What I do is read what LSM has to say and then assume that the opposite must be true, which inevitably it is.
Rich
Alton Junction
It’s a shame that lately so much time is wasted on this forum debunking one poster’s incorrect assertions while he twists himself into increasingly convoluted positions to avoid admitting that he was wrong.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
DoughlessI don't think the OP's premise was that he was thinking of soldering track together without using joiners, although some probably do that. Most of the responses assumed he was asking if you solder the joiners on first before bending and installing the track, not whether or not to use joiners at all.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's possible a poster assumed that when someone says they are soldering track, they are doing that instead of rail joiners.
I believe the rest of us are talking about using joiners, and then soldering the track and joiners both together.
I have never tried soldering track together without joiners. If that were the case, then that would change the entire discussion.
York1 John
Lastspikemike selector I think our friend enjoys arguing for its sake. The rest of us who share veridical information about our hobby might just as well take some comfort in our distributed, and otherwise well-received, experience and knowledge, and continue to do so. Anyone who asserts that a soldered joiner is no stronger than a simple joiner clearly doesn’t understand the nature of the materials. Moreover, he can’t be budged from his perch, a position in which I happily leave him. Strength of the joint was never the issue. Rigidity is. My point has been that rail joiners are easily as suitable to use for bending flex track in joined up pieces. The fact is using rail joiners is easier. I correctly anticipated the reaction of the soldering fans. Similar to the fans of massively overbuilt benchwork and similar very conservative opinions about how to do model railroading stuff. My purpose was to discourage OP from adopting the soldering method in the first place.
selector I think our friend enjoys arguing for its sake. The rest of us who share veridical information about our hobby might just as well take some comfort in our distributed, and otherwise well-received, experience and knowledge, and continue to do so. Anyone who asserts that a soldered joiner is no stronger than a simple joiner clearly doesn’t understand the nature of the materials. Moreover, he can’t be budged from his perch, a position in which I happily leave him.
I think our friend enjoys arguing for its sake. The rest of us who share veridical information about our hobby might just as well take some comfort in our distributed, and otherwise well-received, experience and knowledge, and continue to do so. Anyone who asserts that a soldered joiner is no stronger than a simple joiner clearly doesn’t understand the nature of the materials. Moreover, he can’t be budged from his perch, a position in which I happily leave him.
Strength of the joint was never the issue.
Rigidity is.
My point has been that rail joiners are easily as suitable to use for bending flex track in joined up pieces. The fact is using rail joiners is easier.
I correctly anticipated the reaction of the soldering fans. Similar to the fans of massively overbuilt benchwork and similar very conservative opinions about how to do model railroading stuff.
My purpose was to discourage OP from adopting the soldering method in the first place.
Rigidity IS strength. As in, uniaxially. Contrary to what you tell yourself, a soldered joint is an augmented joint because the solder binds to both the rail web and the inner surfaces of the joiner; perhaps your results are different. Once soldered, the joint can neither compress nor separate. This translates, rationally, to “strengthened.” It also has a markedly reduced tendency to kink due to both properties aforementioned.
Your success at predicting anyone’s reaction to your contentions is irrelevant, as is your straw man about overbuilt benchwork. In fact, you have mentioned this artefact of the discussion, and you role in it, twice so far. I can’t help but wonder why it is so important to you, except that you appear to draw what I would term a perverse pleasure from it. I just wish you could understand that it has won you a paucity of affirmation or admiration...in case you’re still unsure why you have been accorded so little shrift.
selector paucity shrift
paucity shrift
To, too, two more words I had to look up.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
cuyamaIt’s a shame that lately so much time is wasted on this forum debunking one poster’s incorrect assertions while he twists himself into increasingly convoluted positions to avoid admitting that he was wrong.
He's having a grand old time. Besides, reality is subjective, there is ample evidence of that these days, if you watch the news. If he really believes what he writes, we aren't going to change his mind.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BATMAN selector paucity shrift
selector
paucity
Look on the bright side of it, Brent...at least you learned from the lesson...some don't.
Wayne
doctorwayne BATMAN selector paucity shrift Look on the bright side of it, Brent...at least you learned from the lesson...some don't. Wayne
Ya, and at least I looked them up, some wouldn't.
BATMAN selector paucity shrift To, too, two more words I had to look up.
Sorry, Brent. On the upside, at least sumbuddy is willing to learn in this thread.
LastspikemikeSolder is much less rigid than rail joiners.
I think you and I are talking about two different things.
When I said soldered joints, I meant that a rail joiner is soldered in place to the rails, using both a rail joiner and solder.
I did not mean to imply that I am soldering the rails together without a rail joiner -- I can't imagine that would work.
Sorry for the confusion.
Reading this thread it appears to me that we have one poster that is the seat of all wisdom and everyone else is uninformed, or worse yet, old and uninformed.
Mike, everyone reading along in this thread understands that one doesn’t attempt to abut two rail ends, solder them, and then expect to have a robust and functional joint that will withstand the attempts to then fashion a curve that incorporates the soldered joint. We all assumed that, when one asks about “soldered joints”, one means a metal joiner that has solder applied to it. You were apparently the only one arguing that a solely soldered joint won’t suffice having assumed that we all routinely solder joints minus a metal joiner in place. I can assure you that nobody with any experience in the hobby does that. I hope you can take it on good faith that we have taken to soldering our joints here and there on our track systems because of the salutary improvements such soldered joints afford those of us who adopt that practice. None of us enjoys doing unnecessary work, but we have adopted a technique of fortifying metal joiners because it works!
York1 Doughless I don't think the OP's premise was that he was thinking of soldering track together without using joiners, although some probably do that. Most of the responses assumed he was asking if you solder the joiners on first before bending and installing the track, not whether or not to use joiners at all. I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's possible a poster assumed that when someone says they are soldering track, they are doing that instead of rail joiners. I believe the rest of us are talking about using joiners, and then soldering the track and joiners both together. I have never tried soldering track together without joiners. If that were the case, then that would change the entire discussion.
Doughless I don't think the OP's premise was that he was thinking of soldering track together without using joiners, although some probably do that. Most of the responses assumed he was asking if you solder the joiners on first before bending and installing the track, not whether or not to use joiners at all.
Yep. Assuming the goal posts haven't been moved to win a straw man argument, it appears to be an argument over whether soldering two pieces of track together, sans joiners, is as strong as using joiners.
Problem is, only one person is having that argument.
Everybody else is talking about using rail joiners AND solder. Experience says that 95% of us use joiners, so when somebody asks questions about soldering track, we assume its inclusive of joiners.
Less experienced folks might take the phrase "soldering track together" more literally.
- Douglas
BigDaddyIf he really believes what he writes, we aren't going to change his mind.
I'm not worried about that, just that there are newcomers and folks with legitimate questions who may be confused or misled in the broadsides of verbosity.
Douglas that percentage is probably higher I've been doing this for close to 50 yrs and never saw anyone try to solder rail end to end without a joiner
I would try it but can't get in the basement right now since me and my moterbike got into an arguement with a car we lost
I don't bother reading his posts anymore since he stated fact about atlas #6 snap switches have yet to find any and I have over 150 #6
One other thing he states "we" did this on our layout like it's a club then "he" did this on his So kind of like "show me the money"
Show me some pictures never posted a single one
mikeGTW Douglas that percentage is probably higher I've been doing this for close to 50 yrs and never saw anyone try to solder rail end to end without a joiner I would try it but can't get in the basement right now since me and my moterbike got into an arguement with a car we lost I don't bother reading his posts anymore since he stated fact about atlas #6 snap switches have yet to find any and I have over 150 #6 One other thing he states "we" did this on our layout like it's a club then "he" did this on his So kind of like "show me the money" Show me some pictures never posted a single one
I was thinking 100%, but you know, there's always that one person somewhere.
I think it would nearly impossible to solder two rails together.
Part of the point of a joiner is to align the profiles of the two pieces of track, laterally.
How would you get perfect and smooth lateral alignment without a joiner, fancy up a jig of some sort?
Take this all with a grain of salt if you want; it's not meant either as besserwisserism or 'chest-beating'.
Rails in modeling usually have to be treated as in the prototype to behave 'like the prototype'. I experimented with varieties of 'stampcrete'-like outdoor roadbed construction in HO, and here are some of my observations:
Nickel silver rail should not be butt-soldered. It will work for smooth bending on installation (it's more appropriate to consider this a 'brazed' butt joint, with the materials and temperatures that implies) but it will likely stand little mechanical manipulation, and filing the excess is tedious for the value gained. The correct method of butt-joining rail is to dress the rail ends carefully, use gas blanket and jig that can lightly preload force between the ends, and use resistance welding to make a homogeneous joint. Spot-welding also "works" but it messes up the joint more.
In the real world any non-welded rail joint is always reinforced, by carefully aligned plates on either side that usually have lockwasher or Belleville tension on their bolts. "Scale" re-creation of this with tiny holes in the rail, little fishplates, etc. is possible, but would be extremely tedious even if the necessary superfinish and fabricating precision could be assured. Instead we use a one-piece formed clip that aligns the rail bases and holds the web firmly with spring tension over a distance comparable to that which fishplates would provide. This of course is the traditional 'joiner'.
One issue with this is that the leverage between relatively stiff rail ends occurs at a shallow angle with increasing lever arm out to the 'mouths' so that bending deforms the spring tension where it is least needed for smooth bending -- you will tend to see kinks if the rail itself is not formed to the correct curve before insertion (yes, to be consistent you would lightly form the joiner to match this).
Were you to do this before forming the rest of the curve in the rail, including when the rail is in some 'flex track' tie strip arrangement, the situation with 'strength' is as lastspikemike intimates it: you do not have to stress the thin spring metal of the joiner, so there is no more issue with joint integrity than in a straight joint, and no concern if joints are staggered if they are both pre-bent in assembly even if the curve as a whole is then bent using a gage to final alignment with the joinered 'location' slipping relative to the ties.
The added strength and integrity from soldering joiners while the ends are held straight is as the old heads observe; it makes kinking at the joint impossible. However, it also results, unless great care and force is then used, in a rigid short length of rail that is more difficult to bend than the 'rest' -- so there will be a kind of reverse kink even if the curve is laid with something like a Ribbonrail gage to continuous curvature. This is of course relatively slight; it can in fact be filed or ground to 'true' on one of the two rails, and any transient kinking at the outer ends eased in the other the same way. I suspect most anyone not working to P:87 standards would never notice this (although they might well notice kinks from overbending an unsoldered-joiner joint!)
That you want the joints in a curve to remain solidly aligned over time is almost a truism. Even lightly soldering joiners, either before or after the track is lined and surfaced, assures this better than relying on the mechanical properties of what is basically a machine-bent skelp formed from a stamped strip that is crudely fatigue-bent or cut apart... Personally, I think there are far more reasons to 'solder' than not to, particularly if you so do lightly enough to allow relatively easy desoldering if for some reason you want to break the joint.
Continuity issues for those who solder feeders to joiners is something lastspikemike glosses over, although that may be because he doesn't practice that method. There, using a higher-temperature solder and technique between feeder and joiner (or indeed using resistance welding, as is easily possible in large jigged quantity as it can be done away from the layout in ideal conditions) and then using whatever gives adequate electrical conductivity into the nickel-silver to the point of 'moving' contact is what I'd recommend. I certainly wouldn't trust just the use of dielectric grease between spring joiner and rail to assure enough contact area for what may be relatively high peak current transmission, or high digital frequencies without dropout...
FlattenedQuarter Has anybody tried soldering 2 pieces of flex track together before forming curve?
Has anybody tried soldering 2 pieces of flex track together before forming curve?
cuyama BigDaddy If he really believes what he writes, we aren't going to change his mind. I'm not worried about that, just that there are newcomers and folks with legitimate questions who may be confused or misled in the broadsides of verbosity.
BigDaddy If he really believes what he writes, we aren't going to change his mind.
+1
Byron,
I tend to agree with you, but some people are here to discuss things .... and discuss they will.....Even if the info is correct, there can be long winded responses to simple questions (I've been guilty of that many times).
When the long winded advice is questionable or plain wrong, then the thread becomes almost useless as other posters try to make sure that the correct info is presented and can be drawn into an argument. And of course, everyone on the web is an expert.......And so it goes.....
Guy
BTW: Love the diagram in the earlier post
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
The actual 'non-dissertation' answer to Rich is that his answer needs to be one sentence longer. You solder the ends and then bend the curve outward from the join to fit the ends, rather than naively starting at one fixed end, working around, and having to cut out and replace ties, fudge gauge at joints, etc.
One sentence longer: prebend the half inch at each side of the joint to accurate 'final' radius with a jig or guide before hoining and soldering.
Both these methods work quite as well without soldering, if you absolutely positively can't solder, so no further need for the nontechnical to dispute that point more... . Just that it's easier to solder and be done.
The procedure of posting pictures on an Internet site to get an URL, then inserting that URL in a post has been covered e both here and in other forums. Do NOT expect Kalmbach to introduce embedded images and all the problems associated with that into their fancy BBS-based forum... now or in the promised stage 3.
I sympathize ... well, not really, but in principle ... with the lazy or non-tech-savvy who can't or won't follow simple directions. But there comes a time when even great egoists have to accept they can't stamp or hold their breath until Kalmbach gives them what they want when it's needlessly difficult or costly for Kalmbach's IT to do so...
Just don't try saying there's an objective issue when it's just lazetail preference...
LastspikemikeTo recap, then, the answer is no, don't solder the rail joiners just to facilitate bending flex track into a nice smooth curve.
?
That is not the answer.
Evidently we weren't just talking past each other.
The answer, for me, when using N Scale Atlas flex track, is to solder the joiners and the track. That facilitates bending flex track into a nice smooth curve.
This is amazing.
LastspikemikeNow we're all on the same page look who's moved the goalposts.
LastspikemikeI make no apologies for misunderstanding the supposedly obvious fact that nobody solders rails for structural reasons.
As it turns out, nobody actually moved the goal posts. It was simply revealed by York1 and myself that you had no idea where they were located in the first place, but were calling plays with great vigor like you did.
LastspikemikeI make no apologies
And there's the problem....you should.
LastspikemikeI have soldered loose rail joiners to improve the connection. Waste of time imho
Well, at least you're humble enough in this sentence to clearly delineate that its your opinion. That's a start.
York1 Lastspikemike To recap, then, the answer is no, don't solder the rail joiners just to facilitate bending flex track into a nice smooth curve. ? That is not the answer. Evidently we weren't just talking past each other. The answer, for me, when using N Scale Atlas flex track, is to solder the joiners and the track. That facilitates bending flex track into a nice smooth curve. This is amazing.
Lastspikemike To recap, then, the answer is no, don't solder the rail joiners just to facilitate bending flex track into a nice smooth curve.
Congrats. Calling him out for trying to move the goal posts nailed him down to what he was actually trying to say.
But there could be hidden meaning in "just to facilitate" that sets the framework for another twist later.
Deleted by York1.
The forum needs another emoticon...starts with “Heinz.”
SeeYou190 So here we have another honest question asked by a forum member that had turned into a chest-thumping contest by he who obviously knows very little about model railroading but will never admit he is wrong. We will never grow the active member population in here if this happens to every honest question, especially questions asked by people who really just need an answer. -Kevin
So here we have another honest question asked by a forum member that had turned into a chest-thumping contest by he who obviously knows very little about model railroading but will never admit he is wrong.
We will never grow the active member population in here if this happens to every honest question, especially questions asked by people who really just need an answer.
-Kevin
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Lastspikemike It does depend also on the type of flex track. Peco is flexible both ways as is ME flex track. Atlas and Walthers is springy. The joiners will be enough if you actually bend the curve leaving no tension in the rail. Atlas and Walthers (formerly Shinohara) spring back as you release the bending force. You have to over bend by just the right amount so the desired curve results after the bending force is removed. If you try to hold the bend with glue or nails or joiners you will not be happy. Peco is slightly springy but much easier to bend by just the right amount. ME bends if you just look at it funny and won't try to straighten itself. If your rail joints kink it's not the joiners. The joiners are not supposed to be under any tension whether you're using flex track or sectional track. Once joined you glue or nail down the track and all locating forces should be transferred to the glue bond if the nails. I must say it is curiously gratifying to be able to predict the posts after such a short while on this board.
It does depend also on the type of flex track. Peco is flexible both ways as is ME flex track. Atlas and Walthers is springy.
The joiners will be enough if you actually bend the curve leaving no tension in the rail.
Atlas and Walthers (formerly Shinohara) spring back as you release the bending force. You have to over bend by just the right amount so the desired curve results after the bending force is removed. If you try to hold the bend with glue or nails or joiners you will not be happy.
Peco is slightly springy but much easier to bend by just the right amount.
ME bends if you just look at it funny and won't try to straighten itself.
If your rail joints kink it's not the joiners. The joiners are not supposed to be under any tension whether you're using flex track or sectional track. Once joined you glue or nail down the track and all locating forces should be transferred to the glue bond if the nails.
I must say it is curiously gratifying to be able to predict the posts after such a short while on this board.
selector The forum needs another emoticon...starts with “Heinz.”
Lastspikemike As a relatively new member I understand why this forum has trouble keeping new members. I noticed that while researching topics of interest to me. However, even if I tried to explain this I would be misunderstood by the very posters that are the problem.
As a relatively new member I understand why this forum has trouble keeping new members. I noticed that while researching topics of interest to me.
However, even if I tried to explain this I would be misunderstood by the very posters that are the problem.
I for one do not think you are a troll. And actually appreciate a lot of what you have to say. Free thinking is a good thing.
Assuming that you have humility and sincerity that approaches average human levels, I'll offer what I've learned on this forum when it comes to drafting comments.
Our group's experiences vary as they pertain to time and circumstances. What is absolutely right to one, is completey wrong to another, or many, depending upon how broad or narrow our experiences are.
I for one am interested in building layouts with a modern shortline theme. Its not a particulalry popular theme amongst the group.
As an example of circumstances influencing my experience in the hobby:
There have been times years ago where there were heavy dc vs dcc conversations in many threads. I took the opinion that operating multiple trains at one time was not a feasible activity, so there would be "no advantage for someone to have a nonsound dcc system that allows for multiple independent train control", rather than simply having dc. (I still have that opinion by the way )
I ran one train at a time, no matter how big the layout was. Always have, always will. So my right-minded opinion came (comes) from my circumstance.
Others have different circumstances. For instance, club style layouts, with many members needing to control many trains at the same time. DCC is much better than flipping toggle blocks for 5 operators.
And its not only a group thing.
Some lone wolfs like to model engine servicing. While only having one operator move one loco at a time, cramming 26 locos into a 20 SF engine servicing module would be a pain to wire and operate in DC. DCC is much better for that style of layout.
So while making a statement such as, for example, "there is no advantage to a DCC system over DC" might look correct to the person writing it, its actually quite wrong. The problem arises when the writer has no ability or willingness to comprehend how wrong they are.
And that's not a matter of opinion.