Modelers, I need help. I realized my last plan was all big swirly curves, just to get a folded dogbone into this tiny, wacky space. There was no room for switching. I'm just learning about switching operations -- had no clue about runarounds, drill tracks, team tracks, etc. I studied Turtle Creek and the Virginian as some of you suggested (thanks) and after watching some operations videos, I've scrapped the first plan and started over. I've tried to do less here, and it's mostly working, but I'm stuck.
First, here's what's going okay:
1) I replaced my too-clever dogbone mainline with a simple boring oval (in red here); I gotta have continuous run, if only to be able to have the longer freights come in from "somewhere else" to drop a cut of cars, or to back a passenger train into the station in the yard. Mainline radius on the north curve is 24", about 26" on the south curve. I know that passenger cars won't look great but hopefully they won't derail.
2) An extension to the loop (green here) runs west out of the yard under the town, reconnecting to the mainline north of the town. Radius here is 18" so only freights can duck out this way.
3) A siding is in blue at the top of the mainline. This is where non-local trains will drop a cut of cars.
4) The yard (also in blue) is not a must have, but the shape of that lower edge just screams to be filled with parallel stub tracks, so I get a small yard without even trying.
5) The branch (in orange) took a long time to figure out. I wanted to get up out of the oval into the "town" extension at lower left, but I didn't want it to look like a ramp, so I finally decided to go outside, which works well topographically and also because I can come out of the yard and onto the Priest River branch without fouling the main. Grade is close to 4%, but I'm okay with it.
Here's where I need help: I have dead space in the middle of the layout (I know, this is why around-the-walls is superior, but I can't do that here). I'm having trouble figuring out how to get into it efficiently. The access holes can move left to right if necessary but they cannot move up or down along the long axis of the layout without moving stringers (I could do that; rather not).
I'm still unsure about how to design tracks into industries, other than a single track. I've seen drill tracks and runarounds used, but inside the loop it's very tight, especially working around the access holes. Nothing seems to just jump out at me.
Any ideas? Feel free to scribble on my drawing or annotate if you like. Really feeling like I'm close to a viable track plan, but the dead space in the middle is killing me.
Thanks in advance,
Matt
Edit: May not have been clear, when I say I'm trying to get into the middle, I don't mean getting my body in there, I mean getting my trains in there, drawing tracks that use the space efficiently.
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
Makes way more sense than your first plan. A simple oval is fine, no need for a complex mainline stuffed into a space. With a small layout, your sense of distance is going to require imagination anyway. If you want the towns to be 5 miles apart, do 5 laps around the oval. If they are 20 miles apart, do twenty laps. Its okay if the scenery repeats itself. Give the rivers and creeks new names each time you cross them.
I like the branch line idea.
Refresh my memory, how many sides do you have access to?
What I would want to do, is to be able to take a train out of the lower yard, head to the main line, do 5 or 50 laps around the oval, then head up the branch line to the other town and deliver/swap out. As it stands, the turnout that heads to the branch requires a backup maneuver to get to the branch line, or, you've got an alternative route but it passes through the town.
To be able to go right from the oval to the branch line, you could put a curved turnout in the oval at 5 oclock so that it connects to the green line, thereby by passing the town. The virginaian used a curved turnout in this manner I think, or used it in a very important place.
The pillars of the layout would be the lower yard, the branch line, and the upper town, all with sufficient radius to run the longest equipment. Maybe that means 26 radius everywhere. Once those three areas are designed properly, with proper radius to handle the equipment and for proper operation, then work on filling in the blanks with other stuff, if you still have room. If you don't have room, then don't force things.
As far as passenger ops. The main town could serve as two towns, A and B, the origination and destination. You could restrict passenger cars to the oval, and run cars from "a" to "b" by doing laps. That way you could keep the radius of the branch line tighter if you had too, and have it be served freight only. Or maybe one old shorty or combine that's been downgraded to branch line service.
- Douglas
I like it, it kinda reminds of the twice-around.
Too bad you couldn't stretch the length out, so that hidden track with the 18"r. could be strtched into a 22" or 24" radius.
I think adding any track to the inside space would just clutter it up.
If you have access to all sides, maybe use view blocks in the middle.
Mike.
My You Tube
You are still trying to do too much. Peopl,e that run modern cars and anything passenger are talking larger radius. Your drawing dosen't show the whole space, this is important as sometimes even an inch changes things.
mbinsewiI think adding any track to the inside space would just clutter it up.
Agreed. If OP bended the branchline more to take up more of the middle, he could swing the town more at 90 degrees and open up the lower corner for lengthier tracks in the lower town. Essentially giving up another switching district in the middle of the plan, that he doesn't need, for better/more space for what he has now.
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I took a quick look at the plan. Four things:
1) The tunnel at 9 o'clock (or south west) will be difficult to access if there are derailments or track maintenance to do. You could make an access window from the other room.
2) Upper level: I would make sure there are no slopes on the yard or the turnout leading to it.
3) 7 o'clock: I would not bother with a return track for such a short siding. Also, plan for reliable and well thought out uncouplers as that track will be difficult to reach.
4) 5 o'clock: those switches look tight - not sure they will fit. For areas that are difficult to reach, I keep things really simple...
Simon
Hi Matt,
First, I wouldn't worry about whether or not you are trying to do 'too'much'. What consists of 'too much' is very subjective. There are no rules. Its your railroad. If you want to do switching then you need someplace to switch!
As was mentioned, we don't know what sides you have access to and which sides are up against a wall. I can see the wall on the left. Where are the other walls?
You said that you want to do something in the center. My layout is similar in size (5'4"x12'). I have reserved the center of the layout for a city scene but I have been able to add tracks which are closer to the center and which provide lots of switching opportunities. My layout is open on all four sides. If your layout is not open on the right side you still might be able to fit something similar around the access hatches.
Eventually I will have a yard on the upper left which will extend several feet beyong the layout.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Thank you all for such great, specific feedback. Here are some answers and responses. @Douglas There's good or bad access to all sides except the town's West edge, where those five feet touch the wall. Otherwise it's open all around, but a tough pinch to get into NW corner viewing spot (that's a climb-under) b/c of heavy semi-permanent steel shelving. There's no easy place to move that to. The space is a half of a 2-car garage. Ish. The whole east side is open to access, but expansion that way is prohibited by a post holding up the house and access to the car.
DoughlessGive the rivers and creeks new names each time you cross them.
rrebellYour drawing dosen't show the whole space, this is important as sometimes even an inch changes things.
snjroy3) 7 o'clock: I would not bother with a return track for such a short siding.
hon30critter As was mentioned, we don't know what sides you have access to and which sides are up against a wall. I can see the wall on the left. Where are the other walls?
All, thank you SO MUCH for this feedback. Feel free to add more when you wake up in the middle of the night and something about this plan just keeps bugging you.
-Matt
Maybe the term "too much" is not the right term to use, since it is the OP's layout, and he decides what is too much. But he has asked for input, so here is mine. I am assuming we are talking about an HO layout.
Overall, and in principle, I think it is a simple enough and workable concept with the oval and the branchline in the given space. Here are some considerations.
You indicate that you are ok with a 4% grade on that branchline. In addition, some of that incline goes through sharp curves, so the effective grade in those curves is more like 6.5%. I would recommend that you test the trains that you want to run on those types of inclines. I did, and for my own, similarly sized layout, I have decided that anything over two percent is a no-go. I am running small steam, and maybe with diesels you have a bit more headroom, but I strongly doubt you will have reliable operation on a 4% incline with sharp curves.
My gut tells me that the track configuration for the yard at the bottom is not realistic, if workable track lengths should be maintained in that yard (e.g. for switching, buidling trains, run-around). I read the term "longer freights" in your description, but I don't think it is realistic that this yard would manage anything longer than trains with amaximum of 4-5 40' cars. I also doubt that engine house will fit as drawn in. You should verify workable track lengths either by setting that track configuration up with real pieces of track, or in track planning software, that shows turnouts to scale. Using track plan software will also help you figure out exact grades. Maybe despite conventional wisdom, I believe track planning software is more important when planning a small layout than for a large layout, because you want to make absolutely certain everything really fits as planned before you start building (ask me how I know).
Lastly, I would rethink the industries. The way they are located in the drawing right now appears to just leave space for a small shed by the track in most cases, with little room except for just the building itself. I believe less would be more.
Good luck with building your layout!
crossthedogI love your layout. Thank you for sharing it. It's wider than mine by 4 inches, yet you have no access holes?
I don't have access holes, but I can reach all of the track from the outside except for the trolley track. The trolley will be on an automatic reverser circuit so it will just shuttle back and forth. It is a brass trolley with just two axles so I'm not worried too much about derailments if I get the track right. I may forego using proper trolley track and go with Code 83 flex track to allow more space for the flanges.
As far as working on the layout, I have built it on a rotisserie so I can flip the layout up on its side to get close to the center for laying track and scenery, and I can get at the bottom to install the wiring without having to go under the layout at all. The layout is at 36" so I can operate from a chair. Here is how it works:
Here is a shortened version of how I built the layout benchwork.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/287007.aspx
Here's a quick 'n' dirty sketch of the space: Orange M&M is in the center of the layout. Path from doorway lower left to back of car upper right is very high foot traffic by people carrying heavy bags of groceries, like a firelane. "Do not park train layouts here."
crossthedogThere's good or bad access to all sides except the town's West edge, where those five feet touch the wall. Otherwise it's open all around, but a tough pinch to get into NW corner viewing spot (that's a climb-under) b/c of heavy semi-permanent steel shelving. There's no easy place to move that to. The space is a half of a 2-car garage. Ish. The whole east side is open to access, but expansion that way is prohibited by a post holding up the house and access to the car.
Okay. So the entire layout is accessible all the way around for derailments, but you're basically gonna want to run the layout from the east side around to the SW side.
Now that I understand the orientation better, the plan makes more sense.
The shape of the layout is really very good given the constraints, IMO.
I would say that if you can access the west side by going under the layout anyway, do you really need access hatches at all?
For correcting derailments, you need to be able to reach 30 inches. It seems to me that you have 30 inch access everywhere without going under except for the those two short spurs in the branch (which really add more clutter than operation, IMO), and that awkward green/orange turnout at 9 oclock.
Do you really need the south side of the orange oval at all? Just make the green line that goes under the town the main line. That would eliminate that hard to reach turnout going into the tunnel at 9 oclock. You have enough open space at 9 oclock to make the under-town curve radius broader, and eliminating the south side of the oval opens up a lot more space to shift some things around.
BTW, tell the captain of the house that if you build layout benchwork at standing height, say 48 inches, you've got plenty of room to build storage shelves underneath the layout. Then you can eliminate the steel shelves and won't ever have to duckunder any where. Just sayin.
Matt,
I am not going to comment on your track plan because I know that track planning is a weak point of mine.
However, I am responding just to say that I am really impressed with the quality of a graph-paper layout plan you were able to put together. It looks well thought out and clearly presented.
My sketches are garbage!
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I like the idea of replacing the fixed steel shelving with roll out storage under the layout. Having said that, the rollouts have to have space to roll them out to, so that could conflict with the 'fire lane' from the door to the car when you are working under the layout.
Have you thought about backing the car into the garage so you could alter the path of the fire lane? You would have to find a different place to hang the bikes.
Swisstrain,
swisstrainBut he has asked for input, so here is mine.
Dave, that rotisserie is just plain awesome.
hon30critterHave you thought about backing the car into the garage so you could alter the path of the fire lane?
I would can the steel shelves and park the car on the other side. That would open up a whole lotta space.
A Subaru Forrester is not a long Chevy Suburban. The wife should be able to park it in the slot closer to the door and still have room to walk in front of it to get to the house. Where the shelves are, should not effect the car much. Maybe that's not an option.
Since you're thinking about train length, blocks of cars, and operations; the rule is that your shortest runaround should accomodate the longest cut of cars you plan to run around. Time to take precise measurements and do some math.
On a small layout where you want to run around a 7 car cut, that runaround is probably going to take up more space than you want it to, limiting other spurs and scenery items. Its okay to consider shorter total train lengths, and to runaround a cut half that length. There are plenty of pics in the 1940's and 50's showing trains of 7 or 8 cars.
I would keep the yard outside of the curve. The yard tracks will be longer and it simply looks better, IMO. Take them all the way to edge and it gives the impression the yard keeps going. An extra 2 inches might make the difference in having a 3 car or a 4 car cut. I would gain radius under the town by eating into the space at 9 oclock.
If you can find a way to bend the branchline more to bring the turnouts and uncoupling function more to the south or the east, within reach from the front, that would make things a easier to operate and to fix derailments. Understanding that you dont want to take up a lot of the middle of the layout with the branch line.
You're probably going to have to occupy the main to do a lot of the switching. That's okay, its a small layout. But there are times when you can add a parallel track in certain spots and it won't clutter things up.
Looking at the tunnel, and back of the enveloppe math about the height of your second level, I still think access will be a challenge for derailments, cleaning track and fixing things. Our club has a passage like that, and it's a bit of a nightmare... for the return track, I meant the blue one, south-west. Have you thought of putting your station on the mainline?
Do you mind me asking where you live?
Sorry if I missed it in one of your posts.
Down here, garage layouts seem like a good idea because we have no basements, but often the incredible heat six months out of the year causes problems.
I love this. Guys safely bunkered away across the Continental Divide instructing me in what to tell my spouse about her home management operations. Now that we've had a good laugh, let's be serious about the space I have available to me.@Douglas,Douglas, I'm really appreciating your specifics about car length and runarounds, etc. That helps me imagine what I can do with less, and maybe more importantly, what I can live without. I do agree with you that the yard looks and "feels" best where I have it, outside the loop, angled along the edge. There's 8 feet there minus the curve getting into it, and my attempts to put that inside the loop have seemed clumsy, where this position feels "organic". I'm now drafting a widened radius on what you christened the Undertown Tunnel to make that the mainline.@Simon, I was confused which runaround you meant because the yard is the easiest place to reach on the whole plan, where it is now.
snjroyLooking at the tunnel, and ...the height of your second level, I still think access will be a challenge for derailments, cleaning track and fixing things.
LastspikemikeWe also use a long section of mainline as the yard lead, also highly sneaky and not prototypical. But the first rule of model railroading is the same for any form of fiction be it theatre or novels: suspension of disbelief. If it is imagined to be real that's real enough.
LastspikemikeOn our layout we were actually able to connect the "far end" of each of our yard sidings into pairs with Atlas Code 83 double curved turnouts creating switcher runarounds off the curved end of each siding while allowing the tails of those runarounds to serve as siding capacity when not needing to runaround. We had enough length but not enough width so we ran four into three into two into one using a Wye and two double curve turnouts.
Very grateful for all the careful attention to this plan, guys.
crossthedogI love this. Guys safely bunkered away across the Continental Divide instructing me in what to tell my spouse about her home management operations. Now that we've had a good laugh, let's be serious about the space I have available to me. @Douglas, Douglas, I'm really appreciating your specifics about car length and runarounds, etc. That helps me imagine what I can do with less, and maybe more importantly, what I can live without. I do agree with you that the yard looks and "feels" best where I have it, outside the loop, angled along the edge. There's 8 feet there minus the curve getting into it, and my attempts to put that inside the loop have seemed clumsy, where this position feels "organic". I'm now drafting a widened radius on what you christened the Undertown Tunnel to make that the mainline.
Understanding that your garage sketch is not to scale, if you could shove the NE corner of the layout right about 12 inches....rotate the benchwork so to speak...and narrow the top of the layout that holds both the oval and branchline curves (by slightly redesigning the branchline), which might gain another 4 inches, you could open up the access past the shelves by another 16 inches.
Added to the space that's already there, it might be enough room to have walkaround access on three sides, so you could make the layout an actual three sided plan. If the branch line town was concealed by a backdrop from the lower yard, where you walked around the layout to view it, that would give you a greater sense of distance traveled. It could be, say, 30 inches deep; leaving you with a generous 30 inch deep lower level for more track,buildings, or scenery.
A view block takes up only 1/4 inch of linear benchwork space.
Maybe lay the footprint of the layout out on the floor with masking/blue tape. Cheat that corner 12 inches closer to the Subaru. Then bring your wife out for approval....innocently pretending that's what she agreed to.....
And I would try hard to make the yard abutt the wall/backdrop. Tracks that dive into a pure blank blue wall tend to give the impression of continuing into infinity. Makes the scene and the whole layout feel bigger and less confined, IMO.
Doughless if you could shove the NE corner of the layout right about 12 inches....rotate the benchwork so to speak...and narrow the top of the layout that holds both the oval and branchline curves (by slightly redesigning the branchline), which might gain another 4 inches, you could open up the access past the shelves by another 16 inches. Added to the space that's already there, it might be enough room to have walkaround access on three sides, so you could make the layout an actual three sided plan.
This is actually doable. It would mean some wasted lumber -- I've already screwed four 1x4x8 stringers to a ledger on the wall at the town edge, so rotating would mean that three of these four would not be long enough, but that's not a crisis.
And I've been seriously considering view blocks since the beginning. It's worth consideration.
Also, all joshing aside, my wife is extremely supportive and accommodating about all of this. It less a matter of my being in the doghouse and more a matter of not wanting to make her life more difficult.
crossthedogAlso, all joshing aside, my wife is extremely supportive and accommodating about all of this. It less a matter of my being in the doghouse and more a matter of not wanting to make her life more difficult.
I'm glad to hear that your wife supports your interest in the hobby. My wife is very supportive too. In fact, she is so supportive that she has given up any hope of ever seeing our van in the garage! Seriously, the van wouldn't fit anyhow but she has been quite willing to let me take up half of the garage with my layout, and she is even willing to allow me to add a yard that will intrude into the other half of the garage in the future.
crossthedog@Kevin, I'm in Seattle. "Incredible heat" only happens in July and August here if at all; it's more likely the "incredible cold" eight months of the year, not a severe cold but more a creeping damp chill if you're standing still in a basement or garage, makes you want to go upstairs by the fire with a cuppa, read about other people's layouts.
My middle daughter lives in Seattle. She is having a custom house built right now.
She wanted air conditioning, but the building loan would not cover it because central forced air cooling does not add any value to a house in Seattle. She had to pay the HVAC contractor in cash to get AC installed! Interestingly, the AC system is completely independent of the heating system.
Anyway... I am not sure what special concerns you would have building in a garage in Seattle where temperatures would reach substantial differentials.
That would be a subject for a new thread.
crossthedog I've already screwed four 1x4x8 stringers to a ledger on the wall at the town edge, so rotating would mean that three of these four would not be long enough, but that's not a crisis.
You don't have to change that. I didn't mean to actually rotate the benchwork away from the wall, just redesign the peninsula so 10 oclock through 2 oclock angles right a little more if you still have the space for car doors.
Also, you can curve the benchwork around the shelving corner. More complicated carpentry, but there is nothing that says you have to have straight edges there.
To serve your South passenger station, you will need to back up your loco to go back on the mainline. If you put your station on the main, where what seems to be a water tower, you won't need to do that. You could also install some turnouts to allow another train to go around the passenger train while it sits at the station.
Putting the yard inside to loop is unpleasing to the eye. It also limits the size of the yard, access, and location of the lead track. It is a necessity on a 4 by 8 HO layout, but you do not have that limitation.
I would suggest keeping the yard outside the loop.
My yard was inside the loop on my original N scale layout in high school. It did not take me long to figure out all the advantages of relocating it.
OP could work in a drill track/yard lead along the right edge of the layout. That could allow him to break up and make up trains as another train orbits the layout.
I appreciate the different views expressed on the best location of the yard relative to the mainline loop. I've tried several times to draw up a plan with the yard on the inside of the loop. In the end, my real complaint is that if the yard has any length then it has to curl with the loop curves at one end, and so do any sidings and spurs. All those tracks curving together makes the layout start to look like a lot of concentric circles, like a cross section of a fir tree. I like the way the yard at the bottom gives it an orthogonal look, lends the layout a feeling of variety and angularity, and the loop looks less dominant rather than more. Plus, the branch coming off of the yard lead just seems to work right. It makes the yard work as a kind of interchange. @LastspikemikeSeems I could learn a lot from your layout. It sounds like you planned well. If you ever get photo posting capability I'd love to see it. As for my passenger station, I'm still not exactly sure where I want to put it. I might be okay putting a small station on the mainline for quick stops, and I do like the idea of a passing siding that serves as a runaround. @KevinSeattle doesn't have a huge temperature differential. A cold summer day is like a warm winter day. And yeah, I grew up here and never knew what air conditioning was until I went to California. Our air is conditioned by the Pacific Ocean and the coastal ranges. Also, as noted above, I agree with you about the yard looking better outside the loop in my case.@DouglasGreat minds. Even before your suggestion about shifting track to the right at the north end, I was planning to curve the corner of the layout by the shelves, simply because the layout extends north far enough to somewhat impede access to them. But what exactly is a drill track? I mean how is it different from a siding?
Thanks again all for your input. It's been instructive.