday, July 20, 2022 9:32 AM

ctclibby
Many moons ago I met a guy in an AA meeting who hostled down there.

Hi Todd. Nice to meet a friend of Bill on here. What a great experience. They certainly are not so loose with the security down there now. When my daughter was very small I took her into the office there and asked if I could show her the engines in the roundhouse. There were three BNSF employees inside. The two at the desk were young man and woman. She was for "no, it's against the rules". He was indifferent but deferred to her. A third guy, an older guy, came in through the door to the roundhouse. He was all for letting us in there and wanted the lady boss to let him show us around. She argued that we didn't have personal protective gear (helmet, vest, etc.). He said he could probably scrape some up for me. It was causing her a problem because she just wanted me gone and this older guy (probably your friend from your anecdote) kept coming up with postive solutions to her objections. She finally allowed as I could step inside the door with my daughter in my arms and we could watch for a few minutes. They were bringing a big diesel into the house at that moment. That was fun.

Years later I wanted to photograph some old Geeps that were still in the green and white BN livery next to the roundhouse and they came down hard negative. Can't have the public wandering around on the property. Times have changed since 9/11.

You used the word "hostle". I've heard of a hostler as one who tends horses; it's an old word with a wonderful history, but I've never seen it used as a verb nor in reference to nonequine motive power. Is that a common usage?

-Matt

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

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Posted by ctclibby on Saturday, July 16, 2022 3:30 PM

Matt - that would be interesting as Interbay ( and associated yards ) are the western terminus isn't it? Many moons ago I met a guy in an AA meeting who hostled down there. Told me to come down and he would show me around. Ya, some show around he did. Had me moving power units around, fuel line to wash racks and back to the ready line. Almost got to 'hump' a cut of cars in Balmer until one of the uppety-ups happened by wanting to know who is was. Oh well, just running power around was nothing but great! Conductor working with us wanted me to go and signup with the RR. Already was doing my degree in electronics and wanted to keep with that. Also told them that I had tried to get on with the railroad ( any railroad ) all of my life and it just wasn't happening. Might have been a good thing as I still drool when i get close to the things!

Todd Hackett

 Libby, Montana 59923

 I take only pictures then leave footprints on railroad property that I know is not mine, although I treat it as such...

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Posted by crossthedog on Thursday, July 14, 2022 1:01 PM

@Todd, thanks for those links. I always like seeing old turntables. I think I read in Trains mag that BNSF is going to quit the whole of Balmer Yard at Interbay here in Seattle, which means we'll lose the turntable down there. It is visible from several bridges and other spots around the perimeter of the yard so it's always been a fun place for railfanning.

-Matt

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

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Posted by ctclibby on Wednesday, July 13, 2022 4:28 PM

Late to the party again. As to the TT West of the Missip - how about Missoula, MT. This one is still in operation although the RH has been gone for a few years. Now you can be prototypical and turn your engines!

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.8757054,-113.9911176,372m/data=!3m1!1e3

And one from Spokane ( Parkwater )

https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6737073,-117.3283694,231m/data=!3m1!1e3

Amazing you can not just insert images. On top of that I am away from home so I can't put it on the web server at this time so hence the google map link.

Oh, you may have to select the Earth view layer to see the actual photo.

 

Todd Hackett

 Libby, Montana 59923

 I take only pictures then leave footprints on railroad property that I know is not mine, although I treat it as such...

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Posted by crossthedog on Tuesday, June 21, 2022 8:00 PM

cowman
I haven't read all the replies throughly so this may be a repeat. The Kadee coupler sight not only tells you what coupler will fit on the front of steam locos, but also shows you how to modify your loco to have that coupler work properly. Good luck, Richard

Thanks Richard. I made it work, basically, by not using a box at all but just looping a whisker coupler over the boss and covering the area with a homemade plastic lid, screwed down into the boss.

But I'd love it if you sent a link right to the page you are thinking of, because I've looked on the website and there's lots of info there about a lot of things, and I could not find anything about mounting a front coupler on an old Roundhouse steamer.

After reading all the responses, what I (think I) know is, if a #262 box does not fit into that pilot hole -- that's the narrowest Kadee box -- then I'll have to widen the hole. And if the boss that I just tapped for a 00-80 screw interferes with putting the box in there, then I'll have to grind out the boss. Any way I go, it will be a bit of work.

-Matt

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

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Posted by cowman on Tuesday, June 21, 2022 4:23 PM

I haven't read all the replies throughly so this may be a repeat.

The Kadee coupler sight not only tells you what coupler will fit on the front of steam locos, but also shows you how to modify your loco to have that coupler work properly.

Good luck,

Richard

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Posted by Doughless on Tuesday, June 21, 2022 9:25 AM

MidlandMike

 

 
Doughless
Also, the engine will be facing downhill as it pulls the train up the steep grade, which helps keep the water in the boiler because of the angle, so a railroad might want to pull the train uphill anyway for that reason. ...

 

I thought they wanted the loco facing uphill to make sure water is covering the firebox top?

 

Hmmm.  Maybe I got that backwards.

- Douglas

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Posted by crossthedog on Monday, June 20, 2022 12:06 PM

doctorwayne
...but in a more serious vein, I still like your sketch of the simple turntable that you submitted previously. Don't worry about the downhill version exposing the crown sheet, unless you've actually filled your locomotive with water.

It's sort of a cool idea, isn't it? It's the kind of thing my dad would have done, only he was a furniture builder so the design would have been elegant and the execution flawless, and all done with scraps from the shop, too. I'm pretty happy that I was able to come up with something and it's tempting to build it just to see if I can. Although it's also nice to hear of ample precedent for backing along the branch so I don't need to feel pressured one way or another.

-Matt

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Monday, June 20, 2022 11:03 AM

crossthedog

So what's the concensus... are we saying go up and down the branch facing uphill, with a coffee break right before the crest to let the firebox cool off?

 

With tongue firmly in-cheek, I'd suggest that you scrap the locomotive and convert your layout to a funicular...

...but in a more serious vein, I still like your sketch of the simple turntable that you submitted previously.  Don't worry about the downhill version exposing the crown sheet, unless you've actually filled your locomotive with water.

Wayne

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Posted by crossthedog on Monday, June 20, 2022 10:19 AM

So what's the concensus... are we saying go up and down the branch facing uphill, with a coffee break right before the crest to let the firebox cool off?

 

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, June 20, 2022 9:23 AM

MidlandMike
I thought they wanted the loco facing uphill to make sure water is covering the firebox top?

Oh, yeah!  Job One is to keep the crown safely covered at any time the fire is drafted.   And, really, at all other times too...

Don't be fooled by those rack engines that look like they're 'kneeling'.  The boiler is supposed to be level when the engine is actually working hard.  

I know of one locomotive (Dixie 576) that was equipped with special level plates on the water glasses to indicate correct working level when negotiating 2% grades.  If I recall correctly some of the larger articulateds had a whole separate gauge to be used under such conditions.

The real problem came when a hard-working locomotive 'summited' and started back down the grade on the other side.  The fire would still be hot from the ascent, and if the water rolled forward in the boiler, even full injection/pumping might not keep water over the crown and chamber top.  Even a few seconds under those conditions might be critical, with the situation being worse if there was already some thermal-cycling damage in the structure.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Sunday, June 19, 2022 11:13 PM

Doughless
Also, the engine will be facing downhill as it pulls the train up the steep grade, which helps keep the water in the boiler because of the angle, so a railroad might want to pull the train uphill anyway for that reason. ...

I thought they wanted the loco facing uphill to make sure water is covering the firebox top?

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Posted by crossthedog on Sunday, June 19, 2022 3:34 PM

Doughless
I agree with others that say to simply pull the train up the hill backwards, then later use the runaround to then pull the train forwards down the hill. Operate the steam loco like an RS-1. IMO, your branch line represents a shorter line where there is no need to turn the loco. No coaling tower, maybe not even water at the top. The engine gets all it needs from facilities at the lower yard and re-waters on the return trip. If anything a small water tower would be placed their just in case. Also, the engine will be facing downhill as it pulls the train up the steep grade, which helps keep the water in the boiler because of the angle, so a railroad might want to pull the train uphill anyway for that reason. I belive Bachmann makes a 2-6-0 and a 2-8-0 that have a tender mounted reverse headlight and working front couplers, should you get impatient with your model building efforts and seek a simple (but costly) solution.

Good points, all, Douglas, thank you. Early on in my return to modelling, I bought a DCC Great Northern 2-8-0 from BLI. It has that tender light, large and bright. It's one of the things I like best about that loco, for some reason, although it hadn't occured to me to wonder why it was there, and I wasn't running the engine backwards. I got bored with DCC pretty quickly, but I don't guess it would take much to mount a similar light on my DC tenders, even if it was just a dummy light.

-Matt

 

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

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Posted by Doughless on Sunday, June 19, 2022 11:36 AM

I agree with others that say to simply pull the train up the hill backwards, then later use the runaround to then pull the train forwards down the hill.  Operate the steam loco like an RS-1.

IMO, your branch line represents a shorter line where there is no need to turn the loco.  No coaling tower, maybe not even water at the top.  The engine gets all it needs from facilities at the lower yard and re-waters on the return trip.  If anything a small water tower would be placed their just in case.

Also, the engine will be facing downhill as it pulls the train up the steep grade, which helps keep the water in the boiler because of the angle, so a railroad might want to pull the train uphill anyway for that reason.

I belive Bachmann makes a 2-6-0 and a 2-8-0 that have a tender mounted reverse headlight and working front couplers, should you get impatient with your model building efforts and seek a simple (but costly) solution.

- Douglas

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Posted by doctorwayne on Friday, June 17, 2022 9:40 PM

crossthedog
Incidentally, your photos actually do not enlarge.

Hmm...that's unusual, but may be related to photobucket's recent "upgrade", which has me completely befuddled. 
If it's going to be as bad as it is currently, I won't be posting any photos here at all, and I'm definitely not going to be looking for another hosting site for photos, as tranferring 8,000 photos would be well beyond the time left on my remaining lifespan.

Here, I hope, is the enlarged version...

...but even though it was enlarged before I posted, it's certainly not enlarged now.

I wonder if there's any possibility that this Forum and photobucket have the same folks running both sites? Whistling

Wayne

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Posted by crossthedog on Friday, June 17, 2022 9:30 PM

doctorwayne
Piano wire was used only on the 10 Wheelers (first photo), as there was only a small hole in the casting that projects forward from the beam of the pilot. The hole was not threaded, but it was drilled completely through, as shown in the second picture, so I had to distort the top end of the wire so it wouldn't simply slide through and fall out the bottom. If you click on the photo, it will enlarge, giving a clearer view of the set-up. Wayne

I think I see it now, thanks for the clarification.

Incidentally, your photos actually do not enlarge. At least not for me. If I click 'em, they open in Photobucket but they're the same size. I often wish I could see more detail in your magnificent photos but they are always the same size as in the post.

And also incidentally, I had success today getting a coupler on the front of my old Atlantic, but I'm going to update the original post about it.

-Matt

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Friday, June 17, 2022 8:01 PM

crossthedog
where exactly is the piano wire in these scenarios?

Piano wire was used only on the 10 Wheelers (first photo), as there was only a small hole in the casting that projects forward from the beam of the pilot.  The hole was not threaded, but it was drilled completely through, as shown in the second picture, so I had to distort the top end of the wire so it wouldn't simply slide through and fall out the bottom.
If you click on the photo, it will enlarge, giving a clearer view of the set-up.

Wayne

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Posted by crossthedog on Friday, June 17, 2022 4:47 PM

doctorwayne
I have two of these brass 10 Wheelers, with cut-off coupler shanks, held in-place with a piece of piano wire...

Doc, .... em...where exactly is the piano wire in these scenarios? And how does it hold the coupler in place. It doesn't look like you're using piano wire as a pin in place of screws because I can see the screws there. Can you enlarge on this, please?

-Matt

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Friday, June 17, 2022 12:08 PM

wrench567
It doesn't have the swing as a proper #5 but has never given any problems at all.

Yeah, the limited swing is good enough, since when it's coupled to a car (or another locomotive) with a "normal" coupler, the normal one will compensate for the limitation.

I have two of these brass 10 Wheelers, with cut-off coupler shanks, held in-place with a piece of piano wire...

...and there's no portion of it, under the pilot, to interfere with the four-wheel lead truck...

...while this brass Mogul...

...has a full Kadee coupler box, partially protruding from the pilot.  While I could have substituted a long-shank coupler, I prefer the looks of the shorter shank, which both clears the coupler's trip pin from the pilot, and also the trip pin of any car coupled to it.
Underneath the pilot, a screw holds the draughtgear box in place...

...with no impediment of the swing of the two-wheel pilot truck.

Wayne

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Posted by crossthedog on Thursday, June 16, 2022 10:20 PM

wrench567
I took a long shank KD and cut the mounting lug off to give it the longest shank possible. Drilled a small hole near the end of the shank and used a small screw through the hole and into the pilot. I think the screw was 00-80.

Pete - That's the one. Double-oh-eighty. I bought the tap and the drill and a clearance drill.

So are you saying that you did not drill into a boss that was there for the purpose but instead drilled a new hole for'ard of the coupler mount boss?

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

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Posted by wrench567 on Thursday, June 16, 2022 9:17 PM

  Matt.

 My brass 2-6-0 came with a dummy coupler up front. Same scenario thin slot and not very wide. I took a long shank KD and cut the mounting lug off to give it the longest shank possible. Drilled a small hole near the end of the shank and used a small screw through the hole and into the pilot. I think the screw was  00-80. It doesn't have the swing as a proper #5 but has never given any problems at all.

    Pete.

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Posted by crossthedog on Thursday, June 16, 2022 7:47 PM

gmpullman
Incidentally, it seems the area around South Station was pretty treacherous in those days!

Kids these days, sheesh. You give 'em a new toy and they break 'em.

I really like that loco in the "bidirectional" drawing. Wouldn't mind having one of those for branchwork.

This conversation started actually on my other post about putting a front coupler on my Roundhouse 4-4-2, but I'll mention here that I went to my LHS today and the guy helped me identify a tap and drill and a screw that might work in that very narrow boss in the front coupler area.

-Matt

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

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Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, June 16, 2022 7:16 PM

Overmod
A number of railroads -- Ed will have data and pictures -- optimized some of their power to run 'in reverse' with a pilot on the tender, better headlight arrangement, etc.

Maybe the visibility wasn't all that great afterall:

 South Station (Boston & Albany tank locomotive No. 307) by Boston Public Library, on Flickr

 Train wreck. Boston & Albany R.R. tank locomotive No. 307. B&A R.R. wrecking crane No. X1654 assisting. by Boston Public Library, on Flickr

Boston & Albany D-2 class is but one example of "bi-directional" steam.

 D_class by Edmund, on Flickr

Incidentally, it seems the area around South Station was pretty treacherous in those days!

 Boston & Albany R.R. wreck near Back Bay Station by Boston Public Library, on Flickr

 South Station - Locomotive tips over. Boston & Albany R.R. loco by Boston Public Library, on Flickr

Regards, Ed

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, June 16, 2022 1:40 PM

crossthedog
 
richhotrain
During the steam era, passenger trains were pulled into Dearborn Station at 8th Street in downtown Chicago. After the passenger car consist was uncoupled from the steam engine, the loco would back up to the engine servicing facility at 49th Street. That is 41 city blocks or just over 5 miles. Along the way, the steam engine had to back up over the 26-diamond configuration at 21st Street.
 
Rich 

Rich, that must have been fun to watch.

I wish that I could have seen them first hand, but I never did. I have only seen videos of this movement.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by crossthedog on Thursday, June 16, 2022 1:05 PM

crossthedog
As for the front coupler issue, I posted that here a while back and got a lot of good feedback.

Earlier post at: https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/292320.aspx

 

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

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Posted by crossthedog on Thursday, June 16, 2022 12:58 PM

richhotrain
During the steam era, passenger trains were pulled into Dearborn Station at 8th Street in downtown Chicago. After the passenger car consist was uncoupled from the steam engine, the loco would back up to the engine servicing facility at 49th Street. That is 41 city blocks or just over 5 miles. Along the way, the steam engine had to back up over the 26-diamond configuration at 21st Street. Rich

@Rich, that must have been fun to watch.
NorthBrit
Just a technicality CMD. The second film is in Frankfurt, Germany. Steam locomotives running tender first has been a feature on riailways in the U.K since the dawn of railways.
@David, I stand corrected... and... good to know this. I'm warming up to the pulling in reverse idea a lot.
doctorwayne
then all you'd need to do is raise the track across that bridge using some tapered shim-stock,
@Wayne, the drawing is deceptively simplified. Neither the turntable base nor the bridge exist yet--you can see from the photo above that the track and bridge are just laid out loosely over top of the yard -- so there is no need for shimming, if I understand your suggestion. I would simply mount the cassette base at such a level that the rails on the cassette/turntable match the rails on the spur coming over the bridge.

As for the front coupler issue, I posted that here a while back and got a lot of good feedback. For my cast metal Roundhouse Atlantic, it would involve either finding a very small drill and tap (and screw) to hold something over top of a Kadee coupler mounted around the screwpost, OR removing the screw post altogether and widening the hole in the pilot sufficiently to slide a narrow (#262) coupler box in there. Both options scare me so I haven't moved on that yet.
-Matt

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Thursday, June 16, 2022 12:12 PM

crossthedog
I have drawn a quick sketch of the cassette I have in mind:

With a couple of minor tweaks, Matt, your sketched solution should work quite well.

Depending on the thickness of the faux turntable, a piece of 1/4" plywood rotating on a metal pivot (a smooth nail would would likely suffice), then all you'd need to do is raise the track across that bridge using some tapered shim-stock, available from a lumber yard or the usually Lowes/Home Depot sites. 
I have two turntables on my layout: one is scratchbuilt with a cut-up Atlas bridge cemented to a block of wood, and turns (via finger pressure) on the shaft of an electric mixer beater.
The other one is a Walthers kit, and once I add some flexible  metal wipers to the pivot shaft, finger power will move it accordingly, while the wipers will keep it aligned with whichever track is in-use.

As for your issue with working couplers on the front of steamers, I'll take some photos of how I've done mine, as it's actually a pretty simple process.

Wayne

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, June 16, 2022 6:49 AM

crossthedog

Good for you. Yes

Rich

Alton Junction

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