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Pipe in the corner... How do I build benchwork around this?

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  • Member since
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  • From: Ludington, MI
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Posted by Water Level Route on Saturday, April 17, 2021 7:52 AM

SeeYou190
Good heavens! Do you guys really run 180 degree water in your pipes?

In hot water heat pipes yes, but do not confuse that for the hot water that runs out of the tap.  Two different systems.  In this case it's for heating the home.

A $3 piece of foam pipe insulation from one of the big box stores would protect against any contact concerns (probably aren't any but it's cheap insurance) and would make it a nice black color.  Would hide from your eyes easier.

Mike

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, April 17, 2021 8:13 AM

I might add two perpendicular blocks attached to your block to further reduce the chance of sway.

Rich

Anti-Sway-Blocks.jpg

Alton Junction

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Posted by Lastspikemike on Saturday, April 17, 2021 9:35 AM

richhotrain

I might add two perpendicular blocks attached to your block to further reduce the chance of sway.

Rich

Anti-Sway-Blocks.jpg

 

Those extra blocks would be much more effective if screwed in flat rather than vertical. Maximum strength would be developed with the blocks turned 90 degrees and fastened in halfway down.  Almost the same effect could be achieved with just one such block halfway down and placed in the middle of the space. 

For that matter, were I adding blocks the longer block would also be much stronger screwed the same way: horizontally and halfway down in the space.

Using blocking rather than altering the original framing as per Track Fiddler's drawing presents an opportunity to really strengthen this corner without adding any material than Track Fiddler's simpler plan would.

Alyth Yard

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Posted by rrebell on Saturday, April 17, 2021 9:37 AM

richhotrain

I might add two perpendicular blocks attached to your block to further reduce the chance of sway.

Rich

Anti-Sway-Blocks.jpg

 

Now you are getting beyond over kill. Any sway would be killed by the fact the front board goes the full way.

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, April 17, 2021 9:42 AM

rrebell

Now you are getting beyond over kill. Any sway would be killed by the fact the front board goes the full way. 

I see the location of the arrow point as the remaining weak spot with potential to sway. Besides, what does it hurt to add those two small blocks, especially if there is any future intent to move that portion of the layout?

Rich

Anti-Sway-Blocks-2.jpg

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Saturday, April 17, 2021 9:58 AM

Water Level Route
SeeYou190
Good heavens! Do you guys really run 180 degree water in your pipes?

In hot water heat pipes yes, but do not confuse that for the hot water that runs out of the tap.  Two different systems.  In this case it's for heating the home.

OK, that sounds better. I was unaware there are seperate heating and hot water systems.

Living up North all seems very complicated.

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, April 17, 2021 10:12 AM

SeeYou190

OK, that sounds better. I was unaware there are seperate heating and hot water systems.

Living up North all seems very complicated.

It need not be. Most newer homes built in the 1960s or later rely on forced air from natural gas fired furnaces to heat homes. You usually find hot water heated systems in older homes that have not been rehabbed or upgraded.

Rich

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Posted by Lastspikemike on Sunday, April 18, 2021 8:14 AM

richhotrain

 

 
rrebell

Now you are getting beyond over kill. Any sway would be killed by the fact the front board goes the full way. 

 

 

I see the location of the arrow point as the remaining weak spot with potential to sway. Besides, what does it hurt to add those two small blocks, especially if there is any future intent to move that portion of the layout?

 

Rich

Anti-Sway-Blocks-2.jpg

 

I agree. The longer board strengthens the one corner but not the other two corners. There are two inadequately supported corners at the left side of the picture. I'd add both blocks, right and left,  because the other corner at the right hand side could also benefit from the added structure. 

Moving the corner out in order to accommodate the pipe turns that corner inside out and creates two new corners to build, three corners instead of one. Each of the three corners needs to be properly framed.

Only one of the three corners is supported without adding the blocks suggested. 

I think model railroading benchwork is way overbuilt generally but not in cases like these. If you don't build in the strength here you will regret cutting these corners.  (LOL) 

Alyth Yard

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Posted by Doughless on Sunday, April 18, 2021 8:20 AM

All of this could have been avoided if OP just installed one single board at a 45 degree angle.  It would act like a gusset, and, long screws would allow the three boards to attach through their sides instead of short boards screwed into their ends.  Much stronger.

It would be less apt to rack, and anyway, its the table top that keeps the open grid from racking.

- Douglas

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Posted by Lastspikemike on Sunday, April 18, 2021 8:33 AM

Cutting 45 degrees and screwing them together can be a challenge for inexperienced home carpenters. If you cut 45 degree pieces it's best to make gussets and screw them into the 90 degree corners as such. Mind you there's no structural difference between a 45 degree block and a square block except you can make two for one if you cut 45 degrees. Using a diagonal board with no corner reinforcement is no stronger than the inside out squared off design, using 90 degree corners, by the time you're  done screwing the boards together. 

Alyth Yard

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Sunday, April 18, 2021 8:58 AM

It is just holding up a foam layout. It would have been fine as built, better with the extra crossmember, even better with two small reenforcements, or would have worked with a 45 degree angle.

There is no real issue here at all.

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, April 18, 2021 9:44 AM

SeeYou190

It is just holding up a foam layout. It would have been fine as built, better with the extra crossmember, even better with two small reenforcements, or would have worked with a 45 degree angle.

There is no real issue here at all.

-Kevin 

It's not the weight of the layout, it is the possibility of horizontal sway. Another option is to screw the framework to the wall.

Rich

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Posted by Harrison on Sunday, April 18, 2021 11:21 AM

There's no sense in discussing the options anymore, as I've already built and put it up... WhistlingSmile, Wink & Grin It is going in a corner, where it will be screwed to the wall on both sides, as well as bolted to the other modules(s). It's honestly quite sturdy right now without all of that, so I think I'll be ok. Photos can be found in the Weekend Photo Fun thread.

Harrison

Homeschooler living In upstate NY a.k.a Northern NY.

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Posted by Doughless on Monday, April 19, 2021 9:25 AM

Lastspikemike

Cutting 45 degrees and screwing them together can be a challenge for inexperienced home carpenters. If you cut 45 degree pieces it's best to make gussets and screw them into the 90 degree corners as such. Mind you there's no structural difference between a 45 degree block and a square block except you can make two for one if you cut 45 degrees. Using a diagonal board with no corner reinforcement is no stronger than the inside out squared off design, using 90 degree corners, by the time you're  done screwing the boards together. 

 

Build the box, then put in the 45 at a spot that will clear the pipe (and a piece of vertical board behind the 45 to attach the backdrop if he likes).  Install the joists, with one cut at 45 at the end to accommodate the 45 board.  Then cut away the corner of the box.  Leave the two stub ends of the corner if he wants.

Or do the same thing but install the two boards to the wall first.  Then the 45, then the outer boards on the legs, then fill in with the joists.

- Douglas

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Posted by Track fiddler on Monday, April 19, 2021 11:58 AM

Lunch time!

I just finished popcorning my ceiling repairs in the hall.  I used accelerator in the texture so I can paint them this afternoon.

All this talk of 45's is starting to make me feel a little dizzy.  Maybe I'll have an aspirin around noonSmile, Wink & Grin

A 45 in the corner so it's stronger and the framing doesn't rack. You mean like this?

I put one in each corner.  Each of those 45's have a rabbet on each end of the 45's to make it a little stronger.  And the whole table top only wieghs just over 21 lbsWink

 

It's snowing here.  Hot roast beef on French bread and swiss melts it isDinner

 

 

 

SmileTF

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, April 19, 2021 4:44 PM

Harrison
It's honestly quite sturdy right now without all of that, so I think I'll be ok.

I m quite certain it will be perfectly fine.

I saw the pictures you shared in weekend photo fun... it all looks very good.

Yes

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by Track fiddler on Monday, April 19, 2021 4:55 PM

SeeYou190

 

 
Harrison
It's honestly quite sturdy right now without all of that, so I think I'll be ok.

 

I m quite certain it will be perfectly fine.

I saw the pictures you shared in weekend photo fun... it all looks very good.

 

-Kevin

 

I concur

 

 

TF

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Posted by BigDaddy on Monday, April 19, 2021 6:39 PM

I had a house built in the 20's with a coal furnace converted to oil with hot water radiators.  It was a delightful even heat and all the radiators were covered with boxes with a diamond screen, so they weren't butt ugly.

I also had a house built in the 80's with thinner than normal copper piping.  Before I sold my house, 5 houses in my block developed pinhole leaks in the pipes in a 2 week period.  All their pipes needed to be ripped out.  Since they were behind drywall, it was an expensive proposition.

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, April 19, 2021 10:46 PM

BigDaddy
I also had a house built in the 80's with thinner than normal copper piping.  Before I sold my house, 5 houses in my block developed pinhole leaks in the pipes in a 2 week period. 

My house was built in 1989, I bought it in 1999. It was built with thin copper pipes, and they developed two pinhole leaks within a couple of weeks in 2001. It was a disaster to replace all the pipe.

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by Doughless on Tuesday, April 20, 2021 6:37 AM

Track fiddler

Lunch time!

I just finished popcorning my ceiling repairs in the hall.  I used accelerator in the texture so I can paint them this afternoon.

All this talk of 45's is starting to make me feel a little dizzy.  Maybe I'll have an aspirin around noonSmile, Wink & Grin

A 45 in the corner so it's stronger and the framing doesn't rack. You mean like this?

I put one in each corner.  Each of those 45's have a rabbet on each end of the 45's to make it a little stronger.  And the whole table top only wieghs just over 21 lbsWink

 

It's snowing here.  Hot roast beef on French bread and swiss melts it isDinner

 

 

 

SmileTF

 

The table top is what really keeps the open grid from racking.  Keep the grid square and plum before you attach a few finish nails to hold it in place, then screw away.

Any open grid that has screws installed into the ends of 1x stock is inherently prone to racking anyway.

But yes, triangle gussets help keep a joint square.  A 45 cut board works the same way.

Of course, if the walls that form the corner you're installing your layout isn't perfectly 90 degrees, building a perfect open grid structure isn't going to fit snuggly anyway.

Can use shims.

- Douglas

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, April 20, 2021 6:50 AM

Doughless

Of course, if the walls that form the corner you're installing your layout isn't perfectly 90 degrees, building a perfect open grid structure isn't going to fit snuggly anyway.

Good point, Douglas. Most people assume that the inside corners of walls are 90 degrees.  But that ain't necessarily true. Nor are walls necessarily plumb.

Rich

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Posted by Track fiddler on Tuesday, April 20, 2021 7:42 AM

Good morning

There's so many different variations of shimming Douglas.  I used to buy the wood ones when they were $0.79 a pack but refuse to pay over $2.00 these days for a product that's worth a nickel.  I shouldn't care as the customer pays for them anyway but it's just the principle of the thing.  I keep a knotless 2x4 in the truck and cut my own when I need them.  

My favorite shim is cardboard shim.  This product really helps when you're doing a drywall repair, especially by a mud joint where the drywall is thicker.  When you take the extra time to put the cardboard shim on the cripple backers, the sheetrock comes out nice and flush so you don't have to ding around with multiple coats of mud.  It saves you way more time in the end.

My favorite shim trick an old carpenter taught me about 20 years ago.  When you're installing base trim around the room, the drywall mud never goes all the way down to the floor.  So the base trim is never plumb in the corner.  I used to take the extra time to cope my second piece of trim at an angle so the joint was tight. Many trips back to the saw and re-coping.  Very time-consuming.

This old carpenter taught me his trick that I really appreciated.  You take a roofing nail and hammer it in the wall sill plate about 3/4" away from the corner low to the floor leaving the head of the nail out a 1/4".  You install your first piece of base in the corner over the nail.  Then when you form the inside corner joint with the second coped piece of base against the first one, you tap with your hammer where the nail is behind the first piece of base until the joint is tight.  This little trick made me the fastest base installer in the west and I thanked that old carpenter with a firm handshake. 

I very seldom use a tape measure when installing trim.  Only on a short piece that runs in-between walls in closets.  When trimming, I hold the piece of trim in place up to the prior piece installed and mark the joint to be cut with a sharp utility knife.  Same with casing.  No mistakes made that way and your joint is always tight the first timeBig Smile

 

 

 

TF

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Posted by Track fiddler on Wednesday, April 21, 2021 5:56 AM

Good morning

I see you pointed out the thin copper pipe Henry and Kevin.  Yep,  That red label pipe is junk.  I'm not quite sure how much thicker the blue label stuff is but it costs almost twice as much so I'm thinking it must be almost twice as thick.

I love the cheap pipe.  Job security!  That cheap stuff is failing all over my building so I'm always getting these little ceiling repair jobs.

I actually enjoy doing drywall repair jobs.  They're kind of an artsy-fartsy fun thingLaugh

The 3-inch pipe is the boiler recirculatory.  Water is continuously running through that pipe slowly so we always have hot water.

You are so right about needing shims Douglas.  Nothing in buildings is true.  See the cardboard shims on the cripples.  Cardboard shims are my favorite.

A rabbet notch in the surrounding drywall so the mesh is recessed helps so you dont have a hump on your finished plaster.

I like the light weight baby blue topping to iron out the imperfections on the perimeter

I don't like the big mess of a poly tent and sprayer so I apply the texture with a paintbrush, stabs and dabs.  Needs a shot of Kilz so nothing bleeds later.

 

 

 

TF

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Wednesday, April 21, 2021 6:04 AM

Dang TF, that is the best job I have ever seen patching and matching acoustic popcorn ceiling texture!

Bow

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by Track fiddler on Wednesday, April 21, 2021 6:28 AM

Thanks Kevin.  Years ago in my younger days they didn't turn out as well I can tell you.

 

 

TF

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Posted by BATMAN on Wednesday, April 21, 2021 11:21 AM

Good job on the ceiling repair TF.Yes  I had to do a couple myself and used the canned stuff. One was in the office and the other was when I took out the four, four-foot fluorescent lights that were around the skylight and put in pot lights and two UFO lights. 

Brent

It's not the age honey, it's the mileage.

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, April 21, 2021 11:25 AM

Brent, that kitchen of yours is to die for. Outstanding in all respects. I dare not show that photo to my wife.

Rich

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Posted by BATMAN on Wednesday, April 21, 2021 11:35 AM

Thanks, Rich, it all happened because of a leaky dishwasher. The company that did the work was just back to check on things as they are going to stage it and use it for all their promotional material. The wife is a happy camper.Whistling

The insurance company paid for the floor in the kitchen and we got enough extra tile to do the front hall, laundry room, powder room and office. I had to tear up all the old tile and hardwood in those rooms and lay a new subfloor, that was a lot of work.

Brent

It's not the age honey, it's the mileage.

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Posted by Track fiddler on Wednesday, April 21, 2021 3:41 PM

The kitchen looks beautiful Brent.  I've always been a big fan of can lighting.  The stainless and dark tile looks great with all the white in the rest of the kitchen.  Just a guess but does that happen to be Corian or Silestone countertops?  They look nice,  just curious.

 

 

 

TF

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Posted by PC101 on Wednesday, April 21, 2021 8:35 PM

For you guys with the copper pipes.

In general housing. A least around here.

''K'' soft copper is for under ground. Like a water service. Thick wall. No, I do not know the wall thickness anymore. 

''L'' hard or soft, Blue ink is for inside, general use. Still in houses since installed in the '50's.

''M'' hard, Red ink is for heating. Thin wall. Cheap.

Around here, Pennsylvania, if your copper pipe gets pinholes, it's the water eating through or the Flux not being washed out of the cold lines. The Flux, it will stay stuck, inside the pipe on the bottom and eat though. It takes many years to eat through.   

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