So the layout plan is published, and the home improvement projects moving along, I'm starting to think about what kind of lighting to use for the layout.
Ceiling height is aprox 7'-8", layout height will vary between 38" and 50". Main yard height at 42".
Scenes are deep, 3' to 5', and aisles are wide, mostly 4'.
Your thoughts on ceiling materials and lighting are welcomed, although pretty sure I will do some sort of drop ceiling.
Sheldon
I will be watching this with interest.
The one thing I will pay more attention to next time is making sure the lighting does not cast shadows on the layout. I'll have things covered from all directions. I enjoy taking photos of the layout as it helps me see where scenes can be improved. Even when I am not taking pics, the shadows still jump out at me.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Sheldon, I know you have a lot of building experience, and I don't, so take this with a grain of salt.
My basement had 7'9" from the floor to the bottom of the main floor joists. I wanted a ceiling, but I didn't want to lose even several inches.
I decided to try CeilingMax that I got at Menards. I know HD has it, too. It's a ceiling system similar to a suspended ceiling, but it mounts flush onto the floor joists. I wasn't sure at the time, but once I tried it, I was won over.
I've got an entire basement with a nice looking ceiling, access to pipes and wires, and I lost about 1" of height.
York1 John
I believe in dimmers for my train room lighting. I use a lot of layout lighting for structures and streetlights, so I run my trains a lot in low-level lighting. At the same time, I like to have lots of light available for when I'm working on the layout.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I have a drywall ceiling with surface-mounted flat panel LED lighting. I have a train room that is 9' X 24'. It has four 2X2' LED flat panels spread more or less evenly, and it's quite bright, very little sharp shadowing. If I want shadows, say for realistic imagery, I would use halogen side lighting or something like that that is direct.
Adding a conventional drop ceiling, where there's nothing hanging below the bottom of the joists, needs the framework to be only 1/2" (the same as the thickness of the drop-in tiles) below the bottom edge of the joists.I have two fairly deep steel beams running from the front of the basement to the rear, and those set the drop ceiling's height at 81.25".I used 20 4' twin-tube fluorescent light fixtures above the drop ceiling, later changing two of them to 8'ers. When I added a partial second level to the layout, I added nine more 4' doubles suspended under the upper level, along with two LED bulbs in the corners at the end of the aisle, where the layout is about 48" deep, from the corners of the fascia to the corners of the room.Last year, I removed 3 or 4 of the fluorescent fixtures over the layout where it's a single level, replacing them with low-profile LED fixtures mounted in the ceiling tiles, and plan to replace all of the remaining fluorescents over the single level with more of the same LEDs.While the LEDs are very bright, their light-beam spread is only 120º. I placed them just over 3' apart, and at a point in the ceiling even with the edge of the layout, so there are no areas of the layout's foreground in shadow, nor low light levels between fixtures. I won't use the LEDs over the partial upper level, though, as they'd need to be on 2' centres due to their 120º light spread, (the ceiling's only 22" above the upper level) and that would require at least 25 fixtures.There is a chance that I'll remove all nine of the 4' double fixtures illuminating the lower level and replace them with 100 watt-equivalent LED bulbs. This is mainly due to the fact that the fluorescents are open (no translucent plastic panels, like those on the ones in the ceiling), and as a result, colours on the lower level scenery are fading somewhat.
Here's one of the aisles before the partial upper level was added...
...and after...
Here's the upper staging yard, lit by fluorescents - note the dark area on the translucent panels near the aisle...caused by one of those steel beams...
...and the same area with the LEDs, which are thin enough to fit below the beam, so the front edge of the yard is not in shadow...
Wayne
The above discussion caused me to wonder: whether there's a difference in lighting between single and double-decker layouts? In other words, does one need more lighting than another? Also, the colors picked for scenery does change the lighting a bit. Just one of many factors to consider.
I have used track lighting on my last two layouts, really cheap and you can add cans if you need more light. Of course I use LED bulbs but started out the layout before with CFL's. You can get dimmable LED's if you need that.
I put LED panels in my drop ceiling when redoing the layout. Much brighter than the old fluorescents. And you cna get them in several different color temperatures.
For me though, these are just lights for walking around the room and to have plenty of light for construction. The actual layout lighting will be the LED tape stuff. It's come a long way from just random "hope the color matches" . Also different size LEDs incorporated on the tape provide different light levels per given length of the tape. There are nice bendable channels to mount it in, with or without diffusors to go over the top.
You can stop there - just need a 12 or 24V power supply (several, actually, for a large area - while an individual LED might not draw much current, a 5 meter long string of them does, and voltage drop over strings just connected end to end becomes an issue), which are fairly inexpensive - there are adapter boards for old server power supplies, or even brand new Mean Well high current 12V supplies are not expensive (silly name, but some of the best power supplies).
You can stop there, it you just want daytime lighting. I want to have dusk/dawn and night lighting as well, so I am planning to use RGB LED strings as well as blue ones. To control the colors of the RGB, as well as dim the white and blue, you use PWM drivers. Now, a single driver can't drive enough LED strips for a huge layout, so how do you get all the lights in the room to behave the same? Simple bit of theater tech called DMX. Each driver links together and is run by a controller, which can be a physical control or computer driven. I have a reel of RGB LEDs I got to experiment with, it came with a simple controller, but that controller only allows 15 steps per color plus off. The change in light as you cycle through is very abrupt. I also got a DMX driver on eBay, good for 4 channels (RGB plus a white strip) for something under $10. DMX allows 255 steps per color. I took the whole mess along on one of my month long business trips in 2019, figuring I'd have somethign to occupy a few nights in my room since I don't watch TV. First night I pulled it out, within a very short time I had the RGB LEDs transitioning smoothly from all on, daylight, through a nice sunset, to blue. Manually, using on-screen sliders in the control program, not automated, but it proved that indeed it does work and I should have no problem implementing this across the entire layout.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy, you are building multi deck correct? How high are the lights from the layout? Are you building a valance for the upper deck lighting? How big? How much "viewing openjng"?
I use cheap 4k Kelvin 1X4 flat panel LEDs from Lightup.com. They have a wide variety of lights to choose from - panels, bulbs, tubes, you name it. The panels I chose are dimmable (but not to zero - you need to buy more expensive units for that) and provide even light. Here's the link: 2 Pack 40 Watt 1' x 4' LED Panel Lights (lightup.com).
They're brighter to the eye than this image would lead you to believe - bright enough that my wife says they're too bright, but they're good for my older eyes!
For the ceiling, I elected not to finish that, but I painted the bottom flanges of the I beam joists with the room trim color. This made the ceiling retreat into the background while leaving all the house systems open should work ever need to be done. Plus it saved money and time when finishing the train room. While I didn't paint everything above the lower flanges, you see this kind of thing done in restaurants and commercial buildings all the time.
Works for me, anyway.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Sheldon,
I suppose the first question is what color temperature are you going to use?
Next question is are you planning on using valences?
When I tested lighting options for my layout 15 years ago, I settled on CPFLs in the 3500k range. I use valences and the layout is double deck.The scheme I use works vey well and provides even light on both decks. My first choice based on quality of light was halogen bulbs.These were quickly dumped when the heat and energy consumption issues were factored into the decision.
Current Trend in double deck (and layout lights in general) is to use LED strips mounted on angles behind the valence. I would likely explore that option were I starting over today. I have seen two very nice retrofits of double deck lighting using the strips and they work well.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Randy, you are building multi deck correct? How high are the lights from the layout? Are you building a valance for the upper deck lighting? How big? How much "viewing openjng"? Sheldon
Yes, my layout will be double deck, just can't fit it all on one deck in my space. Though if outside things keep going downhill in this state, I am contemplating a move since I can work from anywhere I can get a good internet connection - so I might be able to fins some place where I can create my dream layout and not have to go double deck - but that would basically mean having a single deck an an optimum height for me, and still have a valence overhead.
I am putting a valence over the top deck, which will set the distance fromt he lights to the rails below the same for both the upper and lower deck, no trying to adjust for even lighting, if I use the same lights, at the same distance, it should work out pretty even. I was going for 16" between the bottom of the upper deck and the top of the lower deck - any more and one deck or the other would be at an extremely uncomfortable height, and any less and the upper level would block the view of the lower level. It is, as with any multi deck design, a compromise, but the only way I can get the length of run I want in the space I have to work with.
It is around the walls, shelf style - I'm not so put off with narrow scenes as you are, and there are a lot of ways to work around it, to make it look far depper than it actually is. Most of it will be 18" wide - and I am making both levels as well as the upper valence all the same depth. The main yard is on the lower level and that is 2 feet deep. Because of both not wanting busy operating areas in the same spot stacked on top of one another, and to keep the weight down to avoid needed additional bracing for the top deck, the area over the yard will be mainly scenic - a depper scene with no sidings, or at most maybe a single coal loader spot, witht he main meandering in cosmetic curves. So I will have spots with deeper "all scenery" scenes - how the end up looking and how long it takes me to 'finish' them is up in the air, scenery is not my thing.
By having the decks all the same width, again that helps keep the lighting more even. A shorter upper deck would mean areas of the lower deck wouldn't be illuminated well by the LEDs under the upper deck.
I am planning a branch line around the outside of the one section of the basement that has the yard in it. That will be just one deck, fairly narrow, but since I can climb around the outside of the helix space, it will be at more like an ideal height. Also single tracked like the prototype and probably the one area ont he layout that will replicate actual Reading trackage, whereas the rest will be more "flavor of" than any detailed attempt to replicate the actual track. Running that branch, you will be islated from the other operating areas of the layout, so it really will be the lonely crew out on the branch.
rrinker...I am making both levels as well as the upper valence all the same depth....
I think that having them the same depth is a better choice than making the upper one narrower, which is usually done to allow the room lighting to sorta-light the lower level.
I have only a partial upper level, and it varies in depth relative to the depth of the level below. In my post, above, showing the dead-end aisle, the depth is 31.5" at both sides of both levels, while that at the end of the aisle is 38" deep, both levels.
In the photo showing the staging yards, both upper and lower are the same 21.5".
However, right across the same aisle from the staging, the lower level is 21" deep, while the upper level is 25" deep....
York1 Sheldon, I know you have a lot of building experience, and I don't, so take this with a grain of salt. My basement had 7'9" from the floor to the bottom of the main floor joists. I wanted a ceiling, but I didn't want to lose even several inches. I decided to try CeilingMax that I got at Menards. I know HD has it, too. It's a ceiling system similar to a suspended ceiling, but it mounts flush onto the floor joists. I wasn't sure at the time, but once I tried it, I was won over. I've got an entire basement with a nice looking ceiling, access to pipes and wires, and I lost about 1" of height.
Yes, I am leaning toward that system for most of the ceiling. Just considering how to mount lights? And what kind of lights to use?
Randy, my lighting will be about 3' above the layout, and I'm not interested in a valance or high back drops on the peninsulas that would block the view thru the room.
I have dimmable led recessed cans over aisles and various color temp dimmable led spotlights and linears for different effects.
I chose to install 16 LED 2x2 4k temp flat panel lights with a dimmer. Lights up the room very well. Ceiling height is about 7' 8".
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 I chose to install 16 LED 2x2 4k temp flat panel lights with a dimmer. Lights up the room very well. Ceiling height is about 7' 8".
I like that, and the similar suggestions from others. Thinking about how to make that work with the low profile drop ceiling grid mounted right on the floor joists?
And in a perfect world, install the lights first, then the ceiling.
Guess I need to look close at some of these lights and learn how they work mounting wise.
Putting drywall on the ceiling is a non starter for several reasons. Access is desired for house maintenance, and some layout wiring needs to go up there to bridge lift out sections and feed display panels that show train locations.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL riogrande5761 I chose to install 16 LED 2x2 4k temp flat panel lights with a dimmer. Lights up the room very well. Ceiling height is about 7' 8". I like that, and the similar suggestions from others. Thinking about how to make that work with the low profile drop ceiling grid mounted right on the floor joists? And in a perfect world, install the lights first, then the ceiling. Guess I need to look close at some of these lights and learn how they work mounting wise. Putting drywall on the ceiling is a non starter for several reasons. Access is desired for house maintenance, and some layout wiring needs to go up there to bridge lift out sections and feed display panels that show train locations. Sheldon
The problem with mounting the grid right on the joists would be how would you insert the tiles. Maybe insert them as you build the grid? But if you need to pop any out, they wouldn't be able to lift up and angle back out through the square grid space.
The way my 2x2 LED panels went in was basically the same way a ceiling tile goes in - angle them up over the grid and then rotate and drop in place. The LED panel is about as thin as a ceiling tile except for a small control box on the top. Code in my county required they have hanger wires to hold them up if the grid ever fell for any reason. I didn't know that until the inspector came.
Two of the things that didn't pass were the lack of hanger wires for the LED lights, and the wire I used to suspend the ceiling was too thin (Lowes sells thin wire and advertises it as suspended ceiling grid wire but also a much thicker wire. Turns out the thicker wire was what the country required. I replaced the suspension wire and added the hanger wire and the county passed the basement.
I installed my own drop ceiling and the space above the grid is pretty tight, around 3 1/2 inches IIRC. Between the thick code require hanging wire and the limited space between the joists, getting the ceiling tiles was a pain but I wanted the drop ceiling to be as high as possible and also to be nearly even with the tops of the basement windows.
This room is part of the basement but my wifes' lounge after I am finished most of the wood cutting.
I spread the 16 panels evenly throughout the 15x33 space and it seems evenly lit
If you look a John's post at the beginning of the thread you will see in the video the kind of grid system that mounts directly to the floor joists.
I would rather not loose 3"-4" of ceiling height for a conventional grid system.
Ah ok. I haven't seen that or how it works. I did conventional grid drop ceiling and am happy with the height even with the cost of the space above it.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI would rather not loose 3"-4" of ceiling height for a conventional grid system.
doctorwayneAdding a conventional drop ceiling, where there's nothing hanging below the bottom of the joists, needs the framework to be only 1/2" (the same as the thickness of the drop-in tiles) below the bottom edge of the joists....
I did one like that for a brother-in-law, as his basement had a fairly low ceiling.
The thin LEDs, which I mentioned earlier, could easily be installed in those tiles, as they're only 1/2" deep too.
ATLANTIC CENTRALYes, I am leaning toward that system for most of the ceiling. Just considering how to mount lights? And what kind of lights to use? Sheldon
Yeah, I don't have an answer for that. I put can lights in that went between the joists. The three basement rooms are bedrooms, and didn't need flat panel lights.
If you do figure out what to do, I'd appreciate hearing about it.
riogrande5761The problem with mounting the grid right on the joists would be how would you insert the tiles. Maybe insert them as you build the grid? But if you need to pop any out, they wouldn't be able to lift up and angle back out through the square grid space.
The ceiling mount system I used has flexible runners, that tilt to install or remove the tiles. I recently needed to put in a wall outlet and had to remove some tiles to run the Romex. It was not as easy as a suspended ceiling, but it wasn't that difficult. One piece snaps out, and the rest of the runners tilt to remove the tiles.
Like I said earlier, I'm not a builder, but I was happy with the result. The system probably is not for everyone.
My basement has like 8' ceilings, so hanging the grid down below the cupport column didn't really cost anything.
The LED lights I have, both the 2x4 and 2x2 panel, fit int he grid channels just like the old fluorescent ones, or more like a standard tile. They are barely thicker than standard ceiling tiles, so they shoudl work fine with the shallow grids.
Thanks guys for all the responses, gave me some ideas and some research to do.
I will post any updates as things progress.
I just read through this entire thread for the first time. Some very interesting stuff here.
When we built our new home back in 1999, the builder suggested that we consider deepining the basement by another foot. I declined and to this day I have regretted that decision. Our basement measures 92" from the floor to the bottom of the ceiling joists. It could have been 104" deep. The basement remains unfinished and if I ever install a drop ceiling I worry that it will look like a cave. An 88" high ceiling is pretty low, and our basement is 2,000 square feet.
When we moved in, there were 7 bare bulb fixtures with pull chain on/off controls across the entire basement. It was depressing to even walk down there. When I built my first layout in 2004, I used up about 1/3 of the available space and added 11 fluorescent fixtures, each measuring 48" long around the layout. That, of course, was the brightest spot in the basement.
When I built my new layout, started in 2018, I began by installing 53 recessed can fixtures with LED floodlights inside the ceiling joists. But, I decided not to install a drop ceiling. Now, I wish I did.
I am intrigued with John's installation and what I find most interesting is the "tilt" feature of the framework to install and remove tiles. Living in the Chicago area, all of our wiring must be installed inside thin wall conduit. I actually like the conduit requirement because it is easy to access the wiring, if need be, as opposed to Romex.
But the use of conduit requires access to junction boxes that are mounted up against the ceiling joists. So, suspended ceilings require removable ceiling panels to gain access to ceiling mounted junction boxes. That "tilt" solution would be ideal to secure access.
I need to seriously consider the system that John has used. With my recessed can fixtures in place, it wouldn't be that difficult to install his system as opposed to a drop down ceiling that would lose even more space between the ceiling and the floor of the basement.
One last thought for anyone unfamiliar with conduit. It is easy to conceal conduit up between the ceiling joists when joining between recessed can lights, and flexible BX is permitted for 6' runs or less in length.
But the main runs of conduit that run across the basement ceiling from the service panel to reach the upper floors of the house must be secured to the underside of the ceiling joists. This poses a problem with drop ceilings or even with the "tilt" system.
What I mean by that is that the framework cannot be attached directly to the underside of the ceiling joists but must be attached to firring strips that encase the conduit. Problems, problems, problems.
Rich
Alton Junction
Rich,
Yes, I am familiar with those crazy strict electrical codes where you are.
My 1964 basement is also a lttle shallow, as was the practice here back then.
Today most new homes here are done with much deeper basements and many are fully or partly finished living space from the start.
I am still considering all my options, but access is a must even here. I too have pipes, valves for baseboard heat, junction boxes and more that may one day require access.
I am replaceing all the 1964 plumbing before starting the layout, did a big section of it yesterday.
More later,
I should add that the installation of those 53 recessed cans with LED floodlights has made a remarkable difference in my basement in general and over the layout in particular. Those recessed cans are spaced approximately 6 feet apart and the overlapping light pattern ensures that there are no shadows or dark spots.
I know that a lot of guys add LED strip lighting above their layouts as well, but in terms of basic lighting, I could not be happier with the installation of recessed cans with LED floodlights to illuminate the entire space.