I am very good ot dealing with historical issues. Had the architect for the hysterical (mispelled on purpose) commission walk out of committee because I won getting white storm windows on a project (good thing as they were already ordered). Had a historical building declaired non historical do to wording in the governing papers (should have been a lawyer). The papers said that a particular house was not historic because it had 4 windows replaced so I had the owner pull a standard permit for window replacement and we did the job on a Saturday. Got rid of palm trees due to them being declared grass under federal rules even though it was against local rules on cutting down trees, no rules on cutting grass. There were of course other fun stuff (kinda of miss that kind of thing), even once stopped a mulitmillion apt complex from being build (till I left town).
SeeYou190 Maybe Jared will visit us again.
Maybe Jared will visit us again.
Rich
Alton Junction
mobilman44 Those of us who are Forum "old timers" have seen this before, but it always takes us time and energy to catch on to the "ruse" or "blue sky" thinking.
I don't think it is a ruse so much as the blue sky alternative.
I was honestly hoping for some good details about the plan. Maybe Jared will visit us again.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
mobilman44 Good grief.......... I can't fathom how someone with only two (2) posts can generate so much response from us. Those of us who are Forum "old timers" have seen this before, but it always takes us time and energy to catch on to the "ruse" or "blue sky" thinking.
Good grief.......... I can't fathom how someone with only two (2) posts can generate so much response from us. Those of us who are Forum "old timers" have seen this before, but it always takes us time and energy to catch on to the "ruse" or "blue sky" thinking.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
rrebell Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL Again, so happy to have never lived in a cookie cutter development with house police. Sheldon You may know the answer to this. What is the penalty for somebody not following Historical District requirements? Can the District put liens on the property until the historical error is remedied? Since the district is probably controlled by the city/county, they have more power? Depending on the laws there are some places that just fine but other ones that will make you tear it out and repair back to original.
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL Again, so happy to have never lived in a cookie cutter development with house police. Sheldon You may know the answer to this. What is the penalty for somebody not following Historical District requirements? Can the District put liens on the property until the historical error is remedied? Since the district is probably controlled by the city/county, they have more power?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Again, so happy to have never lived in a cookie cutter development with house police. Sheldon
Again, so happy to have never lived in a cookie cutter development with house police.
Sheldon
You may know the answer to this.
What is the penalty for somebody not following Historical District requirements? Can the District put liens on the property until the historical error is remedied?
Since the district is probably controlled by the city/county, they have more power?
Depending on the laws there are some places that just fine but other ones that will make you tear it out and repair back to original.
Down here things get really wonky. There are not many historical buildings down here, but there are a handfull here and there.
There is apparently a contradiction in the rules. If a historical building gets damaged by a hurricane, one set of rules require it to be kept original, and another set of rules require repairs to be updated to specific storm codes.
How do situations like this get resolved? My gut feeling is that the building should be repaired close to original, but include storm resistant updates.
I understand very little about historical desginations. One of the historical buildings in Fort Myers sat where a road needed to be widened, so it was purchased by the City and moved at high taxpayer expense. Now it sits in its new spot empty and unused.
riogrande5761 SeeYou190 Most HOAs remain just in this maintenance role, but many get out of hand. Within a few months of us moving into our home, the HOA board president moved to FL in early 2018. Shortly after there was only one board member left and it remained that way until last year sometime. Reading our by-laws and CCNRs, the board must have at least 3 members so this one board member wasn't legally a board. Then last fall a few of the residents decided to be board members and declared it so. No HOA residends have yet to vote them in but the Management Company Recognizes them as the board. Reading all the docs, my wife and I have doubts any of this is legal. As it turns out, our next door neighbor we are told is the president. Now this clown does everything without following the rules. He is a 15 year old in a 60 year old mans body with a mullet! For example he was supposed to get permission from the HOA to build his fence on our east property line. Did he? No. While we were still talking to him he admitted to my wife he didn't submit the ARC form or get approval. Nor did he get HOA approval to build his patio. And btw we've had water and drainage issues along our side of the fence that we never had prior to the fence being errected. The HOA rules say fence builder is responsible for any drainage issues caused by the fence. We'll see. hm.. Add to that he didn't bother his backside get a county permit to put in a bathroom or bedroom in his basement - he told me so while we were still talking to him. Nor did he to for his pool in his back yard. The only reason he put in the fence (without the HOA's approval) was that the county got wind of the pool and threatened to fine him if he didn't install the fence, as is required in many places for neighborhood child safety. Later , he installed a shed 1 foot off our property line and the County code says it has to be at least 5 feet. The guy is breaks every rule and yet he is the HOA president? Anything wrong with this picture. But our now HOA manager doesn't seem bothered by this at all. SMH It's like the wolf guarding the hen house. For the past year he has constantly bocked our garbage bins with his too many cars such that we have left them out to hold a spot, which is puts us in violation of the rules but the only way we could get our trash emptied. HOA managment company tells us its a personal problem yet it prevents us from consistently getting our trash picked up. We read that in Virginia that for a person to be an HOA board member, they have to be in "good standing". I read that means they are not in arrears with their HOA dues AND they are following the HOA by-laws and CCNRS etc. This guy ignores the rules and his modus operandi is it's better to ask forgiveness than permission. I also know the vice president last we talked to him, wants the HOA to overlook the big BBQ trailer in his driveway, which is also against the rules. These clowns want to get a free pass while the rest of us get hammered. Our neighbor on the other side went to put her house on the market and she was hit with 20 violations. Some we learned later were not actually HOA violations - like the roof. They expected her to pressure wash her roof, but when we talked to a professional pressure washer he said he would never do it, it would damage the shingles. The management company was supposed to be doing yearly inspections but they weren't. Seems to me that is a neglect of duty, all the while they were collecting dues from us. It's just one BS thing after another since this HOA woke up from the dead in the past few months with a new rogue board. The management company community manager was extremely rude to my wife when she inquired what happened to our ARC form seeking to build a fence on the other side of the property which sent in last June. Apparently they lost it. But the woman was very nasty on the phone and it was the first contact we ever had with her. We are told she has been removed as over our communty now, but she was the person who did the house sale inspection on our neighbor and wrote too many violations. The next door neighbor ended up taking her house off the market and we are helping her to catch up on some exterior remediations while do work on our home exterior. We are anticipating the HOA anual inspection (which hasn't been done for probably 3 + years due to the HOA being comotose for that long. It's a total crap storm. HOA's are simply evil organizations and often self serving. The only real solution seems to hire legal counsel and go after the HOA, but we are bleeding money what with exterior house fixing up for the bloody HOA, my daughters wedding and other things.
SeeYou190 Most HOAs remain just in this maintenance role, but many get out of hand.
Within a few months of us moving into our home, the HOA board president moved to FL in early 2018. Shortly after there was only one board member left and it remained that way until last year sometime. Reading our by-laws and CCNRs, the board must have at least 3 members so this one board member wasn't legally a board. Then last fall a few of the residents decided to be board members and declared it so. No HOA residends have yet to vote them in but the Management Company Recognizes them as the board. Reading all the docs, my wife and I have doubts any of this is legal.
As it turns out, our next door neighbor we are told is the president. Now this clown does everything without following the rules. He is a 15 year old in a 60 year old mans body with a mullet! For example he was supposed to get permission from the HOA to build his fence on our east property line. Did he? No. While we were still talking to him he admitted to my wife he didn't submit the ARC form or get approval. Nor did he get HOA approval to build his patio. And btw we've had water and drainage issues along our side of the fence that we never had prior to the fence being errected. The HOA rules say fence builder is responsible for any drainage issues caused by the fence. We'll see. hm..
Add to that he didn't bother his backside get a county permit to put in a bathroom or bedroom in his basement - he told me so while we were still talking to him. Nor did he to for his pool in his back yard. The only reason he put in the fence (without the HOA's approval) was that the county got wind of the pool and threatened to fine him if he didn't install the fence, as is required in many places for neighborhood child safety. Later , he installed a shed 1 foot off our property line and the County code says it has to be at least 5 feet. The guy is breaks every rule and yet he is the HOA president? Anything wrong with this picture. But our now HOA manager doesn't seem bothered by this at all. SMH It's like the wolf guarding the hen house. For the past year he has constantly bocked our garbage bins with his too many cars such that we have left them out to hold a spot, which is puts us in violation of the rules but the only way we could get our trash emptied. HOA managment company tells us its a personal problem yet it prevents us from consistently getting our trash picked up.
We read that in Virginia that for a person to be an HOA board member, they have to be in "good standing". I read that means they are not in arrears with their HOA dues AND they are following the HOA by-laws and CCNRS etc. This guy ignores the rules and his modus operandi is it's better to ask forgiveness than permission. I also know the vice president last we talked to him, wants the HOA to overlook the big BBQ trailer in his driveway, which is also against the rules. These clowns want to get a free pass while the rest of us get hammered. Our neighbor on the other side went to put her house on the market and she was hit with 20 violations. Some we learned later were not actually HOA violations - like the roof. They expected her to pressure wash her roof, but when we talked to a professional pressure washer he said he would never do it, it would damage the shingles.
The management company was supposed to be doing yearly inspections but they weren't. Seems to me that is a neglect of duty, all the while they were collecting dues from us.
It's just one BS thing after another since this HOA woke up from the dead in the past few months with a new rogue board. The management company community manager was extremely rude to my wife when she inquired what happened to our ARC form seeking to build a fence on the other side of the property which sent in last June. Apparently they lost it. But the woman was very nasty on the phone and it was the first contact we ever had with her. We are told she has been removed as over our communty now, but she was the person who did the house sale inspection on our neighbor and wrote too many violations. The next door neighbor ended up taking her house off the market and we are helping her to catch up on some exterior remediations while do work on our home exterior. We are anticipating the HOA anual inspection (which hasn't been done for probably 3 + years due to the HOA being comotose for that long. It's a total crap storm. HOA's are simply evil organizations and often self serving.
The only real solution seems to hire legal counsel and go after the HOA, but we are bleeding money what with exterior house fixing up for the bloody HOA, my daughters wedding and other things.
tstage Call my skeptical...but I think you guys are being fed a ruse...
Call my skeptical...but I think you guys are being fed a ruse...
ATLANTIC CENTRALFor a pretty good while now, based on years of experiance, I have had a good idea of how much layout would satisfy me, how much layout I could handle, and how much would be way too much. My new layout is a good balance of what will satisfy me and what I can handle.
It took me several previous layouts, and decades of helping on other people's layouts, for me to figure out what I could handle and what I need to be satisfied.
I hope I have the plan right!
John-NYBW richhotrain I took notice when this guy first posted because I sometimes muse over a 100' x 100' outbuilding in which I could build all six of the large downtown Chicago passenger train stations that flourished in the 1950s and earlier. Each station would include the track leading into and out of the train station. One massive operation. Just a dream since I don't have the resources to do any such thing. Rich I had a similar dream to model the Omaha Union and Burlington stations. Both stations were on the south end of downtown and were connected by an overhead concourse that had a bend in it because the tracks of the two stations weren't quite parallel. This project would be made easier by the fact that Walthers Union Station kit is a slightly compressed version of the Burlington Station but otherwise a pretty faithful replica. I'd just build it as a diorama rather than make it part of a layout. The biggest challenge would be the Union Station which is quite ornate on the outside and would need to be scratch built. Like yours, mine will likely never go beyond the dream stage. Both stations are still standing. Union Station is now home to the Durham Museum while the Burlington Station has been converted to a news studio for the local ABC affiliate.
richhotrain I took notice when this guy first posted because I sometimes muse over a 100' x 100' outbuilding in which I could build all six of the large downtown Chicago passenger train stations that flourished in the 1950s and earlier. Each station would include the track leading into and out of the train station. One massive operation. Just a dream since I don't have the resources to do any such thing. Rich
I took notice when this guy first posted because I sometimes muse over a 100' x 100' outbuilding in which I could build all six of the large downtown Chicago passenger train stations that flourished in the 1950s and earlier. Each station would include the track leading into and out of the train station. One massive operation.
Just a dream since I don't have the resources to do any such thing.
I had a similar dream to model the Omaha Union and Burlington stations. Both stations were on the south end of downtown and were connected by an overhead concourse that had a bend in it because the tracks of the two stations weren't quite parallel. This project would be made easier by the fact that Walthers Union Station kit is a slightly compressed version of the Burlington Station but otherwise a pretty faithful replica. I'd just build it as a diorama rather than make it part of a layout. The biggest challenge would be the Union Station which is quite ornate on the outside and would need to be scratch built. Like yours, mine will likely never go beyond the dream stage.
Both stations are still standing. Union Station is now home to the Durham Museum while the Burlington Station has been converted to a news studio for the local ABC affiliate.
For a pretty good while now, based on years of experiance, I have had a good idea of how much layout would satisfy me, how much layout I could handle, and how much would be way too much.
My new layout is a good balance of what will satisfy me and what I can handle.
When house shopping, the wife and I rejected several larger homes, which had correspondingly larger train rooms, we both know our limits.
And I made a sincere effort to meet my layout goals while keeping the layout as simple as possible.
In the end, I did add one more somewhat complex feature I had hoped to avoid to meet my goals.
My real estate agent, who is a friend and long time business associate, was surprised when we looked at the house we purchased and I said, "this basement is big enough", as he knew what the space would be used for.
And will use it all, and be happy I'm not tempted by having more space.
ROBERT PETRICK There's a 70-acre beanfield behind my house; wide open, flat like a pancake. You'd need to bring a lot of rocks to hold down the four corners of each sheet, but it could be done (and without the expense of renting out an exhibition hall). Robert
There's a 70-acre beanfield behind my house; wide open, flat like a pancake. You'd need to bring a lot of rocks to hold down the four corners of each sheet, but it could be done (and without the expense of renting out an exhibition hall).
Robert
DrWOne last point, in response to all of you who offered to volunteer for Jared's project:
I'm not voluntering for anything. I expect to be paid for what I bring to the table.
BATMAN ATLANTIC CENTRAL But if I had a track plan, in ten minutes I would have a wiring diagram........ maybe that makes me "odd" as well? Sheldon Okay Sheldon, DC, DCC or ?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But if I had a track plan, in ten minutes I would have a wiring diagram........ maybe that makes me "odd" as well? Sheldon
Okay Sheldon, DC, DCC or ?
DCC of course, so a computer can run it easily.
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut if I had a track plan, in ten minutes I would have a wiring diagram........ maybe that makes me "odd" as well? Sheldon
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Well, I'm not good at guessing what goes on in the minds of other people. I leave that to my wife, the retired mental health professional.
That kind of thinking is not in my make up - I really don't know how to do it - maybe that makes me borderline Aspergers, high functioning austistic, or just lazy when it comes to people.
Ruse or not, that is why I have offered lots of info on "theory" and not tried to directly solve the problem.
That, and I don't have the time to sort thru all this.
But if I had a track plan, in ten minutes I would have a wiring diagram........ maybe that makes me "odd" as well?
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
DrW One last point, in response to all of you who offered to volunteer for Jared's project: the Braun brothers decided against using volunteers, but opted for a paid staff (for many of the positions you do not even have to have modeling or model railroading experience). Their reasoning: If we ask a volunteer to "plant" 20,000 sunflowers, most of them will quit after a few hundreds. If you get paid, you just do your job. JW
One last point, in response to all of you who offered to volunteer for Jared's project: the Braun brothers decided against using volunteers, but opted for a paid staff (for many of the positions you do not even have to have modeling or model railroading experience). Their reasoning: If we ask a volunteer to "plant" 20,000 sunflowers, most of them will quit after a few hundreds. If you get paid, you just do your job.
JW
I did not hear anyone volunteer, I offered my professional services (I am an experianced construction project manger, long time model railroader, and previous model train industry professional)
Kevin and Robert both also have professional skills they would bring to this project for reasonable compensation.
Don't understand the desire to build something this large. But more power to ya!
"Size matters not! Judge me by my size do you?"
Andy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Milwaukee native modeling the Milwaukee Road in 1950's Milwaukee.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/196857529@N03/
It is terribly difficult to pull a project like this off in a financially profitable manner. I have read the autobiography of Gerrit and Frederik Braun, the masterminds behind Miniatur Wunderland ("Kleine Welt, grosse Traeume" - "Small World - Big Dreams"; so far only available in German). They had many things going for them and caught some lucky breaks.
First, they had already been successful businessmen when they started, having run a disco/nightclub for more than ten years. And they did their homework; they ran a survey asking people on the internet (something quite new in 1993) to rank 40 different attractions in Hamburg (some real, some hypothetical). Among the men, a really large model train layout was #3, among the women, #40 out of 40. Thus, they decided not only to focus on trains, but also on lots of little scenes that have nothing to do with trains. In one of their more recent displays, the Knuffingen Airport, you will be hard-pressed to find the single train-related item (a subway station). Thus, the attraciveness goes much beyond the model railroad afficionado, and makes it more of a family event.
Among the lucky breaks, they got very quickly their first loan of 2 million Deutschmarks from a single lender (a Hamburg bank), avoiding time-consuming fund-raising events. Second, just at the time when they were trying to start the first phase of the project, the City of Hamburg ran a "revitalization" program for the "Speicherstadt", an area with abandoned, but still structurally (relatively) sound large storage buildings close to the harbor. Part of the program was a tax-exempt status for new businesses in this area for a number of years.
One item not to be discounted is the personal aspect. We are talking here about twin brothers, each one with their personal strengths. One was more the vivionary, the other ran the books. And when there were discouraging moments (and there were a few of them), one brother could pull the other one through the situation.
How many people remember Gullivers Gate in NYC? They had a large display of model trains running from all over the world. Eventually, they went bankrupt. While he sees vision of grandeur, I wonder if it's really worth the time, money and reward?
Neal
I have a collection of vintage and historical architectural and construction plans (hey, gotta have hobbies other than model railroading), including plans for the Hoover (nee Boulder) Dam and the Eiffel Tower.
The Eiffel Tower plans include about 50 double-folio plates of the actual construction plans that were published by Eiffel himself around 1900. I scanned a few and brought them into AutoCAD. I was able to rectify images from the various plan-, elevation-, and section views, and correct distortions caused by the original publication and subsequent digital scanning processes. CAD allows a technique called 'rubber sheeting' for such purposes. I was also able to correct some obvious errors and misalignments made by the original draftsmen. All easily managed with an ordinary desktop computer and an antique oak drafting table.
It isn't important what I did or how I did it. I'm only saying that it's possible with the right tools and with enough talent and resources. So, my question is . . . is the OP's project as large and as complex as La Tour de 300 Metres?
LINK to SNSR Blog
SeeYou190 I don't know why he needs an accurate track plan to secure funding. Artist's representations and a financial plan seem more important. -Kevin
I don't know why he needs an accurate track plan to secure funding.
Artist's representations and a financial plan seem more important.
I was going to say that too, at least to start the process and gauge interest.
But I think this step he's taking is part of the artistry of the project. And it may not cost a lot for OP to do it.
- Douglas
snjroy Rich, that sounds like the Lion's subway project. Did he not fill the attic of his monastery with his HO subway system? Haven't heard his roar for a while now.. Simon
Rich, that sounds like the Lion's subway project. Did he not fill the attic of his monastery with his HO subway system? Haven't heard his roar for a while now..
Simon
He has to do two specific things here: tile his sketches together to manage them all 'in context' from one place, and then optimize them so all the rail lines connect smoothly and there is non-labyrinthine access space for viewing. Nothing about actual construction, logistics, etc. comes into it immediately... although he could certainly benefit from topo mapping tools to put in "z-axis information" as he works
I was smiling when I read gregc's comment; it reminded me of how Marshall Holloway laid out the Mike device, full-size with draftsmen in stocking feet crawling out to work in details.
Here he'll need a Segway...
SeeYou190 Jared: Have you studied the scope of work necessary to put the HO scale BNSF layout in the Chicago Museum Of Science And Industry. It might give you an idea of how much work you are looking at. This project was backed by Warren Buffet, and still lacks the maintenance it deserves. The layout represents the United States from Seattle to Chicago. -Kevin
Jared:
Have you studied the scope of work necessary to put the HO scale BNSF layout in the Chicago Museum Of Science And Industry. It might give you an idea of how much work you are looking at.
This project was backed by Warren Buffet, and still lacks the maintenance it deserves.
The layout represents the United States from Seattle to Chicago.
Or David Trussell and his Greeley Freight Station Museum. He said he started with $5 million and a 9000 SF building (5000 SF layout, the rest workshop and storage). He told me he needed double that.