richhotrain I worry that it will look like a cave And wots wrong with a cave!!!
richhotrain I worry that it will look like a cave
Rich
Alton Junction
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
York1 ATLANTIC CENTRAL John mentioned insulation and egress windows, all code here as well for new construction. Not required on existing properties unless you do some crazy total rebuild remodel. I realize I'm getting pretty far off-topic here, and I've mentioned it before... Two years ago the house behind me caught fire. Two young girls were sleeping in a basement bedroom, and had to get out. They got out safely, but that scared me. We have all our grandkids sleeping in the basement when they're here. So we paid to have egress windows put into each of the bedrooms. Hopefully, they'll never be used. But they do let in nice daytime light, making it seem a little less basement-y. Sheldon, you are fortunate to have such a huge area for the layout.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL John mentioned insulation and egress windows, all code here as well for new construction. Not required on existing properties unless you do some crazy total rebuild remodel.
I realize I'm getting pretty far off-topic here, and I've mentioned it before...
Two years ago the house behind me caught fire. Two young girls were sleeping in a basement bedroom, and had to get out.
They got out safely, but that scared me. We have all our grandkids sleeping in the basement when they're here. So we paid to have egress windows put into each of the bedrooms. Hopefully, they'll never be used.
But they do let in nice daytime light, making it seem a little less basement-y.
Sheldon, you are fortunate to have such a huge area for the layout.
Well, John, it's my thread, and unlike some others on this forum, I allow "conversations" in my threads, so no worries.
Yes, if people are going to sleep in basements, proper egress is a must have. I am a residential designer, my father was, and my son is a firefighter. I understand that well.
I don't know how much you have followed my posts, I surely don't think everybody cares about my business. The house we are in now is our retirement spot. Not too big, not too small, brick rancher on 2.3 acres. I get the whole basement, and a detached garage when I get around to building it.
Our previous house was a large 1901 Queen Anne style house that the wife and I completely restored 26 years ago.
At that property my train room was a 1000 sq foot space above a large detached garage/workshop.
While that was nice, the new space is about 1500 sq ft.
We had a plan, it took us a while to find the right house. We wanted less house, on more land, with one floor living since my wife has rheumatoid arthritis, and a train room equal to or larger than the previous one.
Moving, selling the other house, and taking care of some other personal business has taken longer than planned, but it is all coming together now.
As soon as I finish up this bathroom remodel, layout construction begins. We knew when we bought this house we would make a few small changes and that it would involve updating all the plumbing - not a big job for me - its what I do.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALJohn mentioned insulation and egress windows, all code here as well for new construction. Not required on existing properties unless you do some crazy total rebuild remodel.
York1 John
For those reading this who may not have seen these pictures in my other thread, a few shots of the basement, virtually all of which is the new layout space.
These pictures were taken right as we were moving in. I am currently remodeling a bathroom upstairs and replacing the plumbing in the basement (the house is a rancher, so all the plumbing is effectively in the basement) before I begin working on the layout.
Yesterday I completed a large section of the plumbing work, which also includes adding a laundry sink in the basement in what will be my shop area.
The big wooden workbenches came with house, mostly already gone.
Nobody said drop ceilings look good, they are just functional for maintenance.
My basement walls and floor are painted, and will likely get a fresh coat as layout work progresses around the room. Not that you will see much of the walls.......
John mentioned insulation and egress windows, all code here as well for new construction. Not required on existing properties unless you do some crazy total rebuild remodel.
My entire basement, all sides, is only about 1' out of the ground. It is cozy warm without any insulation, well it was about 68 degrees yesterday with an outside temperature of 25.
There is no direct heating or cooling, just a little heat from the boiler pipes. It stays in the high 60's all year round.
I guess my big thing now is to make up my mind about this lighting thing.
Since we don't have kids at home anymore, my layout is in what used to be a mainfloor bedroom.
Once or twice a year, all our kids and grandkids reunite here. So years ago, I put three bedrooms, a bathroom, and a storage room into the basement. That meant when I decided to take up the railroad hobby, the basement couldn't be used (said the house's boss).
Our building codes require basements to be insulated, so our basement walls have insulation covered with sheetrock. Since we put in egress windows in each of the rooms, the basement rooms no longer have that basement "feel".
If I didn't have that situation, I would not have finished the ceiling, and I would have a huge area for a layout. As it is, the storage room has so much junk in it that I couldn't squeeze an N scale caboose in there, let alone a layout.
I like the look of the ceiling painted black.
I have flourescent fixture style LED lighting hanging from the joist. I like that painted black look.
Our sub floor is also diagonal t&g boards, which, were used to form the basement, easy to tell from the concrete staining.
From Pinerest, not my basement.
Mike.
My You Tube
Doughless We drywalled our basement ceiling back in Indiana. It limits the access to the ceiling infrastructure. I'll never do that again.
We drywalled our basement ceiling back in Indiana. It limits the access to the ceiling infrastructure. I'll never do that again.
richhotrain Doughless Personally, I don't like the look of the white squares and metal grids anyway. I agree. Except for high end materials which can be quite expensive, a lot of drop ceilings with metal grids can have a somewhat dreary look. An alternative option is to drywall the ceiling which looks a lot better. If wiring or conduit is in the way, install fir strips and lower the drywall ceiling an inch or two. If local codes require access to stuff above the drywall ceiling, blank plates can be added for access. Rich
Doughless Personally, I don't like the look of the white squares and metal grids anyway.
Personally, I don't like the look of the white squares and metal grids anyway.
I agree. Except for high end materials which can be quite expensive, a lot of drop ceilings with metal grids can have a somewhat dreary look.
An alternative option is to drywall the ceiling which looks a lot better. If wiring or conduit is in the way, install fir strips and lower the drywall ceiling an inch or two. If local codes require access to stuff above the drywall ceiling, blank plates can be added for access.
- Douglas
Doughless Concrete walls and floors create dust. Painting them keeps it down.
Concrete walls and floors create dust. Painting them keeps it down.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL I actually like the black "space" above the lights with the open joists, but in my situation it is a non starter for two reasons. The construction professional in me is not comfortable painting wires, junction boxes, heating and plumbing pipes (we have hot water baseboard heat), dryer vent lines, etc. And, my house was built in 1964, the sub flooring is diagonal planks, not plywood. So some level of dust is more of an issue. Sheldon, I see that we were replying to Douglas at the same time. Like you, I cannot bring myself to paint wires (conduit in my case), junction boxes, heating and plumbing pipes. I forgot to reply to Douglas on the issue of dust. "Some feel that dust is a problem, but I never noticed it". Really? On my layout, dust is my weathering. LOL. Dust is unavoidable and it spreads all over the house and basement thanks to central heat and air circulation. I'll tell you what else finds its way onto the basement layout - - wood chips and shavings. Say what? Yep, all those nails that were used to lay hardwood flooring on the first floor created tiny wood chips that fell onto the ductwork and conduit. Over time, in my case now going on 22 years, those wood chips make their way down to the layout. Too late now to vacuum on top of the duct work and conduit, so I have just learned to live with it. Before I take any photos of my layout, I have to dust and vacuum. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I actually like the black "space" above the lights with the open joists, but in my situation it is a non starter for two reasons. The construction professional in me is not comfortable painting wires, junction boxes, heating and plumbing pipes (we have hot water baseboard heat), dryer vent lines, etc. And, my house was built in 1964, the sub flooring is diagonal planks, not plywood. So some level of dust is more of an issue.
The construction professional in me is not comfortable painting wires, junction boxes, heating and plumbing pipes (we have hot water baseboard heat), dryer vent lines, etc.
And, my house was built in 1964, the sub flooring is diagonal planks, not plywood. So some level of dust is more of an issue.
Sheldon, I see that we were replying to Douglas at the same time. Like you, I cannot bring myself to paint wires (conduit in my case), junction boxes, heating and plumbing pipes.
I forgot to reply to Douglas on the issue of dust. "Some feel that dust is a problem, but I never noticed it". Really? On my layout, dust is my weathering. LOL.
Dust is unavoidable and it spreads all over the house and basement thanks to central heat and air circulation. I'll tell you what else finds its way onto the basement layout - - wood chips and shavings.
Say what? Yep, all those nails that were used to lay hardwood flooring on the first floor created tiny wood chips that fell onto the ductwork and conduit. Over time, in my case now going on 22 years, those wood chips make their way down to the layout.
Too late now to vacuum on top of the duct work and conduit, so I have just learned to live with it. Before I take any photos of my layout, I have to dust and vacuum.
I meant dust generated by the ceiling itself. I don't know if Sheldon was planning to rewire the ceiling when he hard wired in the lights, but when I did mine all of the wires and boxes were disconnected, hanging, with the circuits shut off. A good time to sweep, power wash, or vacuum if I was to actually paint mine.
Then wash the floor. Push it down the drain or sump pump if it not too chunky. IOW, prep work. Removing all of that initial dust keeps it from getting churned up. Concrete walls and floors create dust. Painting them keeps it down.
I can see where Sheldon's diagonal plank flooring might change the options.
richhotrain Doughless I'm in the minority, but with basements that are not intended to be comfortable living spaces, I prefer no ceiling materials at all. Paint the whole thing black and forget the hassles and shallowness. Some feel that dust is a problem, but I never noticed it. Dropping lights off of the joists tends to reflect the light downwards, making the black ceiling disappear into the abyss of the shadows. Sure, you can see it if you look at it, but nobody focuses on the ceiling when they're working on the layout. Douglas, I'm not sure that I totally agree with you, but my wife sure does. Before I added the recessed can fixtures, my wife all but begged me to paint (or spray paint) the joists and the underside of the first floor subflooring. Her two color preferences were black or white. I demurred. Where I mildly disagree with you is your statement that basements are not intended to be comfortable living spaces. I get your point, and I am not at all sure why basements were created in the first place. However, when I think back to my grandparents home, the basement contained a large coal burning furnace and an attached basement room where coal was dumped through a large window. Nowadays, a lot of new homes, especially higher end homes are built complete with lavish finished basements that rival the nicest first floor great rooms and family rooms. Here in the Chicago area, basements are made of poured concrete and are almost always air conditioned and heated with duct work and vents coming off the furnace. Unfinished basements are always somewhat dark at the outset with hanging pull chain fixtures holding 60 watt incandescent lights every 12 to 20 feet or so. But, unfinished basements are dry, and they scream for layouts in the case of model railroaders. Rich
Doughless I'm in the minority, but with basements that are not intended to be comfortable living spaces, I prefer no ceiling materials at all. Paint the whole thing black and forget the hassles and shallowness. Some feel that dust is a problem, but I never noticed it. Dropping lights off of the joists tends to reflect the light downwards, making the black ceiling disappear into the abyss of the shadows. Sure, you can see it if you look at it, but nobody focuses on the ceiling when they're working on the layout.
I'm in the minority, but with basements that are not intended to be comfortable living spaces, I prefer no ceiling materials at all. Paint the whole thing black and forget the hassles and shallowness. Some feel that dust is a problem, but I never noticed it.
Dropping lights off of the joists tends to reflect the light downwards, making the black ceiling disappear into the abyss of the shadows. Sure, you can see it if you look at it, but nobody focuses on the ceiling when they're working on the layout.
Douglas, I'm not sure that I totally agree with you, but my wife sure does. Before I added the recessed can fixtures, my wife all but begged me to paint (or spray paint) the joists and the underside of the first floor subflooring. Her two color preferences were black or white. I demurred.
Where I mildly disagree with you is your statement that basements are not intended to be comfortable living spaces. I get your point, and I am not at all sure why basements were created in the first place. However, when I think back to my grandparents home, the basement contained a large coal burning furnace and an attached basement room where coal was dumped through a large window.
Nowadays, a lot of new homes, especially higher end homes are built complete with lavish finished basements that rival the nicest first floor great rooms and family rooms.
Here in the Chicago area, basements are made of poured concrete and are almost always air conditioned and heated with duct work and vents coming off the furnace. Unfinished basements are always somewhat dark at the outset with hanging pull chain fixtures holding 60 watt incandescent lights every 12 to 20 feet or so. But, unfinished basements are dry, and they scream for layouts in the case of model railroaders.
I meant in the basements where the homeowner is choosing to not make them living spaces. Not saying that all basements shouldn't be living spaces.
Having said that, that pic looks like a pretty comfortable place even with the unfinished ceiling.
Its a trade off. Personally, I don't like the look of the white squares and metal grids anyway.
But we're talking layout rooms and what makes the most sense for that is what matters.
Doughless I'm in the minority, but with basements that are not intended to be comfortable living spaces, I prefer no ceiling materials at all. Paint the whole thing black and forget the hassles and shallowness. Some feel that dust is a problem, but I never noticed it. Dropping lights off of the joists tends to reflect the light downwards, making the black ceiling disappear into the abyss of the shadows. Sure, you can see it if you look at it, but nobody focuses on the ceiling when they're working on the layout. I use tube shaped LED lighting. Some hard wired individually and others chained together based upon location.
I use tube shaped LED lighting. Some hard wired individually and others chained together based upon location.
I actually like the black "space" above the lights with the open joists, but in my situation it is a non starter for two reasons.
Personally, I think this is a cool basement (please ignore the political theme of the pic)
I should add that the installation of those 53 recessed cans with LED floodlights has made a remarkable difference in my basement in general and over the layout in particular. Those recessed cans are spaced approximately 6 feet apart and the overlapping light pattern ensures that there are no shadows or dark spots.
I know that a lot of guys add LED strip lighting above their layouts as well, but in terms of basic lighting, I could not be happier with the installation of recessed cans with LED floodlights to illuminate the entire space.
Rich,
Yes, I am familiar with those crazy strict electrical codes where you are.
My 1964 basement is also a lttle shallow, as was the practice here back then.
Today most new homes here are done with much deeper basements and many are fully or partly finished living space from the start.
I am still considering all my options, but access is a must even here. I too have pipes, valves for baseboard heat, junction boxes and more that may one day require access.
I am replaceing all the 1964 plumbing before starting the layout, did a big section of it yesterday.
More later,
I just read through this entire thread for the first time. Some very interesting stuff here.
When we built our new home back in 1999, the builder suggested that we consider deepining the basement by another foot. I declined and to this day I have regretted that decision. Our basement measures 92" from the floor to the bottom of the ceiling joists. It could have been 104" deep. The basement remains unfinished and if I ever install a drop ceiling I worry that it will look like a cave. An 88" high ceiling is pretty low, and our basement is 2,000 square feet.
When we moved in, there were 7 bare bulb fixtures with pull chain on/off controls across the entire basement. It was depressing to even walk down there. When I built my first layout in 2004, I used up about 1/3 of the available space and added 11 fluorescent fixtures, each measuring 48" long around the layout. That, of course, was the brightest spot in the basement.
When I built my new layout, started in 2018, I began by installing 53 recessed can fixtures with LED floodlights inside the ceiling joists. But, I decided not to install a drop ceiling. Now, I wish I did.
I am intrigued with John's installation and what I find most interesting is the "tilt" feature of the framework to install and remove tiles. Living in the Chicago area, all of our wiring must be installed inside thin wall conduit. I actually like the conduit requirement because it is easy to access the wiring, if need be, as opposed to Romex.
But the use of conduit requires access to junction boxes that are mounted up against the ceiling joists. So, suspended ceilings require removable ceiling panels to gain access to ceiling mounted junction boxes. That "tilt" solution would be ideal to secure access.
I need to seriously consider the system that John has used. With my recessed can fixtures in place, it wouldn't be that difficult to install his system as opposed to a drop down ceiling that would lose even more space between the ceiling and the floor of the basement.
One last thought for anyone unfamiliar with conduit. It is easy to conceal conduit up between the ceiling joists when joining between recessed can lights, and flexible BX is permitted for 6' runs or less in length.
But the main runs of conduit that run across the basement ceiling from the service panel to reach the upper floors of the house must be secured to the underside of the ceiling joists. This poses a problem with drop ceilings or even with the "tilt" system.
What I mean by that is that the framework cannot be attached directly to the underside of the ceiling joists but must be attached to firring strips that encase the conduit. Problems, problems, problems.
Thanks guys for all the responses, gave me some ideas and some research to do.
I will post any updates as things progress.
My basement has like 8' ceilings, so hanging the grid down below the cupport column didn't really cost anything.
The LED lights I have, both the 2x4 and 2x2 panel, fit int he grid channels just like the old fluorescent ones, or more like a standard tile. They are barely thicker than standard ceiling tiles, so they shoudl work fine with the shallow grids.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
riogrande5761The problem with mounting the grid right on the joists would be how would you insert the tiles. Maybe insert them as you build the grid? But if you need to pop any out, they wouldn't be able to lift up and angle back out through the square grid space.
The ceiling mount system I used has flexible runners, that tilt to install or remove the tiles. I recently needed to put in a wall outlet and had to remove some tiles to run the Romex. It was not as easy as a suspended ceiling, but it wasn't that difficult. One piece snaps out, and the rest of the runners tilt to remove the tiles.
Like I said earlier, I'm not a builder, but I was happy with the result. The system probably is not for everyone.
ATLANTIC CENTRALYes, I am leaning toward that system for most of the ceiling. Just considering how to mount lights? And what kind of lights to use? Sheldon
Yeah, I don't have an answer for that. I put can lights in that went between the joists. The three basement rooms are bedrooms, and didn't need flat panel lights.
If you do figure out what to do, I'd appreciate hearing about it.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI would rather not loose 3"-4" of ceiling height for a conventional grid system.
doctorwayneAdding a conventional drop ceiling, where there's nothing hanging below the bottom of the joists, needs the framework to be only 1/2" (the same as the thickness of the drop-in tiles) below the bottom edge of the joists....
I did one like that for a brother-in-law, as his basement had a fairly low ceiling.
The thin LEDs, which I mentioned earlier, could easily be installed in those tiles, as they're only 1/2" deep too.
Wayne
Ah ok. I haven't seen that or how it works. I did conventional grid drop ceiling and am happy with the height even with the cost of the space above it.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
If you look a John's post at the beginning of the thread you will see in the video the kind of grid system that mounts directly to the floor joists.
I would rather not loose 3"-4" of ceiling height for a conventional grid system.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL riogrande5761 I chose to install 16 LED 2x2 4k temp flat panel lights with a dimmer. Lights up the room very well. Ceiling height is about 7' 8". I like that, and the similar suggestions from others. Thinking about how to make that work with the low profile drop ceiling grid mounted right on the floor joists? And in a perfect world, install the lights first, then the ceiling. Guess I need to look close at some of these lights and learn how they work mounting wise. Putting drywall on the ceiling is a non starter for several reasons. Access is desired for house maintenance, and some layout wiring needs to go up there to bridge lift out sections and feed display panels that show train locations. Sheldon
riogrande5761 I chose to install 16 LED 2x2 4k temp flat panel lights with a dimmer. Lights up the room very well. Ceiling height is about 7' 8".
I chose to install 16 LED 2x2 4k temp flat panel lights with a dimmer. Lights up the room very well. Ceiling height is about 7' 8".
I like that, and the similar suggestions from others. Thinking about how to make that work with the low profile drop ceiling grid mounted right on the floor joists?
And in a perfect world, install the lights first, then the ceiling.
Guess I need to look close at some of these lights and learn how they work mounting wise.
Putting drywall on the ceiling is a non starter for several reasons. Access is desired for house maintenance, and some layout wiring needs to go up there to bridge lift out sections and feed display panels that show train locations.
The problem with mounting the grid right on the joists would be how would you insert the tiles. Maybe insert them as you build the grid? But if you need to pop any out, they wouldn't be able to lift up and angle back out through the square grid space.
The way my 2x2 LED panels went in was basically the same way a ceiling tile goes in - angle them up over the grid and then rotate and drop in place. The LED panel is about as thin as a ceiling tile except for a small control box on the top. Code in my county required they have hanger wires to hold them up if the grid ever fell for any reason. I didn't know that until the inspector came.
Two of the things that didn't pass were the lack of hanger wires for the LED lights, and the wire I used to suspend the ceiling was too thin (Lowes sells thin wire and advertises it as suspended ceiling grid wire but also a much thicker wire. Turns out the thicker wire was what the country required. I replaced the suspension wire and added the hanger wire and the county passed the basement.
I installed my own drop ceiling and the space above the grid is pretty tight, around 3 1/2 inches IIRC. Between the thick code require hanging wire and the limited space between the joists, getting the ceiling tiles was a pain but I wanted the drop ceiling to be as high as possible and also to be nearly even with the tops of the basement windows.
This room is part of the basement but my wifes' lounge after I am finished most of the wood cutting.
I spread the 16 panels evenly throughout the 15x33 space and it seems evenly lit