Lastspikemike Well, since I don't even know what accuracy in laying rails means, much less why it could possibly be important, that may explain why I find making the final connection in a loop of track to be far easier within a curve than between two straights. I don't even draw out the track alignment on the benchwork. I just lay the track from where I start until I get to the other end, then join the loop. Only the turnout locations need to be super accurate for reasons unrelated to drawing a plan. The prototypes were built that way, in the very beginning when the as-built location of railway determined the ROW. The gap between the ends of the rails should be very small, less than 1.0 mm if feasible. If you cut the straights you're going to have a larger gap than you need to.
Well, since I don't even know what accuracy in laying rails means, much less why it could possibly be important, that may explain why I find making the final connection in a loop of track to be far easier within a curve than between two straights. I don't even draw out the track alignment on the benchwork. I just lay the track from where I start until I get to the other end, then join the loop. Only the turnout locations need to be super accurate for reasons unrelated to drawing a plan. The prototypes were built that way, in the very beginning when the as-built location of railway determined the ROW.
The gap between the ends of the rails should be very small, less than 1.0 mm if feasible. If you cut the straights you're going to have a larger gap than you need to.
When I do this operation, I typically leave a combined gap (both ends of the rail) of .02" (1/2 mm). I use a scale in fiftieths of an inch, which makes it easy to measure to the hundredths.
As you can imagine, having a small gap makes it a bit easier to install, plus I'm a fan of expansion gaps in rails.
If you cut the curves you will have no gap. Of course, what I really mean is you leave the curve loose, not nailed or glued down, when you close the final gap. For me, the alignment of the straights needs to be accurate. I prefer minor alignment adjustments to be hidden within the curves. Since I cut to fit with high accuracy the effect on curve alignment is invisible. That's not so if the straight is cut incorrectiy. If you can use a measuring device and then cut straights to within plus or minus 0.5 mm for both rails rather than simply offering up the rail to be cut and marking it exactly where the cut needs to be......well that explains why you might find straight joints easier, for you.
If you cut the curves you will have no gap. Of course, what I really mean is you leave the curve loose, not nailed or glued down, when you close the final gap. For me, the alignment of the straights needs to be accurate. I prefer minor alignment adjustments to be hidden within the curves. Since I cut to fit with high accuracy the effect on curve alignment is invisible. That's not so if the straight is cut incorrectiy.
If you can use a measuring device and then cut straights to within plus or minus 0.5 mm for both rails rather than simply offering up the rail to be cut and marking it exactly where the cut needs to be......well that explains why you might find straight joints easier, for you.
Well, there you have it. I have such a device:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00027959S/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
What do you do if the final joint you make happens to be inside a curve? Or you have no tangent track at all?
I suck it up and deal with the problem. My approach is a general case. If it arises that it isn't appropriate, I do it differently.
If I HAD to make a joint in a curve, I would do it. HOWEVER, I strongly prefer not to, as I like to pre-solder those joints before laying track. I then install a "single" piece of track through the curve. This lessens the chance of a kink in the curve.
If I had no tangent track at all, I would have a very unusual layout. Perhaps YOU have such a layout. If it would a big circle (or a small one), I would do the final joint in a curve. Obviously. If it were a more complex layout with no tangent track, I would have reverse curves. If I accepted that as my reality, I would make the final joint in one of those reverse curves.
Ed
The soldering looks fine to me. I've still not mastered soldering well, but ensuring you have a clean area is essential. Also critical is using a file to remove excess solder. Someone mentioned about a file set. You can get a cheap one from Harbor Freight. It comes in a case and has various types (ohh, ahh!).
Hi Matt,
I'd say that you have mastered the technique! Well done!
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I've done about half the mainline loop now. I started at one turnout and soldered two tracks to it for the wall-side curve. With some experimentation I've learned that for me, the best method is to use lots of flux into and around the rail joiner on both inside and outside, then heat the inside of the rail joiner until the flux everywhere sizzles and liquifies and goes clear. This happens fast because I heat the iron up hot. As soon as I get the sizzle, I touch solder to the OUTside of the rail right above the joiner. The solder instantly flows throughout. I quickly drag the solder along the joiner to cover it all. If I do it quickly enough the ties don't melt. Heating the inside of the rail or joiner draws the solder through to the inside but doesn't create a big burl of solder in there. One or two of you suggested that this was the actual correct method, according to the science of how solder moves. I have found it works pretty well if I remember two things: Hot. Quick.
I've also found that in situations where I start at a turnout (i.e. all of my situations) it doesn't work to solder more than two flex track lengths together at a time while straight. If I do, then when I bend them around the curve, the joint on the loose inside rail travels forward away from the joint on the outside rail, which requires cutting off more ties so the track will bend, and the distance is compounded with each added length of flex track. It does this because both rail ends are fixed to the turnout rails at the starting end, so the differential (as it were) can only move in one direction. Maybe this doesn't happen for some of you guys with gentler curves (that sounded weird, but you know what I mean). I wasn't anticipating this, and I don't like the long gap in the ties because I'm worried the rails will not be perfectly gauged apart at that spot. I'm going to have to redo one joint because of this. But it's okay, I'm getting comfortable with the iron.
But for this reason, I'm now soldering the curve joints in place. It works fine, no more difficult than doing it in long straight sections. In fact easier, because if one track is in position already on the curve, you can see exactly how much extra rail is on the inside. Then you can cut it to match the other rail. Solder the next piece on while it's straight, and curve it after it cools. (Side bennie: Joint stays put.) Nail that new track about half way along, pin the rest to hold it in the curve, then address the next joint the same way. "Easy peasy lemon squeezy", as my daughters used to say.
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
richhotrain 7j43k In my experience, it's much better to lay the switches first, the curves next, and fill in finally with straight. More power to those who can lay track in that sequence. When I start a "curve", and I am speaking of at least a 90 degree curve (a quarter circle, if you will), I begin one end of the curve by connecting it to the last section of straight track previously laid. Then, I form the curve, including easements, and then I connect the completed curve to the first section of straight track adjacent to the end of the curve. If that first section of straight track adjacent to the end of the curve is a turnout, I obviously know at that point exactly where to place it. How could I know that beforehand? Rich
7j43k
In my experience, it's much better to lay the switches first, the curves next, and fill in finally with straight.
More power to those who can lay track in that sequence.
When I start a "curve", and I am speaking of at least a 90 degree curve (a quarter circle, if you will), I begin one end of the curve by connecting it to the last section of straight track previously laid.
Then, I form the curve, including easements, and then I connect the completed curve to the first section of straight track adjacent to the end of the curve.
If that first section of straight track adjacent to the end of the curve is a turnout, I obviously know at that point exactly where to place it. How could I know that beforehand?
Rich
On my layout, I did all of the curves first, soldering together as many lengths of track as were needed for each curve, then formed them to match the pencilled centreline - some were 90º or less and some were over 180º. As each came near to where it would connect with a turnout or with straight track, I let it form its own easements, from the curve into straight track, cutting it off where it seemed most suitable.I usually also solder with the iron inside the gauge, rather than outside. If I were using a larger soldering iron, though (I have ones from 25watts up to one that's 200watt), I used it on top of the rail - it heats the rail very quickly and draws the solder into the joiner on both sidesThe only unsoldered joiners are at the ends of my bridges, all of which are removeable. If the unsoldered joiners fail to conduct power, I have wire drops on both ends of all bridge rails and on the connecting rails, and all that's needed is to clip them together (beneath the layout), leaving the bridges still removeable.
I never worried about whether the moveable rail (Atlas code 83 flex) was on the inside or the outside of the curves...simply cut it where needed and carried on.
I've melted lots of ties in my time, too, but it's easy to make replacements: since my layout is around the room, the far side of the rails is generally unseen (although I do take some photos with the camera on-layout, and facing the aisle).
I simply trim the overhanging head of the plastic spikes that will be on that unseen side of the track, then use a triangular needle file to create a groove where the rail joiners will be seated.I then use a small screwdriver or putty knife to lift the soldered-together track, and then slide the altered tie(s) into place - no bump at the rail joints, and not much notice of the rail joiners once the ties are in place and the rails have been painted.
I think that most of us have our own methods, developed over time and through experience, but it's also useful to read what others do, as there may be a step that could be added or another that could be skipped.
I don't have a great deal more track to be laid, as most of it will be for industries on the upper portion of the layout...perhaps a fair amount of it will be street running.
Wayne
Lastspikemike The difference comes when you slide the rail ends into the joiners. Then making the last joint inside a curve is way easier thsn trying to "drop in" a straight of exactly the length of the gap.
The difference comes when you slide the rail ends into the joiners. Then making the last joint inside a curve is way easier thsn trying to "drop in" a straight of exactly the length of the gap.
Well, Mike, it WOULD be if you have the rails cut to exactly the right length. That's kinda difficult on a curve for some of us. If you're joining two straights, they're already laid. Just measure the gap, and cut the track. Once. No checking to see if it's right. You MEASURED it.
Straight tracks do not just drop in. The joiners always make the piece of track longer than the available space. Sure you can slide the joiners all the way onto one rail but I fail to see how that's easier than just sliding the curved tracks together.
Oh, it ISN'T. What is easier is that you can get an accurate cut length between two straights that are already installed. Can you do that in a curve?
And, Mike, you are correct that you have to slide the joiners out of the way to fit the track. Is that scary? Or really difficult? Be reminded that you're going to have to add some filler ties around the joint anyway, so there should be no ties obstructing the "slide".
Heck it's even easier to join a curve to the end of a straight as your last joint. If you can get both ends inside a curve then the last piece of track to be joined up pretty much does "drop in".
Yes, Mike. If you enjoy fitting the curve together several times so that you get the final cut right, it's even fun. Or, if accuracy in trackwork just isn't your style, you can do it just once and move on to other fun things.
Funny how I misread 7j43k's post.
My technique: Start at a fixed point like a turnout, build through to the next fixed point, ideally having the last piece laid being straight. Avoid trying to make the final connection in a curve.
Mike
7j43k In my experience, it's much better to lay the switches first, the curves next, and fill in finally with straight.
Alton Junction
7j43k In my experience, it's much better to lay the switches first, the curves next, and fill in finally with straight. It is VERY easy to fit afinal straight "fitter" piece--you just cut it so that each rail is the same length as the two gaps you need to fill. NO guessing. Just cut it and drop it in. If you're working in the curve, you're going to have to fiddle around to get your lengths right, and keep doing test fitting until you (hopefully) do. Install your switches. Build your curves. Connect them all with straight, and drop in the last "filler" pieces. Ed
It is VERY easy to fit afinal straight "fitter" piece--you just cut it so that each rail is the same length as the two gaps you need to fill. NO guessing. Just cut it and drop it in.
If you're working in the curve, you're going to have to fiddle around to get your lengths right, and keep doing test fitting until you (hopefully) do.
Install your switches. Build your curves. Connect them all with straight, and drop in the last "filler" pieces.
wp8thsub It's interesting to see how many avoid soldering on the gauge side of the rail. I do it all the time, and there's never a concern with excess solder buildup. If you use the right amount of solder, and heat the joint properly, this just isn't a problem.
It's interesting to see how many avoid soldering on the gauge side of the rail. I do it all the time, and there's never a concern with excess solder buildup. If you use the right amount of solder, and heat the joint properly, this just isn't a problem.
richhotrain Doughless For the track that faces the benchwork edge, I solder on the inside of the rail. Say what? You are a brave man, Douglas. I would never solder on the inside of the rail.
Doughless For the track that faces the benchwork edge, I solder on the inside of the rail.
For the track that faces the benchwork edge, I solder on the inside of the rail.
Say what? You are a brave man, Douglas. I would never solder on the inside of the rail.
I place the iron where it's easiest to reach. Since I like to heat one side of the rail while applying solder to the opposite side, it's easier for me to hold the iron on the back side of the rail. About half the solder joints on my trackwork were probably done with the iron on the inside of the rail.
Rob Spangler
Overmod Wayne, post the one about how to identify fake foreign flux.
Wayne, post the one about how to identify fake foreign flux.
Ah, the turboencabulator (please note that it's one word, despite what you might read 'elsewhere').
As happens, I was briefed on the pre-Quick version of the thing; it is of course difficult to know for sure where the doubletalk name came from but it's difficult to imagine it spontaneously evolved at the same time on both sides of the Atlantic. The Chrysler parody and its sequels both apt and inapt have further expanded and polished Quick's 'canon' -- although I still don't understand how the obvious misspelling of 'wainshaft' has never been corrected -- but the original was a Naval project involving a critical aspect of battle communications.
In the old days of radio, so-called 'static' was a problem with clear reception. A team at ONR determined that this was due to 'bad electrons' and that if some way to filter these out of RF current could be devised, the problem could be reduced or eliminated. The result was the original turboencabulator, which used resonant... i don't remember the correct doubletalk word... to separate the bad electrons and charge a large capacitor with them; this would then be disconnected and fired out of one of the ship's eight-inch guns, allowing clear radio communication.
Of course, the bad electrons would discharge upon contact with ocean water, and find their way back to the metallic hull. But this, ONR pointed out, was a function of the drift speed of bad electrons, much slower than near-lightspeed, so there would indeed be a clear period where the method would work.
Apparently this was officially sanctioned as a test to see how many levels of Naval oversight this would pass through before someone threw it down on his desk and, after he stopped laughing, put the kibosh on it. I heard it got a surprisingly long way... although some of that was probably an understanding of the in-joke involved.
Very funny, gentelmen. ("A wise guy, eh?")
I went looking for GERN flux online but I kept running into websites trying to sell me a turbo encabulator.
I've always loved inside jokes.
Thanks Wayne, for cleaning up my potential mess.
- Douglas
BigDaddyGERN Flux Big Smile is an imaginary product invented by our own DrWayne, with a following of religious proportions and will be of no use at all for your purposes.
Actually, GERN is my brother's creation, and while it has nothing to do with soldering, GERN-brand flux makes everything at least 3% better.
If the image is too small to read, simply click on it for an enlarged version.
crossthedogDouglas, what is GERN flux and why do you like it?
GERN Flux is an imaginary product invented by our own DrWayne, with a following of religious proportions and will be of no use at all for your purposes.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
crossthedog At the end of the day, though, there will be joints in curves. I'm taking the advice to solder together several flex-track lengths to reach from one fixed point to the next, and only cut down one piece.
At the end of the day, though, there will be joints in curves. I'm taking the advice to solder together several flex-track lengths to reach from one fixed point to the next, and only cut down one piece.
Guys, thanks so much for all this. Good to know I haven't completely flubbed the job, and there's lots of good sound counsel here. I feel a lot less intimidated having done one joint.
LastspikemikeSo, you cut and lay the final pieces of flex track to the required length to connect up your turnouts already in place. Your final joints will also be easier to fit if they are within a curve.
Mike, I think you mean exactly the opposite, right? That the final joints will be easier if they are NOT within a curve, or? At the end of the day, though, there will be joints in curves. I'm taking the advice to solder together several flex-track lengths to reach from one fixed point to the next, and only cut down one piece.
DoughlessGERN flux
Douglas, what is GERN flux and why do you like it? I have two tins of rosin flux already, one of Kester 135 Rosin Core that I ordered online and another of Weller rosin core that came with the soldering iron cleaning and tinning kit. I was originally hoping to get liquid no-clean, but I find that the paste is very nice in that it starts to sizzle and go opaque when it gets hot enough to solder. I like tools that talk to me.
LastspikemikeThe number one mistake in soldering is using too much solder. That's what causes the bumps and lumps you need to grind off with a fine needle flat file or a Peco track cleaning block. The soldering iron isn't used to apply the solder, it heats the joint so the solder melts when applied to the joint. If you avoid touching the soldering iron with the solder
Ditto. And slide the tip over the joiner back and forth to smooth out the work. If the solder sticks to the tip as you raise it, there is way too much solder on the joint.
And the proper way to do it, would be to heat the opposite side of the rail from where you apply the solder, to draw the solder through the joint.
But I've found that heats up the rail very hot and it tends to melt the ties that are even half an inch away.
Its not a plumbing joint where we need to avoid voids and leaks. We're just securing some rail joiners.
richhotrain Doughless For the track that faces the benchwork edge, I solder on the inside of the rail. Say what? You are a brave man, Douglas. I would never solder on the inside of the rail. Rich
Yes, I've always soldered on the side of both rails that face the backdrop. Done probably over 100 joints over the years.
If you use enough flux and not too much solder, the solder flows into the cracks and doesn't leave any blobs. Make the rail nice and hot before applying the solder to the (GERN) fluxed joint.
BTW, if you use GERN Flux, it will be a solid joint!
Me too!
That is: I agree that your solder joints are good. You want a nice smooth good-looking flow.
But let's talk about ties:
You might heat damage a tie. This is NOT a problem. Cut it off with your rail nippers.
Whatever you do, you'll likely have a tie-less section. One option is to insert single replacement ties underneath. You'll probably have to clip off the "spikes", but you might get lucky and snap them on.
For the rail joint section, you do NOT want to do this, as it will raise the rail at this point, since there's the additional thickness of the rail joiner. You might file those replacement ties thinner, but I cut my ties into pieces, removing the section at the rail joint. Then I just drop them down from above. You can't see under the rail joiner, so the missing section isn't a problem.
The big thing is to not have a bump caused by you replacing the missing ties.
You want to make it pretty, just get the iron up to temp and swipe it over all offending soulder. I tend to end a joint by running the iron over the head real quick to smooth out any stray soulder and thin it out if it exists, make any touchup filing effortless. Even major messups can be fixed, once had a joint on a curve that was done after it was laid as the whole curve setup was too long to do in one piece, it looked like it was kinked but it wasn't as I filled in and filed the offending kink and filed away the kink on the other side, a lot of work but it ran perfectly but would find another way if I had that situation again but a good example of you can fix it.
riogrande5761 richhotrain Doughless For the track that faces the benchwork edge, I solder on the inside of the rail. Say what? You are a brave man, Douglas. I would never solder on the inside of the rail. Rich Same here. I'd rather not risk any solder interfering with the flanges. You can solder on the out side of both rails and it will be fine. As long as there isn't a ton of solder, after you paint the track, it shouldn't be a detraction from the appearance.
Same here. I'd rather not risk any solder interfering with the flanges. You can solder on the out side of both rails and it will be fine. As long as there isn't a ton of solder, after you paint the track, it shouldn't be a detraction from the appearance.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
As others have said, everything looks fine. Ugly soldering joints are okay of they are on the outside and facing the backdrop. You wont see them.
For the track that faces the benchwork edge, I solder on the inside of the rail. I would not want to get a lot of solder in the joint where a wheel might hit it.
Always placing the tip on the inside or outside of the rail, never on top.
If you get too much solder in the joint where you don't like the appearance, I shmear flux over the blob and the bare side of the rail. Applying heat to the solder with the flux tends to melt and thin the solder so it flows throughout the joint.
For really heavy or unsightly solder blobs, you can heat up the solder the same way and wipe off with a wet paper towel. The towel needs to be quick, almost touching the iron tip as you remove the iron and follow quickly with the wet towel.