I like the idea of replacing the fixed steel shelving with roll out storage under the layout. Having said that, the rollouts have to have space to roll them out to, so that could conflict with the 'fire lane' from the door to the car when you are working under the layout.
Have you thought about backing the car into the garage so you could alter the path of the fire lane? You would have to find a different place to hang the bikes.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Matt,
I am not going to comment on your track plan because I know that track planning is a weak point of mine.
However, I am responding just to say that I am really impressed with the quality of a graph-paper layout plan you were able to put together. It looks well thought out and clearly presented.
My sketches are garbage!
-Kevin
Living the dream.
crossthedogThere's good or bad access to all sides except the town's West edge, where those five feet touch the wall. Otherwise it's open all around, but a tough pinch to get into NW corner viewing spot (that's a climb-under) b/c of heavy semi-permanent steel shelving. There's no easy place to move that to. The space is a half of a 2-car garage. Ish. The whole east side is open to access, but expansion that way is prohibited by a post holding up the house and access to the car.
Okay. So the entire layout is accessible all the way around for derailments, but you're basically gonna want to run the layout from the east side around to the SW side.
Now that I understand the orientation better, the plan makes more sense.
The shape of the layout is really very good given the constraints, IMO.
I would say that if you can access the west side by going under the layout anyway, do you really need access hatches at all?
For correcting derailments, you need to be able to reach 30 inches. It seems to me that you have 30 inch access everywhere without going under except for the those two short spurs in the branch (which really add more clutter than operation, IMO), and that awkward green/orange turnout at 9 oclock.
Do you really need the south side of the orange oval at all? Just make the green line that goes under the town the main line. That would eliminate that hard to reach turnout going into the tunnel at 9 oclock. You have enough open space at 9 oclock to make the under-town curve radius broader, and eliminating the south side of the oval opens up a lot more space to shift some things around.
BTW, tell the captain of the house that if you build layout benchwork at standing height, say 48 inches, you've got plenty of room to build storage shelves underneath the layout. Then you can eliminate the steel shelves and won't ever have to duckunder any where. Just sayin.
- Douglas
Here's a quick 'n' dirty sketch of the space: Orange M&M is in the center of the layout. Path from doorway lower left to back of car upper right is very high foot traffic by people carrying heavy bags of groceries, like a firelane. "Do not park train layouts here."
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
crossthedogI love your layout. Thank you for sharing it. It's wider than mine by 4 inches, yet you have no access holes?
Hi Matt,
I don't have access holes, but I can reach all of the track from the outside except for the trolley track. The trolley will be on an automatic reverser circuit so it will just shuttle back and forth. It is a brass trolley with just two axles so I'm not worried too much about derailments if I get the track right. I may forego using proper trolley track and go with Code 83 flex track to allow more space for the flanges.
As far as working on the layout, I have built it on a rotisserie so I can flip the layout up on its side to get close to the center for laying track and scenery, and I can get at the bottom to install the wiring without having to go under the layout at all. The layout is at 36" so I can operate from a chair. Here is how it works:
Here is a shortened version of how I built the layout benchwork.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/287007.aspx
Maybe the term "too much" is not the right term to use, since it is the OP's layout, and he decides what is too much. But he has asked for input, so here is mine. I am assuming we are talking about an HO layout.
Overall, and in principle, I think it is a simple enough and workable concept with the oval and the branchline in the given space. Here are some considerations.
You indicate that you are ok with a 4% grade on that branchline. In addition, some of that incline goes through sharp curves, so the effective grade in those curves is more like 6.5%. I would recommend that you test the trains that you want to run on those types of inclines. I did, and for my own, similarly sized layout, I have decided that anything over two percent is a no-go. I am running small steam, and maybe with diesels you have a bit more headroom, but I strongly doubt you will have reliable operation on a 4% incline with sharp curves.
My gut tells me that the track configuration for the yard at the bottom is not realistic, if workable track lengths should be maintained in that yard (e.g. for switching, buidling trains, run-around). I read the term "longer freights" in your description, but I don't think it is realistic that this yard would manage anything longer than trains with amaximum of 4-5 40' cars. I also doubt that engine house will fit as drawn in. You should verify workable track lengths either by setting that track configuration up with real pieces of track, or in track planning software, that shows turnouts to scale. Using track plan software will also help you figure out exact grades. Maybe despite conventional wisdom, I believe track planning software is more important when planning a small layout than for a large layout, because you want to make absolutely certain everything really fits as planned before you start building (ask me how I know).
Lastly, I would rethink the industries. The way they are located in the drawing right now appears to just leave space for a small shed by the track in most cases, with little room except for just the building itself. I believe less would be more.
Good luck with building your layout!
Thank you all for such great, specific feedback. Here are some answers and responses. @Douglas There's good or bad access to all sides except the town's West edge, where those five feet touch the wall. Otherwise it's open all around, but a tough pinch to get into NW corner viewing spot (that's a climb-under) b/c of heavy semi-permanent steel shelving. There's no easy place to move that to. The space is a half of a 2-car garage. Ish. The whole east side is open to access, but expansion that way is prohibited by a post holding up the house and access to the car.
DoughlessGive the rivers and creeks new names each time you cross them.
rrebellYour drawing dosen't show the whole space, this is important as sometimes even an inch changes things.
snjroy3) 7 o'clock: I would not bother with a return track for such a short siding.
hon30critter As was mentioned, we don't know what sides you have access to and which sides are up against a wall. I can see the wall on the left. Where are the other walls?
As was mentioned, we don't know what sides you have access to and which sides are up against a wall. I can see the wall on the left. Where are the other walls?
All, thank you SO MUCH for this feedback. Feel free to add more when you wake up in the middle of the night and something about this plan just keeps bugging you.
-Matt
First, I wouldn't worry about whether or not you are trying to do 'too'much'. What consists of 'too much' is very subjective. There are no rules. Its your railroad. If you want to do switching then you need someplace to switch!
You said that you want to do something in the center. My layout is similar in size (5'4"x12'). I have reserved the center of the layout for a city scene but I have been able to add tracks which are closer to the center and which provide lots of switching opportunities. My layout is open on all four sides. If your layout is not open on the right side you still might be able to fit something similar around the access hatches.
Eventually I will have a yard on the upper left which will extend several feet beyong the layout.
I took a quick look at the plan. Four things:
1) The tunnel at 9 o'clock (or south west) will be difficult to access if there are derailments or track maintenance to do. You could make an access window from the other room.
2) Upper level: I would make sure there are no slopes on the yard or the turnout leading to it.
3) 7 o'clock: I would not bother with a return track for such a short siding. Also, plan for reliable and well thought out uncouplers as that track will be difficult to reach.
4) 5 o'clock: those switches look tight - not sure they will fit. For areas that are difficult to reach, I keep things really simple...
Simon
deleted
mbinsewiI think adding any track to the inside space would just clutter it up.
Agreed. If OP bended the branchline more to take up more of the middle, he could swing the town more at 90 degrees and open up the lower corner for lengthier tracks in the lower town. Essentially giving up another switching district in the middle of the plan, that he doesn't need, for better/more space for what he has now.
You are still trying to do too much. Peopl,e that run modern cars and anything passenger are talking larger radius. Your drawing dosen't show the whole space, this is important as sometimes even an inch changes things.
I like it, it kinda reminds of the twice-around.
Too bad you couldn't stretch the length out, so that hidden track with the 18"r. could be strtched into a 22" or 24" radius.
I think adding any track to the inside space would just clutter it up.
If you have access to all sides, maybe use view blocks in the middle.
Mike.
My You Tube
Makes way more sense than your first plan. A simple oval is fine, no need for a complex mainline stuffed into a space. With a small layout, your sense of distance is going to require imagination anyway. If you want the towns to be 5 miles apart, do 5 laps around the oval. If they are 20 miles apart, do twenty laps. Its okay if the scenery repeats itself. Give the rivers and creeks new names each time you cross them.
I like the branch line idea.
Refresh my memory, how many sides do you have access to?
What I would want to do, is to be able to take a train out of the lower yard, head to the main line, do 5 or 50 laps around the oval, then head up the branch line to the other town and deliver/swap out. As it stands, the turnout that heads to the branch requires a backup maneuver to get to the branch line, or, you've got an alternative route but it passes through the town.
To be able to go right from the oval to the branch line, you could put a curved turnout in the oval at 5 oclock so that it connects to the green line, thereby by passing the town. The virginaian used a curved turnout in this manner I think, or used it in a very important place.
The pillars of the layout would be the lower yard, the branch line, and the upper town, all with sufficient radius to run the longest equipment. Maybe that means 26 radius everywhere. Once those three areas are designed properly, with proper radius to handle the equipment and for proper operation, then work on filling in the blanks with other stuff, if you still have room. If you don't have room, then don't force things.
As far as passenger ops. The main town could serve as two towns, A and B, the origination and destination. You could restrict passenger cars to the oval, and run cars from "a" to "b" by doing laps. That way you could keep the radius of the branch line tighter if you had too, and have it be served freight only. Or maybe one old shorty or combine that's been downgraded to branch line service.
Modelers, I need help. I realized my last plan was all big swirly curves, just to get a folded dogbone into this tiny, wacky space. There was no room for switching. I'm just learning about switching operations -- had no clue about runarounds, drill tracks, team tracks, etc. I studied Turtle Creek and the Virginian as some of you suggested (thanks) and after watching some operations videos, I've scrapped the first plan and started over. I've tried to do less here, and it's mostly working, but I'm stuck.
First, here's what's going okay:
1) I replaced my too-clever dogbone mainline with a simple boring oval (in red here); I gotta have continuous run, if only to be able to have the longer freights come in from "somewhere else" to drop a cut of cars, or to back a passenger train into the station in the yard. Mainline radius on the north curve is 24", about 26" on the south curve. I know that passenger cars won't look great but hopefully they won't derail.
2) An extension to the loop (green here) runs west out of the yard under the town, reconnecting to the mainline north of the town. Radius here is 18" so only freights can duck out this way.
3) A siding is in blue at the top of the mainline. This is where non-local trains will drop a cut of cars.
4) The yard (also in blue) is not a must have, but the shape of that lower edge just screams to be filled with parallel stub tracks, so I get a small yard without even trying.
5) The branch (in orange) took a long time to figure out. I wanted to get up out of the oval into the "town" extension at lower left, but I didn't want it to look like a ramp, so I finally decided to go outside, which works well topographically and also because I can come out of the yard and onto the Priest River branch without fouling the main. Grade is close to 4%, but I'm okay with it.
Here's where I need help: I have dead space in the middle of the layout (I know, this is why around-the-walls is superior, but I can't do that here). I'm having trouble figuring out how to get into it efficiently. The access holes can move left to right if necessary but they cannot move up or down along the long axis of the layout without moving stringers (I could do that; rather not).
I'm still unsure about how to design tracks into industries, other than a single track. I've seen drill tracks and runarounds used, but inside the loop it's very tight, especially working around the access holes. Nothing seems to just jump out at me.
Any ideas? Feel free to scribble on my drawing or annotate if you like. Really feeling like I'm close to a viable track plan, but the dead space in the middle is killing me.
Thanks in advance,
Matt
Edit: May not have been clear, when I say I'm trying to get into the middle, I don't mean getting my body in there, I mean getting my trains in there, drawing tracks that use the space efficiently.