richhotrainI have to say, I have never heard of tinning the rails. I always understood that you just should tin the soldering iron tip before attempting any type of soldering task.
Same.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 - Do you solder the rails without first tinning? Pretty much always, unless I'm recycling track that was soldered before. - How do you get a joiner onto a tinned rail? If there is only a thin coating, you may be able to slide it on still; if there is too much, you may have to heat the rail up first. If I did that I'd put a heat sink on it to draw off the heat to avoid melting ties.
- Do you solder the rails without first tinning?
Pretty much always, unless I'm recycling track that was soldered before.
- How do you get a joiner onto a tinned rail?
If there is only a thin coating, you may be able to slide it on still; if there is too much, you may have to heat the rail up first. If I did that I'd put a heat sink on it to draw off the heat to avoid melting ties.
That said, I do tin the ends of feeder wires or wiring from signals.
Rich
Alton Junction
hon30critterDon't buy the X-Tronic iron or the Weller iron. They are both crap! Pardon my English but I speak from experience. I have owned both, and thrown both in the garbage.
wp8thsubI do all my track soldering with a cheap-o Weller iron I picked up at the home center. Considering this option has worked for me for around 40 years
As Rob has noted, the inexpensive Weller iron is fine and not crap. I bought one about 6 years ago and it's worked just fine. Looks like experience varies.
LastspikemikeI'd always understood you get the best conductivity and adhesion from soldered joints If you tinned both surfaces first. Do you solder the rails without first tinning? How do you get a joiner onto a tinned rail?
This is why the Lord invented good no-clean flux. It makes it just as easy to get two adjacent surfaces to 'wet' with solder as two surfaces alone before assembling them for fusion.
With wires, we pre-tin to ensure full coverage and to get enough in the joint to fill between strands and overcome any issues with clean metal when high heat can still be applied to the components. There is no particular need to do this on a rail joint, where gravity assists the feed; a good liquid flux excludes air and readies the surface, and adding the solder as 'chips' just above the junction of the top 'curl' of the joiner and the rails gets it to melt and be drawn into the joint nearly as quickly and effectively as 'tinning' could do, and better than if melting off the end of a wire or stick of solder stock.
It would be difficult to tin a joiner effectively and still have it work as desired. It would be difficult to tin rails and then get the joiner to 'spring' enough to go over the solder. Technically with resistance or laser soldering you could arrange to get the joiner on one 'pretinned' rail which was hot enough to have the solder at liquidus, then heat the other pretinned rail the same way to make the joint, but this is an awful lot of expense, burn risk, etc. to get the same joint integrity as a bit of no-clean.
Tinning your feeder wires remains a wise approach.
Lastspikemike My soldering station has a water well and a sponge for cleaning the tip. Someone drilled a nice set of holes in the sponge which is convenient for cleaning off excess solder and flux with a dip and twist. I'd always understood you get the best conductivity and adhesion from soldered joints If you tinned both surfaces first. Do you solder the rails without first tinning? How do you get a joiner onto a tinned rail?
My soldering station has a water well and a sponge for cleaning the tip. Someone drilled a nice set of holes in the sponge which is convenient for cleaning off excess solder and flux with a dip and twist.
I'd always understood you get the best conductivity and adhesion from soldered joints If you tinned both surfaces first. Do you solder the rails without first tinning? How do you get a joiner onto a tinned rail?
As far as soldering rail joints, I just tin the soldering iron tip and then apply solder to the rail joint by coating over the rail joiner.
I have used some Radio Shack heat sinks for many years but alligator clips may do the job.
wp8thsubI hold the file against the OUTSIDE of the curve to keep the rail in alignment (i.e it's an alignment tool as opposed to a heat sink).
Got it!
Your track (along with everything else) always looks great, and your attention to detail is a good example for all of us.
Wayne
crossthedogHow do you hold a file against the joint while also soldering it? I think you'd have to hold the file against the outside of the rail, but that's where you want to apply the solder, nez pah?
doctorwayneI think that what Rob was suggesting was to hold the file against the inside of the rail-joint while you're soldering the joiner in place, as it will act as a heat sink.
I hold the file against the OUTSIDE of the curve to keep the rail in alignment (i.e it's an alignment tool as opposed to a heat sink). Note that you can feed solder into the joint prior to lining it up. I will typically add solder first, applying heat to get it to flow everywhere it's needed. Then I will hold a metal object like a file outside the curve, apply heat again, and gently push the rail into the correct position.
The whole process takes longer to describe than do. It's easy, allows you to get perfect results every time, and yet relatively few modelers do it.
crossthedogAlso, someone suggested avoiding joints on a curve. I understand that principle and will adhere to it as best I can...
There's no need to worry about avoiding joints on curves. Once you get used to soldering and lining things up, rail on a curve can be perfectly smooth whether you manage to keep joints out of it or not.
JC Farm 1 by wp8thsub, on Flickr
JC Farm 1
Rail joints here were finished as described. After the track is painted and ballasted, the joints disappear and all you see is a smooth curve. This may be one of those projects you'll look back on and wonder why you were ever concerned in the first place. It only sounds intimidating until you do it.
Rob Spangler
crossthedogbuying the "good enough for a beginner" X-Tronic #3020-XTS-ST (link) online
Hi again Matt,
Don't buy the X-Tronic iron or the Weller iron. They are both crap! Pardon my English but I speak from experience. I have owned both, and thrown both in the garbage.
For the same price you can get a XYtronic like this one. It is powerful enough to solder rail joiners and it can also be used for delicate electronic work as well.
http://www.xytronic-usa.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=253
https://www.jameco.com/z/LF-389D-Xytronic-Industries-60W-Mini-Type-Digital-Soldering-Station_2174733.html
I thought I was reasonably good at soldering, although I always had a terrible time keeping tips clean. Based on Randy Rinker's recommendation, I bought an XYtronic station similar to the one above and the difference was like night and day!!! Soldering became so much easier and the dirty tip problem practically vanished.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
crossthedog Also, someone suggested avoiding joints on a curve. I understand that principle and will adhere to it as best I can, but I have three large curves and a piece of flex track is only three feet long, so there will be joints on all my curves, including the yard lead because that's where my curved turnouts are.
Also, someone suggested avoiding joints on a curve. I understand that principle and will adhere to it as best I can, but I have three large curves and a piece of flex track is only three feet long, so there will be joints on all my curves, including the yard lead because that's where my curved turnouts are.
At the end of a peninsula on my layout sits a 9-stall roundhouse. I have a double mainline that runs around the roundhouse. It requires 4 sections of flextrack on each mainline.
I trimmed two ties off each end of each piece of flextrack, added rail joiners, and soldered the four pieces of flextrack together for each mainline on the basement concrete floor. I didn't even need heat sinks since the ties were far enough away from the rail joints.
As I formed each of the two curves for the inner and outer mainline, if I needed more space, I clipped off additional ties, but just enough ties to enable me to freely form the curves. You want to minimize those spaces that are unsupported by ties spiked up against the rails.
crossthedog..How do you hold a file against the joint while also soldering it? I think you'd have to hold the file against the outside of the rail, but that's where you want to apply the solder, nez pah?
I think that what Rob was suggesting was to hold the file against the inside of the rail-joint while you're soldering the joiner in place, as it will act as a heat sink.
I solder all of my rail joints (except those on the ends of my bridges, which are all removeable). This has allowed me to power my DC layout using only two wires, each about 2' long, to power the entire 500'-or-so of track, rather than having to run bus wires.If the bridge joiners eventually lose power due to oxidation, I can simply replace them with new joiners, or solder together drop wires at both ends of the bridges - they were installed when the track was originally laid, just in case the unsoldered joiners failed.
On the partial upper level of my layout, I used Central Valley tie strips (a gift from a friend who preferred flex track), and code 83 rail, but when I went to my local hobbyshop (now long gone), the only rail joiners they had in-stock were for code 55 rail. I bought all that they had, figuring that I could open them up a bit, then force them onto the rail.However, that proved impractical, so I used a cut-off disc in a motor tool to narrow the rail's base at both ends, and also removed some material from the bottom of the base. This allowed the small joiners to slip easily into place on the rails, and all I needed to do was solder the joints.I soldered together 4 or 5 pieces of rail (12' or 15'), then used contact cement to secure the rails to the ties, which were already in place. This eliminated any need for heat sinks to prevent deformation of the plastic ties.Here's a photo, under magnification, showing how inconspicuous the joiners can be....
If I need to lay more track, I'll definitely use the tie strips, rather than flex track.
wp8thsubThere is absolutely no need to solder the joiner prior to installing the track on a curve. It's easy to hold the rail in place with something like a file or other flat metal object while soldering, and keep it aligned until the solder cools.
@wp8thsub, I have a question for you about the method you mention. I'm probably going to solder a couple lengths while the track is straight, i.e. before mounting on the roadbed, but even so I'm curious. How do you hold a file against the joint while also soldering it? I think you'd have to hold the file against the outside of the rail, but that's where you want to apply the solder, nez pah?
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
LastspikemikeAnother method I've found useful for finding the exact end of the rail to be cut is to nick the rail to be cut using the rail cutters backwards. The rail cutters have a flat face and the wedge face firming the cutting edge. Cut rails have one square and flat end which is usable and a wedge shaped cut on the scrap piece to be discarded (or reverse cut once more to create a fresh flat square end making the scrap piece usable.)
This is a good point. I learned after cutting a few pieces that I needed to be very exact in how I held the cutter. I also went out and bought a good small file to correct the cuts if I wasn't careful enough.
York1 John
DoughlessAlso place the sliding rail on the inside since it keeps the ties spaced more prototypically and so the slider doesn't slide out of its ties like it would if it was on the outside.
Ditto.
I try to form the curve best I can beforehand, like you did, which gives the general amount of rail that needs to be cut off.
I curve the track to where it will be and then score the top of the rail with an Xacto where it is even with the other rail. Then I can cut it at the point I marked so when it has been soldered and curved, the joints will be paralle.
If you leave that rail on, as you can see, you would have to remove more ties on the connecting piece in order for the joiner on the sliding rail to have clearence.
That's one of the primary reason I don't stagger joints. Need to remove more ties unnecessarily and there is no advantage to staggered joints.
I have used a simple soldering gun purchased at hardware stores. Flux paste and rosin core solder.
You can melt the ties if you're not careful, but you'll remove them anyway to install the rail joiners first.
Also place the sliding rail on the inside since it keeps the ties spaced more prototypically and so the slider doesn't slide out of its ties like it would if it was on the outside.
- Douglas
crossthedog UPDATE: I've just discovered that a Home Depot nearby has the Weller WLC100 Soldering Station for around $40. That's another one I'm considering, but if these "affordable" stations are not a good value in your experience, I'd pass.
UPDATE: I've just discovered that a Home Depot nearby has the Weller WLC100 Soldering Station for around $40. That's another one I'm considering, but if these "affordable" stations are not a good value in your experience, I'd pass.
Affordable is fine! When it comes to soldering rails, all you need is high wattage, not fancy dials and digital displays. I soldered rail with an ultra-cheap stick iron (either 15W or 25W, I forget which) and although it managed most of the time, it was unable to stay hot enough to do a reliably good job, especially when I switched to lead-free solder.
I now use a 100W stick iron- again, no dials or controls or whatever- and it works great.
The Weller WLC100 you spoke of is 40W. I'm guessing that'd be enough, but someone else might have experience with a 40W iron and they could say for sure.
The key to soldering rail is lots of heat really fast. A brief touch with iron and solder to get your joint and then you remove the heat. That way your neighbouring plastic ties don't heat up enough to melt.
Soldering circuits and electronic components need the opposite from your iron: precise control of heat, but you don't need much power.
Thus I have two soldering irons; the 100W stick for rails, and for electronics I use a Quicko t12-942 soldering station. It's also very cheap but gives precise temperature control and fine tipped points for small ICs.
I have used the solder method too. What I did on my helix was to use the Fastracks radius templates. They are laser cut wood that fits between the rails of the track. I then used washers and srews close to the joints to fasten them to the roadbed. in visible areas I later applied glue and when dried I removed the screws.
wp8thsub crossthedog Am I right in understand you to be saying that solder is strong enough to actually hold two rails together as though they were welded? ...it doesn't seem like the solder as I remember it would be strong enough to hold against the force of the rail trying to flex back to straight. Solder by itself will not hold the joint if that's what you're asking. Solder is used to help the rail joiner to maintain alignment. If the joiner is soldered properly, it will stay put effectively forever.
crossthedog Am I right in understand you to be saying that solder is strong enough to actually hold two rails together as though they were welded? ...it doesn't seem like the solder as I remember it would be strong enough to hold against the force of the rail trying to flex back to straight.
Solder by itself will not hold the joint if that's what you're asking. Solder is used to help the rail joiner to maintain alignment. If the joiner is soldered properly, it will stay put effectively forever.
crossthedogAm I right in understand you to be saying that solder is strong enough to actually hold two rails together as though they were welded? ...it doesn't seem like the solder as I remember it would be strong enough to hold against the force of the rail trying to flex back to straight.
BigDaddyHe was a victim of Covid.
Thanks for all the continued feedback on the curves, guys. Am I right in understand you to be saying that solder is strong enough to actually hold two rails together as though they were welded? I remember soldering wires to the outside of rails a few times as a kid (as mentioned before) and it doesn't seem like the solder as I remember it would be strong enough to hold against the force of the rail trying to flex back to straight.
I'll find out soon enough. I think I've got a good idea now of what I'll do to get going learning soldering.
crossthedogThoughts on which route to take? Really, I can't afford half a house payment for soldering equipment, so the resistance station is a nonstarter.
I do all my track soldering with a cheap-o Weller iron I picked up at the home center. Considering this option has worked for me for around 40 years, I see no reason to invest in resistance soldering equipment for working on track.
A few more thoughts:
JC Turnouts 1 by wp8thsub, on Flickr
JC Turnouts 1
As shown above, soldered rail joints on curves can conform precisely to the flow of the trackwork. Rather than attempting to carve plastic ties for use under the solder joints, I use wood ties (often cut from something like 6X8 scale lumber), which disappear once the track is painted, and have the added bonus that they don't melt if you solder close to them.
crossthedogWait a sec.
The news sucks. He was a victim of Covid.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/287739.aspx?page=1
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
You don't have to start the whole piece of track where the last one stops, if that's going to leave you with a bad kink. Use shorter pieces that start and finish on straights and avoid joints on curves.
But yeah, you will have to learn to solder sooner or later. Sooner is better.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
BigDaddyour late electronics guru Randy Rinker
Xytronics is the one our late electronics guru Randy Rinker recommended and the one I bought.
X-tronics is something else.
Brasstrains.com has videos that show resistance soldering on...brass trains. You don't need that for flex track.
Welp, it looks like I'm dead in the water (or maybe dead in the canyon) until I have acquired ye Ancient Art (and Tools) of Soldering Magick. I've been researching today and there's no way I can justify the cost of a resistance solderer, nice as that would be. So I'm considering two other options; 1) buying the "good enough for a beginner" X-Tronic #3020-XTS-ST (link) online and weeding my garden while I wait for it to arrive or 2) running out and getting a 60-watt wand for couple of sawbucks (and some flux and solder for few fins more) so I can get started practicing my soldering wizardry tomorrow.
Thoughts on which route to take? Really, I can't afford half a house payment for soldering equipment, so the resistance station is a nonstarter. Have any of you used X-Tronic's products? Are they worth $60-$70? Or would it make more sense to just get a cheap handheld.
Thanks,
We've had numerous threads on this subject over the years, full of useful information. It only seems like a firehose because you're getting all the options at once. Take notes and quietly plan what of the advice given you want to use -- then do that.
I second the resistance-soldering idea for this use: this gets around most of the concerns with tie-melting or time to avoid cold joints and such. Use a good no-clean flux and, ideally, one of the eutectic solders (which "harden" quickly to form the joint) -- and yes, this is a perfect excuse to solder a small feeder wire into the joint while making it.
As an introduction to the wide world of soldering, read some of the material here as you have time:
https://aimsolder.com/aimsolderproducts?gclid=CjwKCAjwnPOEBhA0EiwA609Redw5ilNCSY-Vi6Ks_5UD2pYspZwBT5tucHrt5yc2YqJYS6eicnE46hoCyk0QAvD_BwE
There are other specialty soldering sites, including those catering to the jewelry industry, that are useful resources in 'learning at low cost'.
If you want, you can pre-bend the ends of the joint slightly using a curve gauge, while the track pieces are still straight and otherwise 'uncurved', before applying the joiner so there isn't a short 'hard spot' in your curve. This may be overkill to most modelers, though.
A general rule, if you're planning to keep expansion joints in trackwork, is to solder your curve and transition joints religiously and leave the open joints in straights and at turnouts. We've had threads on that too.
crossthedog...But in general I thought that the rail joiners were conductive, so the newest question bubbling up into my head is... are we soldering the joint because ALL joints need to be soldered, or are we soldering the joint in this case only because it will help retain the curve?...
Unless they're insulated (plastic), yes, the rail joiners are conductive. However, over time, their surface can oxidize enough that they're either less conductive or not conductive at all. I solder all of my rail joints (except those where there are bridges, as I build the bridges so that they're removeable - handy when the "water" under the bridges needs to be cleaned vacuumed or dusted).
As others have mentioned, if you do the soldering before the curve is completed, the soldered-together track will bend just as well as the portion that's already curved.
Wow. Just... wow. So much vital info here. I'm feeling like I need to take out a student loan and go back to college as a Model Railroading major with minors in Physics, Electrical Engineering and Not Getting Discouraged.
Thanks fellas. I'll have to read this thread over several more times. I don't have an "iron" yet, so thanks for the tips about that too.
Here's the embarrassing part: I don't remember soldering rail joints as a kid and we had a lot of joints because our first layout was all sectional track. I do remember soldering little wires to the rails, and I learned not to solder over my head by having solder drip onto my hand (luckily not into my eyes) while working underneath the train table.
But in general I thought that the rail joiners were conductive, so the newest question bubbling up into my head is... are we soldering the joint because ALL joints need to be soldered, or are we soldering the joint in this case only because it will help retain the curve?
Again, I am grateful for all this help. I've had good results from listening to you guys so far, right through to laying cork for turnouts.
As an aside, and not intended as a "rabbit trail".....
The current issue of MR has an article about Resistance soldering irons. It was an eye opener for me, and if I was starting a new layout, I would definitely have to have one.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central