Every place I ever lived required 20 amps to outlets and 15 for lighting.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich, I hope you used stranded wire. 1/2" EMT can hold 9 #12 wires, or 4 circuits with separate neutrals. With 14 wire you can get 12 wires in 1/2" EMT. Chicago is unique with electrical codes, but I am surprised your kitchen had 15 amp circuits. Not sure when it changed, but 20 amp counter top circuits have been code for a long time. Sheldon
Rich, I hope you used stranded wire. 1/2" EMT can hold 9 #12 wires, or 4 circuits with separate neutrals. With 14 wire you can get 12 wires in 1/2" EMT.
Chicago is unique with electrical codes, but I am surprised your kitchen had 15 amp circuits. Not sure when it changed, but 20 amp counter top circuits have been code for a long time.
Sheldon
When our current home was built in 1999, the kitchen and bathrooms were to be wired with 15 amp circuits, but we specified, and paid additional charges, to have 20 amp circuits in the bathrooms ( a hard lesson learned in our prior residence when our teenage daughters constantly blew shared 15 amp circuits in two different bathrooms with their hairdryers).
When we moved in, the back wall of the kitchen where the main counters were located had two 15 amp circuits. That said, the bathroom wall outlets over the counters and the kitchen wall outlet nearest the sink had GFCI breakers. When I switched to 20 amp circuits in the kitchen, I installed GFCI breakers on all of the back wall outlets.
Rich
Alton Junction
doctorwayne When the Hydro inspector came, he went over the whole house very thoroughly, well-aware that I was not an electrician, and at the end, pronounced it "extremely well-done, and one of the neatest jobs he had ever inspected". Wayne
When the Hydro inspector came, he went over the whole house very thoroughly, well-aware that I was not an electrician, and at the end, pronounced it "extremely well-done, and one of the neatest jobs he had ever inspected".
Wayne
When my son and I built a second story deck on the back of his tri-level home in Missouri, we used hurricane clips on all framework connections. Instead of lag screws into the ledger board, we used lag bolts secured by nuts which could be accessed inside of the garage.
When the inspector approved the work, he commented that a tornado might take down the house, but he was convinced that the deck would still be standing. I was never so flattered.
rrebell Every place I ever lived required 20 amps to outlets and 15 for lighting.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich, I hope you used stranded wire. 1/2" EMT can hold 9 #12 wires, or 4 circuits with separate neutrals. With 14 wire you can get 12 wires in 1/2" EMT. Chicago is unique with electrical codes, but I am surprised your kitchen had 15 amp circuits. Not sure when it changed, but 20 amp counter top circuits have been code for a long time. Sheldon For 15 amp circuits (14 gauge wire) and 20 amp circuits (12 gauge wire), I always use solid copper wire to conform to the type of wire initially used by the subcontractor, a licensed electrician. I have no interest in maximum bundles of wire that will fit into 1/2" EMT. Whenever possible, I limit all conduit to one circuit. When our current home was built in 1999, the kitchen and bathrooms were to be wired with 15 amp circuits, but we specified, and paid additional charges, to have 20 amp circuits in the bathrooms ( a hard lesson learned in our prior residence when our teenage daughters constantly blew shared 15 amp circuits in two different bathrooms with their hairdryers). When we moved in, the back wall of the kitchen where the main counters were located had two 15 amp circuits. That said, the bathroom wall outlets over the counters and the kitchen wall outlet nearest the sink had GFCI breakers. When I switched to 20 amp circuits in the kitchen, I installed GFCI breakers on all of the back wall outlets. Rich
For 15 amp circuits (14 gauge wire) and 20 amp circuits (12 gauge wire), I always use solid copper wire to conform to the type of wire initially used by the subcontractor, a licensed electrician. I have no interest in maximum bundles of wire that will fit into 1/2" EMT. Whenever possible, I limit all conduit to one circuit.
That's fine, but solid wire is more difficult to work with in the conduit environment. Both are completely within the code.
You did the right thing with thebaths and kitchen, no question. All of that is code now.
Most of the work I design or do is above code minimum, and I explain why it is important.
As I begin the new layout, I have what you had, the basic minimum unfinished basement wiring, some of which I have already upgraded.
And I have 10 spare breakers in my basement sub panel for whatever I decide I want.
At least two 20A circuits will go to the workshop area. Even with LED's lighting may well be two 15A lighting circuits. So it is likely I will use at least six of those available circuits.
That's interesting, I would like to see those local code amendments to the NEC, because there is nothing like that in the national code.
There is also nothing in the code that prevents people from building above the code requirements.
And some local jurisdictions do have their own stricter codes, like Cook County, Ill.
But most just go with the NEC as written.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL That's fine, but solid wire is more difficult to work with in the conduit environment. Both are completely within the code. You did the right thing with thebaths and kitchen, no question. All of that is code now. Most of the work I design or do is above code minimum, and I explain why it is important. As I begin the new layout, I have what you had, the basic minimum unfinished basement wiring, some of which I have already upgraded. And I have 10 spare breakers in my basement sub panel for whatever I decide I want. At least two 20A circuits will go to the workshop area. Even with LED's lighting may well be two 15A lighting circuits. So it is likely I will use at least six of those available circuits.
Like you, Sheldon, I am running out of available spare breakers. But, I think that I have completed my circuit needs at this point.
richhotrain rrebell Every place I ever lived required 20 amps to outlets and 15 for lighting. Wow, that is definitely overkill in my book. Rich
Wow, that is definitely overkill in my book.
As I pointed out early in this, a 20A circuit does not have to have 20A receptacles.
When I rewired the big blue Victorian, I ran 20A circuits everywhere so that it would take less circuits for the general lighting and receptacles. I was fishing wiring thru existing walls that were not being opened up. We preserved about 65% of the original plaster walls, and only removed or reworked millwork where needed.
Actual 20A receptacles need only be used on dedicated 20A circuits that have only one receptacle, like your washing machine, refrigerator, etc.
There is code minimum, there is good practice, and sometimes there is over kill.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain rrebell Every place I ever lived required 20 amps to outlets and 15 for lighting. Wow, that is definitely overkill in my book. Rich As I pointed out early in this, a 20A circuit does not have to have 20A receptacles. When I rewired the big blue Victorian, I ran 20A circuits everywhere so that it would take less circuits for the general lighting and receptacles. I was fishing wiring thru existing walls that were not being opened up. We preserved about 65% of the original plaster walls, and only removed or reworked millwork where needed. Actual 20A receptacles need only be used on dedicated 20A circuits that have only one receptacle, like your washing machine, refrigerator, etc. There is code minimum, there is good practice, and sometimes there is over kill. Sheldon
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL That's fine, but solid wire is more difficult to work with in the conduit environment. Both are completely within the code. You did the right thing with thebaths and kitchen, no question. All of that is code now. Most of the work I design or do is above code minimum, and I explain why it is important. As I begin the new layout, I have what you had, the basic minimum unfinished basement wiring, some of which I have already upgraded. And I have 10 spare breakers in my basement sub panel for whatever I decide I want. At least two 20A circuits will go to the workshop area. Even with LED's lighting may well be two 15A lighting circuits. So it is likely I will use at least six of those available circuits. Agreed. 12 gauge solid is more difficult to work with than 12 gauge stranded. There are some specialized wiring tools that help ease installation of 12 gauge wiring. I never use the push-in openings in the back of receptacles. Rather, I rely on the screw connectors to tightly secure the bare wire ends. Like you, Sheldon, I am running out of available spare breakers. But, I think that I have completed my circuit needs at this point. Rich
Agreed. 12 gauge solid is more difficult to work with than 12 gauge stranded. There are some specialized wiring tools that help ease installation of 12 gauge wiring. I never use the push-in openings in the back of receptacles. Rather, I rely on the screw connectors to tightly secure the bare wire ends.
Rich, the better switches and receptacles these days clamp the straight end of the wire when the screw is tightened, you no longer bend the wire around the screw with the better devices.
YES, NEVER use the stab locs - the next electrician who works there will hate you.
It is always easy, but not always cheap, to get more circuits. Piggyback breakers provide two breakers in one space, or a sub panel can be installed.
The Victorian house had a 40 circuit 200A panel, and three additional sub panels - one in the train room above the garage... It did power the heat and A/C for that space.
The new house has a 30 circuit 200A panel, a 20 circuit sub panel, and a generator transfer switch panel. And it will get another sub panel when I build the detached garage. I will never run out of breaker space in total, even if I fill up the basement panel.
One of the best things if your wiring new for a layout is on/off switchs for each circuit. When leaving the layout room or area, flip the swiths and everything is off.
I'm well behind the curve on this, but one son gave another Wi-Fi outlets and switches for Christmas last week Yes thanks to Covid, Christmas was celebrated last week.
These days you can sit in your bed and say "Alexa turn off the train room lights" And she will, while she sends videos of you and your bedroom activities to twitter.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
ATLANTIC CENTRALHere in the US electrical breaker panels are allowed a max of 42 circuits. Sheldon
In 2008 the NEC removed that limitation, and replaced it with the panel manufacturer's specification for maximum number of breakers.
Did they reinstate the 42 breaker limit in a later edition of the code?
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Pruitt ATLANTIC CENTRAL Here in the US electrical breaker panels are allowed a max of 42 circuits. Sheldon I think that particular fact is a little out of date, Sheldon. In 2008 the NEC removed that limitation, and replaced it with the panel manufacturer's specification for maximum number of breakers. Did they reinstate the 42 breaker limit in a later edition of the code?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Here in the US electrical breaker panels are allowed a max of 42 circuits. Sheldon
I think that particular fact is a little out of date, Sheldon.
Yes, I forgot about that change, but the the fact is 120/240 single phase panels have not increased in size as a result. Now it is is simply legal to use the manufacturer specified number of piggyback breakers even in 40 and 42 circuit panels.
So a new panel might be rated 42/56 meaning one third of the spaces allow piggybacks and now you can legally fill it with single pole breakers including the manufacturer specified number of piggybacks which you could not do before.
This info is printed on the panel data sheet in the panel.
Not a situation that comes up all that much.
At my prior house, I did use piggyback breakers on occasion after the service panel did fill up with regular size breakers. But, the less that I have to mess with the service panel, the better.
betamax No. This is all about ratios. If the power supply for your DCC system outputs 18VAC at 5A, the ratio is 6.66:1 (120/18). The primary current will be 5 divided by 6.66 or 0.75A. When the voltage goes down the current goes up to maintain the relationship in Volt-Amps. The secondary ouptut in VA at 18V X 5A is 90VA, the primary (120 X 0.75) is also 90VA So you don't need a 20A circuit. A 15A circuit could supply up to 80A easily when you step the voltage down to 18V. Talk to an electrician, they'll be able to tell you what you need. Especially with lighting technologies, the requirements have changed. You may need safety devices as well.
No.
This is all about ratios. If the power supply for your DCC system outputs 18VAC at 5A, the ratio is 6.66:1 (120/18). The primary current will be 5 divided by 6.66 or 0.75A.
When the voltage goes down the current goes up to maintain the relationship in Volt-Amps. The secondary ouptut in VA at 18V X 5A is 90VA, the primary (120 X 0.75) is also 90VA
So you don't need a 20A circuit. A 15A circuit could supply up to 80A easily when you step the voltage down to 18V.
Talk to an electrician, they'll be able to tell you what you need. Especially with lighting technologies, the requirements have changed. You may need safety devices as well.
So, if (bad) Athearn BB locos each draw, say, 2 amps; then my 15 amp outlet/circuit can only handle 7 or 8 locos on my layout.
Right?
Or is an Amp only an Amp depending upon the circumstances. Were talking about 12G wire and DC or DCC power systems.
Its obvious. If the stuff the motor draws is an "Amp", and the stuff that the outlet can handle an "Amp", then 15 / 2 = 7 ish. No?
This is why I never bothered to learn about electricity.
- Douglas
Doughless So, if (bad) Athearn BB locos each draw, say, 2 amps; then my 15 amp outlet/circuit can only handle 7 or 8 locos on my layout. Right? Or is an Amp only an Amp depending upon the circumstances. Were talking about 12G wire and DC or DCC power systems. Its obvious. If the stuff the motor draws is an "Amp", and the stuff that the outlet can handle an "Amp", then 15 / 2 = 7 ish. No? This is why I never bothered to learn about electricity.
So, if you are running locos with 2 amp motors on your layout, and your system is controlled by a 5 amp booster, you would be limited to running two locos at the same time.
Doughless betamax No. This is all about ratios. If the power supply for your DCC system outputs 18VAC at 5A, the ratio is 6.66:1 (120/18). The primary current will be 5 divided by 6.66 or 0.75A. When the voltage goes down the current goes up to maintain the relationship in Volt-Amps. The secondary ouptut in VA at 18V X 5A is 90VA, the primary (120 X 0.75) is also 90VA So you don't need a 20A circuit. A 15A circuit could supply up to 80A easily when you step the voltage down to 18V. Talk to an electrician, they'll be able to tell you what you need. Especially with lighting technologies, the requirements have changed. You may need safety devices as well. So, if (bad) Athearn BB locos each draw, say, 2 amps; then my 15 amp outlet/circuit can only handle 7 or 8 locos on my layout. Right? Or is an Amp only an Amp depending upon the circumstances. Were talking about 12G wire and DC or DCC power systems. Its obvious. If the stuff the motor draws is an "Amp", and the stuff that the outlet can handle an "Amp", then 15 / 2 = 7 ish. No? This is why I never bothered to learn about electricity.
The simple version - volts x amps = watts
Athearn loco = 12 volts x 2 amps = 24 watts
15 amp outlet in your house = 120 volts x 15 amps = 1800 watts
So your 120 volt, 15 amp outlet, stepped down to 12 volts by your power packs will supply 150 amps, enough power for 75 Athearn locos that draw 2 amps.
Or, 300 modern locos that draw less than .5 amps.
It amazes me that we do not have hundreds of house electrical fires everyday in our communities.
Not talking about Model Railroaders, but do-it-yourself homeowners in general.
If you hang out in the electrical department of your local Lowes/Home Depot/Menards, you will hear all kinds of interesting conversations among people buying stuff for projects they should not be attempting.
I cannot recall hearing on the news about a house fire caused by a bad D-I-Y wiring project.
In my friend-circle I have an electrician that has lots of stories about bad D-I-Y projects, but none of them resulted in a fire.
I think the code must be pretty robust if the bones of the system can stop all these morons from killing themselves and their families in a house fire.
Model Railroaders as a group are probably more careful with wiring because we care about the layout, and wiring is already a big part of our hobby.
This house fire in my neighborhood was caused by an idiot trying to hook up big speakers in the trunk of his car.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The simple version - volts x amps = watts Athearn loco = 12 volts x 2 amps = 24 watts 15 amp outlet in your house = 120 volts x 15 amps = 1800 watts So your 120 volt, 15 amp outlet, stepped down to 12 volts by your power packs will supply 150 amps, enough power for 75 Athearn locos that draw 2 amps. Or, 300 modern locos that draw less than .5 amps.
So that means my 15 amp wall outlet can handle devices that can draw 150 amps at the same time. Cool.
As I'm sure you detected, my question was asked tongue partially in cheek since I knew that a typical wall outlet, which I would call 15 amps, would run more than 7 locomotives. In fact, it would run an entire large layout.
My frustration stems from the conversations that occur about electricity.
One amp equals one amp, except for those times when it doesn't.
danno54Usually 20A is just for countertop outlets. Every home I’ve owned had combined outlet and lighting on 15A circuits.
Every home is different, and some have weird wiring features.
In my house there are 4 outlets in the dining room on a 20 Amp circuit. That is all that is on that circuit. What were they expecting to be plugged into those outlets? I am eventually going to have a Keg-erator in the corner, maybe.
Also in my house all of the overhead lights in all the rooms are on one circuit. That means every ceiling fan in the house (except the back porch) share one 15 amp breaker. The television and surround sound system are also on this breaker. It never pops, so I guess it is OK.
My kitchen has four dedicated 20 amp outlets, one each for the refrigerator, microwave (added during remodel), dishwasher, and disposal. The counter outlets are divided into two 20 amp circuits. The outlets on the sink side have a GFCI, and the outlets by the stove & refrigerator do not. Then there is circuit for the stove, and one for lighting. That is a total of EIGHT breakers for the kitchen. I don't know if that is normal or not.
It's not that simple, and it depends on when your houses were each built.
Newest code requires 20A circuits to feed bathrooms, washers, refrigerators, and a list of other stuff separately.
Do you know why electricians are one of the highest paid building trades? Because if it was easy, everyone would do it.
SeeYou190 That is a total of EIGHT breakers for the kitchen. I don't know if that is normal or not.
That is a total of EIGHT breakers for the kitchen. I don't know if that is normal or not.
richhotrain SeeYou190 That is a total of EIGHT breakers for the kitchen. I don't know if that is normal or not. Gottcha beat, Kevin. I have 11 different circuits in the kitchen, and that doesn't include two more in the adjoining pantry. I will enumerated them if you want me to. Rich
Gottcha beat, Kevin. I have 11 different circuits in the kitchen, and that doesn't include two more in the adjoining pantry. I will enumerated them if you want me to.
Modern kitchens in mid range and up housing typically require a dozen or more circuits including lighting.
One current project I am involved in is the renovation of an up scale home of about 3700 sq ft built in the 1980's.
The new kitchen required us to add a 125 amp sub panel for 8 additonal circuits beyond the 4 that we could reuse.
quote. "It's not that simple, and it depends on when your houses were each built.
Sheldon". quote
Actually it was rather simple. Just know the code. I wired my entire cottage from the service entry mast, 200A panel out to the pump house and all in between. Pulled a homeowner’s permit and passed all inspections first time out.
richhotrainGottcha beat, Kevin. I have 11 different circuits in the kitchen,
ATLANTIC CENTRALModern kitchens in mid range and up housing typically require a dozen or more circuits including lighting.
Well, I guess my kitchen (that I thought was overly complex) is actually pretty simple!
What do I know?
As far as typical unfinished basement wiring, its not that complex to add more outlets or lights.
I've lived in three new houses in my life. Each one with a basement, and each one came standard with about three overhead light bulbs and one outlet in each basement room (where the structural wall is in between). You pay the builder more to add more. In the new house we built, I think I paid an extra $50 bucks to have them install one circuit for each room.
Simple weekend warrior stuff is rearranging the light recepticles, adding more recepticles, and adding more outlets. Its not hard to restring the "romex" to where all of the lights are on one circuit and all of the outlets are on another.
That one circuit generally handled anything I would put in the basement. Train layout, TV, local lamps.
Doughless So that means my 15 amp wall outlet can handle devices that can draw 150 amps at the same time. Cool. As I'm sure you detected, my question was asked tongue partially in cheek since I knew that a typical wall outlet, which I would call 15 amps, would run more than 7 locomotives. In fact, it would run an entire large layout. My frustration stems from the conversations that occur about electricity. One amp equals one amp, except for those times when it doesn't.
Well I'm not sure I follow your thinking or your frustration, maybe because I am an engineering type person.
But, for whatever it is worth, the term AMPERE does not exist in a vacuum, it has little context without knowing the working voltage.