LazersI have just laid an Atlas #536 24" Set-track over a #6 Shinohara (Scale Link) It matches the Outer-radius perfect. The Inner-radius matches Atlas 15" Radius Curve. An 18" is too large.
Meanwhile, I bought a new Walthers #6 from Hiawatha Hobbies. That purports to be 24/20, but there is reason to believe it could actually be 20/18. When it gets here, I'll find out if it's a tight enough curve, and if not, then I may go back to Scale Link.
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
The current Walthers Track turnouts are made from new tooling. There are two easy ways to tell whether a turnout is new tooling - Shinohara is not mentioned on the box, and the new turnouts have one-piece points.
https://www.walthers.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?manufacturer_name=20976&q=curved+turnout
[quote user="crossthedog"]
One thing that's giving me pause... actually two things. Thing 1: The Walthers turnout from Hiawatha is called a #6.5 and has radii 24/20. The one from IMON that Scale Link is selling has the same 24/20 radii but is called a #6.
Thing 2: An OLD Walthers Shinohara I see on ebay has the Walthers product number ending in 827 and boasts 24/18 radii. The new IMON #6 has the same product number ending 827, but is 24/20.
I'm disturbed by these apparent inconsistencies.
"It's the South Shore Line, Jim - but not as we know it".
LastspikemikeCurved turnouts would allow you to increase the length of the purple curve at 10 o'clock in Block #4. That could get you the room you need to maintain the length of your runaround. Curved turnouts do two things: they extend the siding and they alter the approach angle to the siding. They can be very handy and the two sizes currently offered by Walthers are very handy sizes indeed. My guess is you could fit the tighter one to feed the team tracks and the broader radius for your runaround track. Another thought would be to move the team track turnout inside the runaround track. That would shorten the team track sidings a little but extend the runaround length. The sequence of turnouts would be reversed getting you even more room. In that scenario the first (Northerly) turnout would be a broad radius curved turnout creating the runaround track and then the team track curved turnout would immediately follow by connecting to the diverging route. The team tracks would not be shortened, just the approach track to those two sidings.
Curved turnouts do two things: they extend the siding and they alter the approach angle to the siding. They can be very handy and the two sizes currently offered by Walthers are very handy sizes indeed. My guess is you could fit the tighter one to feed the team tracks and the broader radius for your runaround track.
Another thought would be to move the team track turnout inside the runaround track. That would shorten the team track sidings a little but extend the runaround length. The sequence of turnouts would be reversed getting you even more room.
In that scenario the first (Northerly) turnout would be a broad radius curved turnout creating the runaround track and then the team track curved turnout would immediately follow by connecting to the diverging route.
The team tracks would not be shortened, just the approach track to those two sidings.
Thanks for the suggestions and observations. Yes, all of the scenarios you describe are possibilities, and really, the spurs off the branch at the top have always been rather loosely planned, because I had a feeling things might be tight up there by the time my navvies pushed the track that far. Ultimately, the curve that most optimally gets the branch line aimed into the deepest part of the SW corner will determine how long my runaround can be, which will in turn determine how many cars I can take (at least pull) up the branch at one time. That deep straight and the attendant runaround are the spurs I care most about. The team track and others can be shorter or longer, and they can curve a little as long as they have a straight at the end to faciliate switching, even if it only accomodates one car. The plan shown (which is obsolete because the bridges and river moved, as I mentioned earlier) indicates a straight turnout as we come south off the upper bridge, but as you suggest, this will probably have to be a curved turnout, followed immediately by the second one.
Once I get ahold of at least one curved turnout I'll be able to have a better idea of what the line requires. And it will probably be time to finish drawing my as-built and post it here.
crossthedog Doughless IIRC, the radii of the old Walthers Shinohara curved turnouts were different than advertised. The radii were a bit sharper. If yoiu Google serch the topic you'll probably find dicussions about it. Based upon what you are saying, I would guess that the UK shinohara version might have an 18 inch inside radius, and call it a #6. Since Walthers has reintroduced curved turnouts, you would think that they would have not carried over the discrepency into the new line and would have stated accurate radii. That scenario is plausible and would explain a lot, but it would only be the case if IMON failed to correct the mistake in Britain, because they list the inside radius as 20 on their new Shinoharas. -Matt
Doughless IIRC, the radii of the old Walthers Shinohara curved turnouts were different than advertised. The radii were a bit sharper. If yoiu Google serch the topic you'll probably find dicussions about it. Based upon what you are saying, I would guess that the UK shinohara version might have an 18 inch inside radius, and call it a #6. Since Walthers has reintroduced curved turnouts, you would think that they would have not carried over the discrepency into the new line and would have stated accurate radii.
That scenario is plausible and would explain a lot, but it would only be the case if IMON failed to correct the mistake in Britain, because they list the inside radius as 20 on their new Shinoharas.
nvm. I don't know if the Walthers product is new tooling or a buy out of the old Shinohara tooling.
- Douglas
DoughlessIIRC, the radii of the old Walthers Shinohara curved turnouts were different than advertised. The radii were a bit sharper. If yoiu Google serch the topic you'll probably find dicussions about it. Based upon what you are saying, I would guess that the UK shinohara version might have an 18 inch inside radius, and call it a #6. Since Walthers has reintroduced curved turnouts, you would think that they would have not carried over the discrepency into the new line and would have stated accurate radii.
IIRC, the radii of the old Walthers Shinohara curved turnouts were different than advertised. The radii were a bit sharper. If yoiu Google serch the topic you'll probably find dicussions about it.
Based upon what you are saying, I would guess that the UK shinohara version might have an 18 inch inside radius, and call it a #6.
Since Walthers has reintroduced curved turnouts, you would think that they would have not carried over the discrepency into the new line and would have stated accurate radii.
DoughlessHave you checked out the new Walthers 24/20 turnout I posted above as a possible solution?
I am also in talks about shipping costs with Scale Link in Britain, recommended by Paul here (thanks Paul). Scale Link is selling the Shinohara turnouts now being made by IMON. Their #6 has the same radii as the Walthers, so I'm assuming it's the same Shinohara tooling, but I'm considering buying one from Scale Link, too. It would be something over 50 clams by the time I got it on American soil.
crossthedog wjstix Marklin makes some sharp-curve turnouts, their K-line (two rail) curved turnout has an inner radius of 14-1/8". Yikes. That's pretty tight. Thanks for the link. I would consider this for a mine or logging branch. Also it's pretty dear at 53 Euros. Even without shipping that's too hot for me if there are any cheaper options. -Matt
wjstix Marklin makes some sharp-curve turnouts, their K-line (two rail) curved turnout has an inner radius of 14-1/8".
Yikes. That's pretty tight. Thanks for the link. I would consider this for a mine or logging branch. Also it's pretty dear at 53 Euros. Even without shipping that's too hot for me if there are any cheaper options.
Have you checked out the new Walthers 24/20 turnout I posted above as a possible solution?
jjdamnit crossthedog Also it's pretty dear at 53 Euros. Even without shipping that's too hot for me if there are any cheaper options. Remember the adage: "Fast, Cheap and Good" choose two.
Remember the adage: "Fast, Cheap and Good" choose two.
Hello All,
crossthedogAlso it's pretty dear at 53 Euros. Even without shipping that's too hot for me if there are any cheaper options.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
wjstixMarklin makes some sharp-curve turnouts, their K-line (two rail) curved turnout has an inner radius of 14-1/8".
Marklin makes some sharp-curve turnouts, their K-line (two rail) curved turnout has an inner radius of 14-1/8".
https://www.maerklin.de/en/products/details/article/2269/40?tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bbacklink%5D=40&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5BbrandId%5D=1&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bera%5D=&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bfilter%5D=1&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bgaugechoice%5D=2&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bgroupchoice%5D=3&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bnewonly%5D=0&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bpage%5D=2&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bpagesort%5D=artnrasc&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bperpage%5D=18&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bsubgroupchoice%5D=14&cHash=35afde1ac292d084557dfc8667cc25be
jjdamnitAs I posted, you can alter a curved turnout to fit your needs the same way you would create DIY flex track; by selectively cutting the plastic pieces under the rails, between the ties. In essence, creating a "flex track turnout". Granted, the amount of curvature you can alter won't be much. But it might be just enough.
Hi Matt,
The T/O's I have are 85313. I think 85333 are tighter Radii. Since all the Angles appear to be 12 & 9 degree, why they don't quote the Curves as well as, is a bit of a mystery.
Here is a UK link with dimensions + fairly good prices.
https://railsofsheffield.com/collections/tillig?page=1
Hattons Model Railways UK also stock some Tillig and would probably ship to the States.
When I subscribed to the MR Digital Archives, I noted advertisments by Tillig for their Trackwork - from some years ago now, so there could have been a USA Dealer at sometime.
One thing about them, the T/O's Tie-base is very flexible and it is easily possible to tweak them slightly - if you needed to.
Also, looking at their design of the Tie-base, I often feel that another Euro Co. has lifted a few ideas, for their C83 T/O's. Paul
I apologize if my response was confusing.
As I posted, you can alter a curved turnout to fit your needs the same way you would create DIY flex track; by selectively cutting the plastic pieces under the rails, between the ties.
In essence, creating a "flex track turnout".
Granted, the amount of curvature you can alter won't be much. But it might be just enough.
In my situation, this alteration was enough to fit a "stock" curved turnout in a non-stock situation.
A track gauge is a must if you are going to perform alterations to keep the modified turnout(s) in gauge.
crossthedogAll of my track EXCEPT the turnouts is flex track.
My presumption was the track was sectional and not flex. Sorry for the confusion.
Thank you for taking the time to ask for clarification of my confusing response.
LazersHi Matt, Sorry to confuse. 4 No. & 2 No. is my Engineering Draughtsman method of describing the Quantities, i.e. the total number of these Turnouts used on my layout as written on a Parts List. The only Turnouts I will eventually sell will be the Tilligs
Your Tilligs... are they by chance item #85333?
https://www.reynaulds.com/products/Tillig/85333.aspx
I cannot tell what the radius is on these -- the curves are expressed as angels from tangent and I'm rubbish at conversions like that -- but they look as sharp as any I've seen.
crossthedog Hi Paul. I looked at the Shinoharas at the link you posted and those look like they'd do the job nicely, if I could get them across the Atlantic without breaking my piggy bank. Thank you very much. But I don't understand this sentence. Lazers Turnouts #6 Curved are available and I have used 4 No. on my layout. -Matt
Hi Paul. I looked at the Shinoharas at the link you posted and those look like they'd do the job nicely, if I could get them across the Atlantic without breaking my piggy bank. Thank you very much. But I don't understand this sentence.
Turnouts #6 Curved are available and I have used 4 No. on my layout.
Hi Matt, Sorry to confuse. 4 No. & 2 No. is my Engineering Draughtsman method of describing the Quantities, i.e. the total number of these Turnouts used on my layout as written on a Parts List.
The only Turnouts I will eventually sell will be the Tilligs - unless I PX them with a Dealer, sometime.
One useful thing about the Scalelink website, is that it quotes all the Radii of Turnouts.
Regards, Paul
DoughlessDon't want to throw you a loop, but if you're disappointed about how much track can be fitted into the upper level, you could put the coal mine up there. It also just needs one spur off of the branch line really.
On that note, since I reposted a not-quite-current drawing of the layout, you may not be able to see that I took your advice about shifting east at the top. I'm currently working on gridding out another drawing of what has actually been built, as best I can. If I posted that, you'd be able to see the difference.
LazersTurnouts #6 Curved are available and I have used 4 No. on my layout.
jjdamnitAdding short sections of flex track at the tail ends of the turnout might help in your customization.
crossthedog Thanks Rio and DSchmitt. The Peco would be way too wide outside. Doughless I remember discussing this plan with you and offering suggestions. The purple branch was always going to be a tight fit. Just shifting things a few degrees, or being unable to shift them a few degrees, matters. Yes, Douglas, I remember your advice, which I took. I shifted the whole top of the layout to the right by nine inches. so that, for one thing, I could have better access to the northwest corner. You also suggested that I bring the branchline into the middle more, to get a better shot at the town, and I incorporated that idea into my plan. I just think that with the river and bridges shifting south --- act of God, really --- my plan just became unrealistic. I will have a look at the smaller Walters at HH. Thanks for the help. In the end I may have to surrender to certain realities and rethink the whole upper layout. I may not be able to serve as many industries with one job as I had hoped, but that will just make it more fun to run more smaller locals up the branch -- maybe put an RPO with the combine and just one box or tank, and other trains with a few freight cars only. One thing's for certain. In my next life, I will insist on an around-the-walls layout. All these tight curves makes designing for switching operations hard. -Matt
Thanks Rio and DSchmitt. The Peco would be way too wide outside.
Doughless I remember discussing this plan with you and offering suggestions. The purple branch was always going to be a tight fit. Just shifting things a few degrees, or being unable to shift them a few degrees, matters.
Yes, Douglas, I remember your advice, which I took. I shifted the whole top of the layout to the right by nine inches. so that, for one thing, I could have better access to the northwest corner. You also suggested that I bring the branchline into the middle more, to get a better shot at the town, and I incorporated that idea into my plan. I just think that with the river and bridges shifting south --- act of God, really --- my plan just became unrealistic.
I will have a look at the smaller Walters at HH. Thanks for the help. In the end I may have to surrender to certain realities and rethink the whole upper layout. I may not be able to serve as many industries with one job as I had hoped, but that will just make it more fun to run more smaller locals up the branch -- maybe put an RPO with the combine and just one box or tank, and other trains with a few freight cars only.
One thing's for certain. In my next life, I will insist on an around-the-walls layout. All these tight curves makes designing for switching operations hard.
Don't want to throw you a loop, but if you're disappointed about how much track can be fitted into the upper level, you could put the coal mine up there. It also just needs one spur off of the branch line really. You could shove the cars instead of pull them up the grade to the mine and wouldn't even need a run around up there. But it would be better if you could fit that in.
Serving a coal mine with a single spur would cut down the amount of track needed to fit.
Here is a link to 'ScaleLink' in the UK
They list the full range of Shinohara Turnouts in DC & DCC, C100 & C83
https://www.scalelink.co.uk/acatalog/Shinohara_Track___Pointwork__HO__Code_83-p1.html
It is worth noting that Shinohara Track is now being manufactured by 'IMON', albeit I do not know if Turnouts are included as yet.
The Tillig Turnout you reference is compatible with all C83 tracks. They are very good quality and well designed. However the radius used is larger than the Shinohara #6. I have used 2 No. in the past, but now I will be selling them on ebay uk.
I hope this helps, regards, Paul
Unlike prototypical railroads, we modelers are constrained to accept the limitations of pre-fabricated turnouts- -straight and curved.
The exception would be hand-laying turnouts. Which for many is intimidating.
May I suggest a solution that falls in the middle of these two options...
DIY Flex Track
I successfully customized a curved PECO turnout to fit my unique situation.
Adding short sections of flex track at the tail ends of the turnout might help in your customization.
DoughlessI remember discussing this plan with you and offering suggestions. The purple branch was always going to be a tight fit. Just shifting things a few degrees, or being unable to shift them a few degrees, matters.
crossthedog I feel sheepish. I did one more search and found what I was looking for... only it's not made anymore. Walthers 948-827. A 6.5 right turnout. I see they now have 948-83064, which is supposedly 24" and 28" radii. That might be the best that can be done, unless I can find an old 6.5 at a swap meet. Sorry to have kept you all up. -Matt
I feel sheepish. I did one more search and found what I was looking for... only it's not made anymore. Walthers 948-827. A 6.5 right turnout. I see they now have 948-83064, which is supposedly 24" and 28" radii. That might be the best that can be done, unless I can find an old 6.5 at a swap meet. Sorry to have kept you all up.
Here is what is currently being offered by Walthers.
https://www.walthers.com/products/layout/track-and-accessories/turnout
The above link shows Walthers new track line including two versions of curved turnouts: 20/24 and 24/28 radius.
If you need a different curved, you may need to hunt for old stock on eBay or check on HOSwap.
Also consider Peco has what they call a code 83 #7 curved turnout. The inner radius is 36" and the outer 60".
Here is a photo with the Peco #7 at the bottom of the picture.
The curved in the photo below is a Walthers #8 curved - 32 inner/36 outer nominal.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I remember discussing this plan with you and offering suggestions. The purple branch was always going to be a tight fit. Just shifting things a few degrees, or being unable to shift them a few degrees, matters.
Walthers makes a curved turnout with radii of 24/20. Looks like RH turnouts are in stock at Hiawatha Hobbies. A reputable shop that I buy from.
https://www.hiawathahobbies.com/Walthers-Track-HO-Code-83-Nickel-Silver-DCC-Friendly-Curved-Turnout--20-and-24-Radii--Right-Hand-_p_126131.html
crossthedogBut are European track brands compatible with US track brands?
Yes.
Although there may be slight differences in rail which can be accommodated.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.