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Yard Track Spacing and Radius...

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  • Member since
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Posted by cuyama on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 12:19 PM

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One puzzle is how the yard ladder system can yield more siding length in the same space while using the 2"+ track centres.

As others have said, this is a well-established idea. Adding a slight curve to the diverging leg of the first turnout increases the angle a bit, increasing (slightly) the length of the body tracks. One can do this with any turnouts, the ME system just includes the curves as part of the pre-fab turnouts. In the example below, the added curves are in red.

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Posted by 7j43k on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 2:39 PM

cuyama

 

 

Why the change from the Walthers #6 to the "NMRA" #6?

My guess would be that the "NMRA" are shorter, so as to maintain the 2" spacing.

It looks like, very roughly, one picks up 11" more yard capacity with the lower design--a nominal two cars.

 

Ed

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Posted by Doughless on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 3:19 PM

Lastspikemike
It's how you also shorten the whole ladder without also narrowing the track centres closer together.

If you look at real railroads, in tight spaces they try to put the points of the next turnout as close to the closure rail of the previous turnout as possible.

Our model track components can't do that, they need lots of track in between to maintain structure, but ME tries to as much as is feasible by making some of the components as stumpy as possible.

If you could stack the points one after the other, you could have broader radius closure rails (and the same radius beyond the frog) and an upright ladder that doesn't take up a lot of linear inches.  Those are the real goals here, broad radius with little length.

As long as the closure rail radius is broad enough (as well as the embedded radius of the whole shmear including point rails), what the resulting frog number happens to be is tertiary.

- Douglas

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Posted by cuyama on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 3:22 PM

7j43k
Why the change from the Walthers #6 to the "NMRA" #6? My guess would be that the "NMRA" are shorter, so as to maintain the 2" spacing.

I made the graphic a long time ago, so I don't remember why. But you're right, apples-to-apples would have been better – and one would probably need to trim the Walthers to use them with curves as shown with 2" spacing. But since folks (OK, one folk) expressed confusion about how it worked, I just posted what I had on-line already.

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Posted by 7j43k on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 4:49 PM

cuyama

I made the graphic a long time ago, so I don't remember why. But you're right, apples-to-apples would have been better – and one would probably need to trim the Walthers to use them with curves as shown with 2" spacing. 

 

It's a terrific graphic, and I'm glad you posted it.  It does give a very good sense of how it works.

I did a bit of calculating, and came up with shortening the Walthers switch by about 2.1" to keep the 2" spacing.  There's about 3.6" available for removal in the Walthers turnout, so should be no problem.

 

Ed

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 5:22 PM

One of the things I like about Peco turnouts is they are already very short, the likihood of needing to trim them is much lower.  But I've trimmed Atlas and other turnouts as needed to get them to fit.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 5:32 PM

I seem to have missed this, but what's then length, nominal radius, and 'source' of the little pieces of curve inserted to make the trick work?

is there a source for making up a template or gauge to form this curve in flextrack connected to each 'shortened' switch, which might make this simple ? 

 

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Posted by cuyama on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 5:39 PM

Overmod
I seem to have missed this, but what's then length, nominal radius, and 'source' of the little pieces of curve inserted to make the trick work? is there a source for making up a template or gauge to form this curve in flextrack connected to each 'shortened' switch, which might make this simple ? 

In the past I have just made it with flextrack in N scale, it would also work for other scales. I use the minimum radius I have chosen for the yard (which might be different from the rest of layout). How much curve depends on the length and frog number of the turnouts that you choose as well as track spacing of the yard tracks – to me it’s a little bit of trial-and-error.

About 2-3 degrees of curvature added to the diverging leg of the first turnout has often worked well for me in designs for others – and then the corresponding curve on each yard track.

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 5:49 PM

riogrande5761

One of the things I like about Peco turnouts is they are already very short, the likihood of needing to trim them is much lower.  But I've trimmed Atlas and other turnouts as needed to get them to fit. 

That is a distinct advantage of Peco over Atlas for a turnout - - 3". Peco is 9" in length whereas Atlas is 12" in length for a Code 83 #6 turnout. That can be crucial when space is at a premium.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by 7j43k on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 6:29 PM

Overmod

is there a source for making up a template or gauge to form this curve in flextrack connected to each 'shortened' switch, which might make this simple ? 

 

 

 

Comes in an assortment of radii and lengths.

 

Ed

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 6:46 PM

7j43k
Comes in an assortment of radii and lengths.

Ed, those are worthless for the short curves and their transitions that are being described here.  Does the company make a special short 'transition' gauge for these ladders?  They should...
I'm well aware of the theory; I just saw it taught again.  I'm also aware of the theory of the coaxial escapement.  In order to actually build either, it is helpful to have methods and dimensions, not advice to kinda-sorta curve stuff to fit and live with any glitches.

I suspect cuyama could produce a template comparable to the transition spiral in MR that could be printed off, cut in thin sheet or whatever, and used to set this track by track.

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Posted by 7j43k on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 6:55 PM

Overmod

 

 
7j43k
Comes in an assortment of radii and lengths.

 

Ed, those are worthless for the short curves and their transitions that are being described here.  

 

 

And that is because........

 

Ed

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 7:00 PM

7j43k
And that is because........

1) They are too long; 2) they can't be subdivided to shorter segments; 3) they lack any transition from a 'regular' switch into the small curve segment; and 4) they likewise lack any transition from the short curve back to tangent.

A gauge facilitating laying the small curves involved here would have to fulfill all four of these, whereas the ones pictured can't do any.

(If there's anyone who knows where to find a single gauge that does what's needed, I'd expect one of the Eds would be the one to know...)

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Posted by cuyama on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 7:31 PM

Overmod
I suspect cuyama could produce a template comparable to the transition spiral in MR that could be printed off, cut in thin sheet or whatever, and used to set this track by track.

One could do this for one specific combination of turnouts, radius, etc., but it's not something that is one-size-fits-all. 

Of course, if one chooses not to go to the trouble of laying this out with flex, one could forgo the small increase in yard body track length and just use the stock turnout angles.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 7:36 PM

cuyama
One could do this for one specific combination of turnouts, radius, etc., but it's not something that is one-size-fits-all. 

Yes, and the current situation (involving the stock #6s rotated to a steeper angle but preserving a given track spacing) can be used as the example.

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Posted by 7j43k on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 8:20 PM

Overmod

 

 
7j43k
And that is because........

 

1) They are too long;

They are aluminum, and can be cut to length in under a minute.  Filing the edges of the cut smooth might take weeks, of course.

2) they can't be subdivided to shorter segments;

See above.

3) they lack any transition from a 'regular' switch into the small curve segment; and 4) they likewise lack any transition from the short curve back to tangent.

Because these curves are so short, there is no room to have an easement (transition).  In addition, it would be wise to use a fairly wide radius curve, so as to lessen the stress on backing movements through the switches.  And this also lessens both the need for and the possibility to make an easement (transition).

The real problem with putting in these micro segments of curved track is to not have a kink at either end.  To that end, it would be wise to solder a length of flex to the diverging track, and bend it to shape in place.  That should eliminate the kinking possibility.

 

A gauge facilitating laying the small curves involved here would have to fulfill all four of these, whereas the ones pictured can't do any. 

 

Done.

 

Ed

 

 

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