Has anybody tried soldering 2 pieces of flex track together before forming curve? Or is this another stupid question lol?
A long standing procedure
the flex trax itself can have the curve started, but the last six inches or so should be straight to ensure a staight joint later in that area ...
the gap itself can be across from each other, or spaced a little, both methods are used ...
best results are obtained with track metal joined and then soldered in place
FlattenedQuarter Or is this another stupid question lol?
Or is this another stupid question lol?
As we say in the UK 'No question asked is a stupid question'.
The only stupid question is the one not asked.
Happy modeling
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
This is one of the issues I had when I started.
I worked and worked at getting the track curved and then soldered.
Then I joined the MR Forum, and read posts about soldering the track before curving it.
Thanks to this forum, my flextrack-laying life became much easier.
York1 John
I prefer to solder afterwards if I am using a brand of track that stays put after you bend it. With the springy stuff, it depends. How's that for an answer. As far as the electrical end of it, Alan Gartner says that everything should be soldered to something meaning if you don't solder the joint, have a feeder. If you solder your joints have a feeder every second section. I follow that formula and have never had an electrical issue. A little redundancy is in my nature.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
LastspikemikeFor creating the curve rail joiners will be strong enough.
LastspikemikeIf you join the two pieces first then the joint will need to slide into the ties of the adjoining piece, pushing that rail even further out of the other end. That won't work.
LastspikemikeEventually, you cut four ties off each end of fiex track in order to, slip these finishing pieces onto the ends of fiex track. These finishers duplicate the ends of sectional track. You could get more slide room by cutting onkynone or two ties off each end of joined flex track, cutting the other two or three off later before you solder, obviously. Another advantage of using joiners and not soldering.
I use Atlas N Scale flex track.
1. The rail joiners were not strong enough. I tried that quite a few times, and the rails would either slip out of the joiner or, more often, the rail would bend a little sharper at the joiner.
2. The inside rail that pushed further out the other end was easily cut to the correct length.
3. Removing one or two ties did not create a problem with kinking. The ties were easily added back by just sliding them under the track. Of course, the spike heads will not be there, but the soldered joiner keeps the track from kinking, and with N Scale, the missing spike heads are not seen.
I'll repeat the disclaimer: I'm using N Scale Atlas track. This may not work with other scales and with other brands.
BATMANAs far as the electrical end of it, Alan Gartner says that everything should be soldered to something meaning if you don't solder the joint, have a feeder. If you solder your joints have a feeder every second section. I follow that formula and have never had an electrical issue. A little redundancy is in my nature.
I think redundancy is my middle name. I not only soldered the joints, I also soldered feeders to every three-foot section of flex track.
It wasn't needed, but then again, it kept me busy doing something I enjoyed.
FlattenedQuarterHas anybody tried soldering 2 pieces of flex track together before forming curve? Or is this another stupid question lol?
As "ndbprr" stated, this is a long standing practice.
I am going to assume you are using Atlas brand HO scale flex track for this description, other brands might have different "kinks" () to using them.
I have only done this with Atlas brand track like this:
1) Solder metal rail joiners to both rails. On Atlas flex track there is a "loose" rail and a "stuck" rail. The loose rail will slide easily in the ties. Make sure both loose rails are soldered together.
2) Lay out the curve with the loose rail on the inside of the curve. Try to position the soldered joint near the center of the curve and at least 15 inches from either end.
3) Cut the ends of the flex track to join to the existing track and connect as appropriate.
4) If done correctly, you will have about an even amount of extra "loose side" rail on both ends of the curve, and sleeper spacing should be even and continuous through the curve.
I hope this helps, and as NorthBrit said, there are no dumb questions.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
FlattenedQuarter Has anybody tried soldering 2 pieces of flex track together before forming curve?
Has anybody tried soldering 2 pieces of flex track together before forming curve?
I solder the track together while one piece is already laid down on a curve.
I first remove one tie from each end of the Atlas flex track that I am planning to lay so there is room for the joiner. I save those if I need to fill them back in (in staging, I don't bother as it's not the visible scenic'd part of the layout).
I lay my flex track on a curve centerline and leave the last ~10 inches loose, the rest of it being fastened down using Atlas track nails or spikes.
I then bend the remaining track around following the centeriline and the inner rail is sticking out at that point. The inner rail is the sliding rail.
I then mark it parallel to the outer rail by scoring the top of the rail with an Xacto chisle blade. Then let it spring back out a bit and cut the rail with a Demel cut off disc (obligatory wear eye protection).
Now that both rails are even when curved to the centerline I bend it back around part way to that the end of the loose part is mostly straight and hold it there with a track nail stuck in temporarily against the side; I attach the next piece of flex, attach head sinks, brush on flux and solder the outsides of each rail at the joiner.
Now I bend the track around for a smooth flowing curve on the centerline and tack it down and keep going.
The rail joiners are both parallel at the end of each track as you can see in the photo below.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I am using Atlas code 83, lots of great advice so far. THANKS!
No one mentioned (sorry if I missed some) one problem that can occur if all rail joints are soldered - if layout room temperature fluctuates a lot throughout the year, in warmer period rail can expand so much it will break the tie and track will be destroyed. I experienced that on several layouts.
I am aware it is good to solder rails, at least in curve, but maybe to avoid track destruction due to big temperature difference, it is good to solder only curved sections, while leaving straight sections without soldering (with some small intentional gaps between rails), to allow for material expansion. Of course, that requires feeders for all flex tracks.
Comments are appreciated.
Hrvoje
I'm doing this as we speak. The method:
Take two, or in my case three, pieces of straight flex track out of the box.
Remove one tie at each end of each piece to allow for the soldered joiners to slide with the rail. I'm using Peco code 83.
Install joiners.
Solder joiners
Bend track to shape and affix to roadbed with caulk.
Install feedered rail joiners at each end...or maybe after another piece track I solder to the curve.
- Douglas
Lastspikemike For creating the curve rail joiners will be strong enough. You can solder later if you wish. Soldering is largely a waste of time if you intend to fit multiple feeders into your layout but the "old guard" will still tell you otherwise, defying logic.
For creating the curve rail joiners will be strong enough. You can solder later if you wish. Soldering is largely a waste of time if you intend to fit multiple feeders into your layout but the "old guard" will still tell you otherwise, defying logic.
Doughless I'm doing this as we speak. The method: Take two, or in my case three, pieces of straight flex track out of the box. Remove one tie at each end of each piece to allow for the soldered joiners to slide with the rail. I'm using Peco code 83. Install joiners. Solder joiners Bend track to shape and affix to roadbed with caulk. Install feedered rail joiners at each end...or maybe after another piece track I solder to the curve.
Alton Junction
I have done both; the in-place way works better for me.
Lay the first length, leave six inches free.
Second length slides in six-to-eight ties, with ties removed.
Joiner binds the displaced rails, second joiner in the usual place.
Bend the two onto the centreline, spike the new length. It will be perfect.
richhotrain Lastspikemike For creating the curve rail joiners will be strong enough. You can solder later if you wish. Soldering is largely a waste of time if you intend to fit multiple feeders into your layout but the "old guard" will still tell you otherwise, defying logic. In my experience, this is simply not true. I have built several large layouts, creating 32 inch radius curves. Initially I simply installed rail joiners, but the resulting kinks caused constant derailments. I eventually took out all of the curved and reinstalled the flex track after soldering the rail joiners in place. Rail joiners alone are simply inadequate to form a curve without kinking. Listen to the "old guard", whatever that means. Doughless I'm doing this as we speak. The method: Take two, or in my case three, pieces of straight flex track out of the box. Remove one tie at each end of each piece to allow for the soldered joiners to slide with the rail. I'm using Peco code 83. Install joiners. Solder joiners Bend track to shape and affix to roadbed with caulk. Install feedered rail joiners at each end...or maybe after another piece track I solder to the curve. I use Atlas Code 83 flex track, and I follow the same method as described by Doughless. Always solder multiple pieces of flex track together to form your curves.
In my experience, this is simply not true. I have built several large layouts, creating 32 inch radius curves. Initially I simply installed rail joiners, but the resulting kinks caused constant derailments. I eventually took out all of the curved and reinstalled the flex track after soldering the rail joiners in place. Rail joiners alone are simply inadequate to form a curve without kinking. Listen to the "old guard", whatever that means.
I use Atlas Code 83 flex track, and I follow the same method as described by Doughless. Always solder multiple pieces of flex track together to form your curves.
I am solidly in your camp. Not that I’m especially experienced or accomplished, but I have laid a few Code 100 and 83 curves to date, now running my fourth substantial rail system with twinned 60’ mains. While you can run unsoldered joints on curves, it will both look and function much better if those joints are bolstered with solder, and the effect becomes more important with diminishing radius.
Lastspikemike I must say it is curiously gratifying to be able to predict the posts after such a short while on this board.
I must say it is curiously gratifying to be able to predict the posts after such a short while on this board.
LastspikemikeWalthers is springy.
I have not seen the new Walthers track, however, I have 500' of the old stuff on the layout and it is not the springy type. Is the new stuff springy?
I've used Atlas and Peco and have seen ME. IMO, no flex track holds its bend at the very end. While the Peco track I'm working with holds its bend througout the curve, the lack of tension created by the end of the ongoing tie array causes the track to not bend during about the last three pairs of ties.
When working with Atlas, which is springy, I would sometimes want to have a premade curve to install. This would require prebending the track, and since the ends would not bend without undo force, I would bend the track up until about the last six inches of track, then cut it off at the curve.
While this process on a larger scale would eliminate the side force tension on rail joiners when joining two pieces of flex in the middle of a curve, it seems like a lot of hassle just to be able to justify not soldering the joiner.
I prefer to solder the joiner when the pieces are straight, making one large piece, then curving the entire assembly.
You just have to make sure to remove enough ties (or spikeheads) so the joiners have room to slide.
Lastspikemike...For creating the curve rail joiners will be strong enough. You can solder later if you wish.....
Depending on the tightness of the curve, an unsoldered rail joiner can spread, not only causing electrical continuity problems later, but also affecting rail alignment through the curve.
Lastspikemike...Soldering is largely a waste of time if you intend to fit multiple feeders into your layout...
Since soldering joiners aids in creating smooth curves, it's hardly a waste of time. The waste of time is in adding a bus wire and then bothering to solder feeders, as the soldered rail is a sufficiently effective conductor on its own.
Lastspikemike....but the "old guard" will still tell you otherwise, defying logic....
I guess I'm part of the "old guard", but my statement above actually illustrates logic.
Lastspikemike....If you use a continuous wire bus with feeders connected frequently then soldering the rails cannot improve continuity of power. That comes from the continuous wire bus
If the rails are soldered together, then the same arguement can be said for the bus wire and feeders - they add nothing to the continuity of power in soldered-together rails.
Lastspikemike....Furthermore, the locomotive wheels aren't soldered to the rails and that's where the continuity problem actually is.
I suppose you're right if your locos' wheels are dirty enough to interrupt power delivery to the motor, but soldering the rail joiners is just as effective in conducting electricity as is adding a bus wire and feeders. Soldering joiners takes care of that with a lot less cost and a lot less work, too.
My layout has only around 300' of main line, not counting the second track through seven of the on-line towns, nor the industrial spurs and five staging yards. I have no problem running in excess of a dozen locos at a time (usually for the amusement of my grandkids). It helps operation if the layout room is kept clean, and minimises the need for track cleaning - an annual vacuuming of the track usually takes care of that.Perhaps larger layouts, such as club railroads, benefit from a bus wire, but it seems like a waste of time and materials for most home layouts.
Wayne
doctorwayne Lastspikemike ...For creating the curve rail joiners will be strong enough. You can solder later if you wish..... Depending on the tightness of the curve, an unsoldered rail joiner can spread, not only causing electrical continuity problems later, but also affecting rail alignment through the curve. Lastspikemike ...Soldering is largely a waste of time if you intend to fit multiple feeders into your layout... Since soldering joiners aids in creating smooth curves, it's hardly a waste of time. The waste of time is in adding a bus wire and then bothering to solder feeders, as the soldered rail is a sufficiently effective conductor on its own. Lastspikemike ....but the "old guard" will still tell you otherwise, defying logic.... I guess I'm part of the "old guard", but my statement above actually illustrates logic. Lastspikemike ....If you use a continuous wire bus with feeders connected frequently then soldering the rails cannot improve continuity of power. That comes from the continuous wire bus If the rails are soldered together, then the same arguement can be said for the bus wire and feeders - they add nothing to the continuity of power in soldered-together rails. Lastspikemike ....Furthermore, the locomotive wheels aren't soldered to the rails and that's where the continuity problem actually is. I suppose you're right if your locos' wheels are dirty enough to interrupt power delivery to the motor, but soldering the rail joiners is just as effective in conducting electricity as is adding a bus wire and feeders. Soldering joiners takes care of that with a lot less cost and a lot less work, too. My layout has only around 300' of main line, not counting the second track through seven of the on-line towns, nor the industrial spurs and five staging yards. I have no problem running in excess of a dozen locos at a time (usually for the amusement of my grandkids). It helps operation if the layout room is kept clean, and minimises the need for track cleaning - an annual vacuuming of the track usually takes care of that. Perhaps larger layouts, such as club railroads, benefit from a bus wire, but it seems like a waste of time and materials for most home layouts. Wayne
Lastspikemike ...For creating the curve rail joiners will be strong enough. You can solder later if you wish.....
Lastspikemike ...Soldering is largely a waste of time if you intend to fit multiple feeders into your layout...
Lastspikemike ....but the "old guard" will still tell you otherwise, defying logic....
Lastspikemike ....If you use a continuous wire bus with feeders connected frequently then soldering the rails cannot improve continuity of power. That comes from the continuous wire bus
Lastspikemike ....Furthermore, the locomotive wheels aren't soldered to the rails and that's where the continuity problem actually is.
My layout has only around 300' of main line, not counting the second track through seven of the on-line towns, nor the industrial spurs and five staging yards. I have no problem running in excess of a dozen locos at a time (usually for the amusement of my grandkids). It helps operation if the layout room is kept clean, and minimises the need for track cleaning - an annual vacuuming of the track usually takes care of that.
Perhaps larger layouts, such as club railroads, benefit from a bus wire, but it seems like a waste of time and materials for most home layouts.
Never had a problem with Atlas just 'gluing' it down. No overcurving first. But soldered two pieces together to make a curve. Attached to the straight on one side of the curve, bend it around, sticking it down with caulk, and holding it in place with a few t-pins until the caulk sets. No kinks. The 'bend back' isn't strong enough to overcome adhesive caulk (more liquidy type glues - yes) on larger radius curves, and absolutely unable to pull t-pins out. And once the caulk has set, it's never going to unspring itself.
The stuff that's hard to bend, like ME - there is pays to pre-form the curve unless the area is easily accessible, so you can form a nice smooth curve by 'walking' down the track gradually curving it to the desired shape to form a smooth curve which it won't do naturally just by grabbing the ends like Atlas.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
LastspikemikeAny brand of flex track can be curved so to take and hold a particular curve without "springing back". The curve can be eased or uniform. It is not easy to create a curve of constant radius using Atlas or Walthers track. Peco and ME can be curved more easily to a tighter radius and will hold that radius without springing back the way Atlas or Walthers will.
LastspikemikeRail joiners are very rigid and will easily hold the joint at a curve unless there remains outward tension in the rails which you should avoid
Respectfully, you have an ability to move the goal posts and then create strawman arguments when you choose to argue. Nobody has disputed these facts, so please stop pretending they are the underpinning of the disagreement.
I would add to your (our) facts by saying that it is even harder to prebend the ends of two pieces of flex track into the same radius with which to then butt them together later.
Which is the point of suggesting to join them together first and bend them as one unit. If you want to joint them together first without the extra benefit of solder, be my guest.
LastspikemikeThe whole idea behind heavier gauge bus wires and frequent feeder attachments is because it is believed that such wire conducts electricity with less voltage drop than soldered rails. Since copper wire conducts electricity better than copper alloyed with nickel that is, as they say, a no brainer. Therefore, soldering rail joints is a waste of time as compared to using rail joiners.
No, that is not the whole idea as it applies to using feeders. The difference in conductive properties between wire and rail is not significant in most layout applications.
Feeders are used primarily as a safeguard against breaks in the electrical path, which often can occur if:
Diluted ballasting glue works its way into unsoldered joiners.
Unsoldered joiners work loose over years of repeated expansion and contraction of benchwork.
Deliberate breaks are created for DC blocks or DCC power districts.
The electrical path within turnouts fails.
The bus and feeder system provides an uninterupted conductive path to the places you want to be powered.
But, as you mentioned before, if you run a feeder to every single piece of track, there is no reason to solder rail joiners. But that would be a waste of time relative to creating an uninterupted path by soldering most joiners.
So here we have another honest question asked by a forum member that had turned into a chest-thumping contest by he who obviously knows very little about model railroading but will never admit he is wrong.
We will never grow the active member population in here if this happens to every honest question, especially questions asked by people who really just need an answer.
DoughlessRespectfully, you have an ability to move the goal posts and then create strawman arguments when you choose to argue. Nobody has disputed these facts, so please stop pretending they are the underpinning of the disagreement.
I've gotten to the point of just skipping over posts by our narcissistic friend. Easier on the brain.
A fellow train guy on another forum has good advice: never argue with a troll, they will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
I recall that this is how Spike learns. He throws out assertions as facts, then steps back to be corrected. Even though he was initially wrong, he hoped he was right, so now he believes that he is righter.
Rich
I think our friend enjoys arguing for its sake. The rest of us who share veridical information about our hobby might just as well take some comfort in our distributed, and otherwise well-received, experience and knowledge, and continue to do so. Anyone who asserts that a soldered joiner is no stronger than a simple joiner clearly doesn’t understand the nature of the materials. Moreover, he can’t be budged from his perch, a position in which I happily leave him.
Soooooooo, is the new Walthers track springy or does it stay put?
Educational institutions have software that picks up the copy and pastes in essays of supposed super brains, maybe the new forum software could have that ability included in it.
In all but the rarest of circumstances, we all use rail joiners.
I don't think the OP's premise was that he was thinking of soldering track together without using joiners, although some probably do that.
Most of the responses assumed he was asking if you solder the joiners on first before bending and installing the track, not whether or not to use joiners at all.
Which is where the goal post stood when I snapped my first post.
LastspikemikeSolder has no stiffness. Solder therefore cannot add any stiffness.
So, I can bend a 1/8" welding rod. Therefore a welded bridge girder has no "stiffness" ??
LastspikemikeTherefore, soldering rail joints is a waste of time as compared to using rail joiners.
LastspikemikeThose are all facts, should anyone wish to check 'em. Received wisdom is often not.
I'm curious now. I propose to put this to the test later tonight. Wish I had one of the Instron tensile testing setups we had at GE back in the day.
I soldered the rail joiners on ALL my Shinohara c83 curved track before securing it in place. That was back in '95 when i first laid the track. All the curves still look smooth and there are no kinks at the joints.
I'm glad I did and I would recommend the practice to anyone laying flex-track today. Most of my "visible" curves are superelevated, too.
PRR_T-E7_sm by Edmund, on Flickr
Not all rail joiners are created equally, either. The actual Shinohara brand are tightly formed and slightly longer than the Atlas type. Micro-Engineering has a very small joiner that is quite short. The Atlas type are "curled" inward and grip the web of the rail but does allow more side-to-side movement. They don't grip the base of the rail very tightly. Much of my tangent track was laid with N scale joiners (I forget which brand) but they gripped the base of the rail tightly.
Soldered rail joiners on curves should be "standard practice" IMHO.
I didn't "overbend" any of the track as I laid it. I kept the rails tangent while soldering the joiners then continued to form the curve as necessary. I started most curves with two, one meter lengths soldered and worked the curve from the center point so the outer rail would "grow" as the ties were coaxed into alignment, then, of course, the longer rail trimmed.
IMG_4576_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
Good Luck, Ed