How much time do you have on your hands?.. I mean hours per week...
First thing I would say is that an operational layout basically means benchwork, track and electricity. So to get there, I think people need to plan for a layout that is realistic in size, considering how much time they can dedicate to it. A "Plywood" layout is definitely faster to get up and running than an open grid, but the 8X4 standard is likely to get boring fairly quickly. Again, how much time do you have on your hands??
I think time is pretty elastic myself - when things are enjoyable, I can spend hours and hours without interruption. At work, I came to realize exactly which aspects of the job I did not like - that kinda helped because I would tell myself to just do it and get it over with.
MR paralysis... The number one barrier. there is only one remedy to that: just do it, do your best and fix the problems later. As long as you can reach all sections on your layout (especially the tunnels and areas further than 24''), there is not much that cannot be fixed later. Overbuilt benchwork and bullet-proof trackwork are worth spending the time though, I should say.
Simon
riogrande5761 gregc riogrande5761 What you speak of above is "in an ideal world". common within the club here in NJ. members of the club work on one another's layouts and eventually help operate them. the club puts modelers in contact with one another. Lucky you. Occasionally read about a convergence of good things like that. Then there are the rest of us sods.
gregc riogrande5761 What you speak of above is "in an ideal world". common within the club here in NJ. members of the club work on one another's layouts and eventually help operate them. the club puts modelers in contact with one another.
riogrande5761 What you speak of above is "in an ideal world".
common within the club here in NJ. members of the club work on one another's layouts and eventually help operate them. the club puts modelers in contact with one another.
Lucky you. Occasionally read about a convergence of good things like that. Then there are the rest of us sods.
No clubs or like minded modelers in your area? I'll bet there are.
Sheldon
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL I spent years as the member of a round Robin group, no club, no club layout, just meet at a different person's house each week, work on the layout or run the layout, or just hang out and talk trains. Best "train club" I was ever in. When I started the Dream House layout, I had a round-robin group to help out. Very quickly, the guys driving up from Naples, and the one guy coming down from Port Charlotte stopped showing up. Then before long, it was just me and Randy. As it turned out, Randy and I could build faster than a 6 person group. -Kevin
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I spent years as the member of a round Robin group, no club, no club layout, just meet at a different person's house each week, work on the layout or run the layout, or just hang out and talk trains. Best "train club" I was ever in.
When I started the Dream House layout, I had a round-robin group to help out.
Very quickly, the guys driving up from Naples, and the one guy coming down from Port Charlotte stopped showing up. Then before long, it was just me and Randy.
As it turned out, Randy and I could build faster than a 6 person group.
-Kevin
The following is a rough translation of the Tao of Programming first encountered a long time ago during the Stone Age of DOS :
A Project Manager brought the requirements documents for a computer program to the Master Programmer and asked, "How long will this program take to write?"
The Master Programmer did not look up from his work and replied, "It will take one year."
The Manager asked, "How long will it take if I assign two programmers to the task?"
The Master still did not look up and replied, "Then it will take two years."
"And what if I assign ten programmers?"
The Master looked up and removed his glasses. "Then", the Master sighed, "the program will never be completed."
LINK to SNSR Blog
like all work environments, it's the right set of people. "it's a beautiful thing" when the band plays together.
i know it's about having fun, but i'm always disappointed when things like this become more of a social activity. keeping everyone busy helps.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
The big secret for the group I was in, virtually all the members were/are within a 20 min drive. Yes, we have that many model railroaders who are social in this part of the country. 30 guys total on the email list for that group, 15-20 hard core, always show up.
And many more modelers we know locally who chose not to be in the group. Regionally, many hundreds, just the ones I know, or know of.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI spent years as the member of a round Robin group, no club, no club layout, just meet at a different person's house each week, work on the layout or run the layout, or just hang out and talk trains. Best "train club" I was ever in.
Living the dream.
I spent years as the member of a round Robin group, no club, no club layout, just meet at a different person's house each week, work on the layout or run the layout, or just hang out and talk trains.
Best "train club" I was ever in.
I have thought about this a bit more.
What will make the layout construction go quickly is using a building method you have experience with, sticking to what is tried-and-true, and avoiding distractions.
Ok, switching over to ways to make whatever layout type faster, the first suggestion is soldering all conections and then cutting the gaps. That lets you gap in a more stable position instead ends of switches or relying plastic rail joiners which can shift or crush or just disintergrate (had a few of those). Second would be the ribbonrail templates and straight edges in varius lengths.
riogrande5761 NorthBrit Here in the U.K. we have a saying 'A layout is never finished'. David I wonder if they got that from here across the pond? I've been reading that saying since I was a teen in Model Railroader magazine, but suspect it goes a lot farther back the the 1970's.
NorthBrit Here in the U.K. we have a saying 'A layout is never finished'. David
Here in the U.K. we have a saying 'A layout is never finished'.
David
I wonder if they got that from here across the pond? I've been reading that saying since I was a teen in Model Railroader magazine, but suspect it goes a lot farther back the the 1970's.
I don't know how old the saying is or where it started, but I have heard it said all my life and read it in books of layouts built in the 1930s/40s.
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
gregc what would a "professional" layout builder/bulders do besides working full time? i assume he/they would have the right skills for the job there were 6 of us at the last work session one person installing turnout throws one electrician installing ceiling lamps one person soldering 8 conductor cable onto switch machines two EEs testing staging tracks and debugging custom block detectors and the owner mounting switch machines under the layout obviously a varied skill set. often you don't need to be an expert to help. let the expert do the tricky stuff but i think working in pairs can be very productive. don't have to work together all the time, just when needed i've been told that home construction crews will often help one another (recipricate) out when lifting (tilting) walls in place because a lot of hands are needed. sometimes having someone under the layout and one on top can make a big difference. one at the track, another at a panel. it avoids the person crawling out and moving between locations. of course this requires planning and coordination.
what would a "professional" layout builder/bulders do besides working full time? i assume he/they would have the right skills for the job
there were 6 of us at the last work session
obviously a varied skill set. often you don't need to be an expert to help. let the expert do the tricky stuff
but i think working in pairs can be very productive. don't have to work together all the time, just when needed
i've been told that home construction crews will often help one another (recipricate) out when lifting (tilting) walls in place because a lot of hands are needed.
sometimes having someone under the layout and one on top can make a big difference. one at the track, another at a panel. it avoids the person crawling out and moving between locations.
of course this requires planning and coordination.
Yes, you have a good understanding there of the crew idea. The more the same to people work together, the faster and better they become as a team.
I have been working with the same two guys doing carpentry for 15 years, we know without hardly talking what the other is doing next, like a well oiled machine.
riogrande5761What you speak of above is "in an ideal world".
gregc what would a "professional" layout builder/bulders do besides working full time? i assume he/they would have the right skills for the job
But you are addressing an audience who are not are not full-time professional layout builders. Many of us have full-time jobs and home/family obligations. Some may be retired but often report they are busier than every with home/family obligations.
there were 6 of us at the last work session one person installing turnout throws one electrician installing ceiling lamps one person soldering 8 conductor cable onto switch machines two EEs testing staging tracks and debugging custom block detectors and the owner mounting switch machines under the layout obviously a varied skill set. often you don't need to be an expert to help. let the expert do the tricky stuff but i think working in pairs can be very productive. don't have to work together all the time, just when needed i've been told that home construction crews will often help one another (recipricate) out when lifting (tilting) walls in place because a lot of hands are needed. sometimes having someone under the layout and one on top can make a big difference. one at the track, another at a panel. it avoids the person crawling out and moving between locations. of course this requires planning and coordination.
What you speak of above is "in an ideal world". A few people with connections and skilled volunteer friends may be able to organize what you mention above, but you are asking us regular folks. Do you want a fair answer or one that is idealized? Yes, a layout can be built quickly ... but ...
Greg. I can only assume you are referring to the club layout? Of which I know about because of our private conversations.
Why the mystery in your question? Why not explain to the others what/where you are talking about?
Personally, it bothers me when people "beat around the bush" rather than ask the question directly and provide all the facts. Somehow thinking they can control how others will think about the question?
One other thought, in the past when you and I have discussed control wiring solutions you tend to look at each problem in terms of the simplest solution for that exact situation. And many times that is fine.
But I would suggest that on a club layout where multiple people will ultimately be doing installs and trouble shooting, that my approach of developing standard systems adaptable to all situations (like turnout control) would have considerable advantage both in installation and later maintenance.
Here in the U.K. we have a saying 'A layout is never finished'. There is always something that needs doing or updating as we learn more skills.
gregc what tasks take the most time and what can be done to minimize that time? - benchwork - laying track - installing electronics - building panels - wiring maybe a better question to ask is what to avoid doing?
what tasks take the most time and what can be done to minimize that time?
maybe a better question to ask is what to avoid doing?
To begin with, I am not sure what you mean by, what to avoid doing? You certainly need to build benchwork, lay track, and install wiring. You could skip, or at least delay, installing electronics and building panels.
When you consider tasks such as building benchwork, laying track, and installing wiring, each task takes considerable time, effort and skill.
Building benchwork involves carpentry skills, not only sawing and screwing and nailing, but also leveling, plumbing, and stabilizing.
Laying track involves gemotry skills to correctly level straight sections, easement supported curves and the avoidance of humps and valleys and kinks. Both rails must match in gauge and height even where curves are superelevated. Turnouts must be embedded flawlessly into the rest of the track work.
Installing wiring involves electrician's skills and soldering skills. The wiring must be done in such a manner as to avoid voltage drops, shorts, obstacles to running wheel over track, etc. There must be adequate connectivity and continuity. The use of meters is critical.
I would suggest that each of the above tasks takes an equal amount of time and is commensurate with the size and complexity of the layout.
Installing electronics and building panels should take less time than the other three tasks. The amount of time and effort will depend upon the level of spohistication required for automation. Signaling systems will be an important part of the electronics installation task.
Another task that needs to be considering is landscaping. The enormity of this task will depend upon the nature of the landscape plan - - ground cover, mountainous or desert terrain, waterways, trees and woods and forests. I would include ballasting as an element of landscaping. In my experience, lanscaping takes just as long as building benchwork, installing trackwork and installing wiring.
Let's not forget structures. In my personal experience, this was another major task, scratch building 13 large freight houses, a vertical lift bridge, and kit building a number of other structures and bridges. Structures can take as long as building benchwork, installing trackwork, installing wiring, and landscaping.
Rich
Alton Junction
Best crew size in most cases is two people.
Crews can be paired for larger tasks like benchwork.
If planning is good, and changes can be resisted, wiring and panels can be prepared in advance busy separate teams.
It would still be helpful to have a better idea of size, scope and concept.
In general, I'd agree with Mr. Beasely. You need time to build a layout more quickly. With many things interupting me for months on end, it has a delitarious effect on progress. I don't have any helpers either. If I were a social butterfly like my next door HOA president neighbor ... it might be different. He could sell you almost anything.
What makes any of those tasks take longer is lack of experience or unfamiliarity. I can build benchwork or lay track without tons of time because I've done it before. Something like scenery, which I have less experience takes longer as it takes time to learn and experiment.
rrebell ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrebell The fastest way to build a layout is a simple frame (I used 1x4's), top with foam caulked down, then layout the centerlines of the track, next put in any inclines, Woodland Scenics are the fastest and can be caulked in place, caulk on the cork and then caulk on the track with regular rail joiners everywhere and the after feeds are done go back and dremel the gaps needed. Of course there are more things to do but the stuff I mentioned can be done on an 11x13' layout in 40 hours or less. Nothing wrong with that method of construction, but it assumes a lot of facts not in evidence. Sheldon Don't understand but basic benchwork for a 2'x4' module including legs is less than an hour not including dry time. I mean we are talking basic boxes here and I use construction screws and any lateral movement is taken care of by the foam board top.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrebell The fastest way to build a layout is a simple frame (I used 1x4's), top with foam caulked down, then layout the centerlines of the track, next put in any inclines, Woodland Scenics are the fastest and can be caulked in place, caulk on the cork and then caulk on the track with regular rail joiners everywhere and the after feeds are done go back and dremel the gaps needed. Of course there are more things to do but the stuff I mentioned can be done on an 11x13' layout in 40 hours or less. Nothing wrong with that method of construction, but it assumes a lot of facts not in evidence. Sheldon
rrebell The fastest way to build a layout is a simple frame (I used 1x4's), top with foam caulked down, then layout the centerlines of the track, next put in any inclines, Woodland Scenics are the fastest and can be caulked in place, caulk on the cork and then caulk on the track with regular rail joiners everywhere and the after feeds are done go back and dremel the gaps needed. Of course there are more things to do but the stuff I mentioned can be done on an 11x13' layout in 40 hours or less.
The fastest way to build a layout is a simple frame (I used 1x4's), top with foam caulked down, then layout the centerlines of the track, next put in any inclines, Woodland Scenics are the fastest and can be caulked in place, caulk on the cork and then caulk on the track with regular rail joiners everywhere and the after feeds are done go back and dremel the gaps needed. Of course there are more things to do but the stuff I mentioned can be done on an 11x13' layout in 40 hours or less.
Nothing wrong with that method of construction, but it assumes a lot of facts not in evidence.
Don't understand but basic benchwork for a 2'x4' module including legs is less than an hour not including dry time. I mean we are talking basic boxes here and I use construction screws and any lateral movement is taken care of by the foam board top.
Your method assumes that benchwork will be shallow front to back, like you said, 2'.
It assumes minimal complex grades and/or no hidden track right below visable track.
It assumes foam is an acceptable base. Woodland Scenics inclines, I don't think so, my MAX grade is 2% and the grades flow constantly up and down like real life.
How do you mount under the table switch machines once you have track on 8" of stacked up foam? I know, you likely use manual turnouts, but not everybody does.
My new layout will have track at elevation 0" and elevation 11". I need direct access under the track for mainline switch machines. And there will be hidden track under those tracks at elevation 11.
While I understand many people like foam, and it works well in many cases, it is not an acceptable base for a layout like mine. I need benchwork to support my weight and to have direct under track access.
Most scenes on my layout will be 3' to 4' deep, many with lift outs for access. In one spot there will be a city behind the trackwork which includes a big yard, and the deepest part of that scene will be 8' deep and again the rear city scenery will lift out.
Those lift outs may get built on foam, but that is likely the only foam you will find on my layout. I will not place track on foam.
So, until you know what kind of layout, what size layout, and the requirements for access and features, suggesting a specific construction method is likely not going to be effective.
Nothing you suggested would work on my new layout. So I will build open grid benchwork with plywood on risers only where track and and flat scenery are, the rest will be hard shell scenery which allows constantly flowing ground contour and direct access from underneath.
Yes, there are few spots on my layout where a simple tabletop construction will work - a freight yard, and one or two other scenes. But my layout is set in the Appalachian Mountains, not the flat mid west, nothing is flat here where we live, even right along the west shore of the Chesapeake bay. No point in a table top, foam or plywood.
Hello All,
The phrase that comes to mind is...
"Define the word 'Definition'!"
Or...
A layout is...
The scenic oval under the Christmas tree or Miniatur Wunderland?
Your question is ambiguous at best.
I put a 5/8-inch sheet of MDFB on the bed in the spare room, put down an oval of track and my "layout" was "complete"- -to my satisfaction.
I was running trains!
That was in 2014 and all I've "accomplished"...by your definition...is nothing.
Initially, I wired for DC with 16 blocks, over 20 DC controlled turnouts, and a curved 3% grade for the unloading of Tyco 34-foot operating hoppers.
No scenery, other than ballasting the "final" track in place.
Then I realized that the grade needed an easement.
Reworked the track plan, ripped up the ballasted track, modified a curved turnout, and reconfigured the siding to the grade.
Then added a yard that serves the power plant.
The famous quote is, "It's not the destination it's the journey."
If you are seeking expedience over experience- -hire a model building company.
Otherwise, enjoy the "journey".
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Well, building a layout quickly just takes a lot of time.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
mthobbiesNo tinkering.
The operative word(s)
Tinkering is what makes it a hobby. If I really flew at it I know I could get more done than even I think I could imagine. I am and always have been deadpan cool under pressure and easily respond to it. If I am not under pressure I move at whatever pace I feel like moving at on that day, isn't that what retirement is all about?
Life is about the journey, not the destination. If I ever thought I had finished a layout, I would probably start over.
I think if you were to really fly at it, a lot could be accomplished in short order.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
In February, 2018, I began the demolition of my beloved but flawed layout and started constructing a new layout with a similar footprint to the old. It measures 45' x 25' and is P-shaped.
Took me three years to complete construction of the framework, laying of track, wiring, and testing. During that time, I scratch built 13 large freight houses and a double track vertical lift bridge. I "landscaped" (mostly ground cover) and ballasted a double track mainline.
I built a 10-track downtown train station, a coach yard, a freight yard and an engine servicing facility consisting of a coaling tower, 130' turntable, 9-stall roundhouse, and two back shops. I finished in February 2021, and I have now taken the summer off.
In the Fall, I will complete the landscaping and pronounce the layout "finished".
So, it will have taken 3 1/2 years.
gregci wonder what the 3 or 4 most important things are, as well as things to avoid doing
I had the Dreasm House N scale layout up and running in a year from scratch.
That was not fully scenicked, and lots of turnouts went nowhere, but all the mainline was done, and a basic layer of scenery covered 1/2 the layout.
I did almost all of it alone. Building a layout is not hard, just work on it every day.