of course is depends on the size and design of the layout and amount of equipment. but does it depend on the number of operators or the participants?
i have my observations. curious about yours
(yes, trying to separate this issue from another thread)
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
It also depends on your dfenition of 'running'
If I have an automated mine to tipple tram that runs back and forth, does that count as a 'running' train?
On the layout we used to set up when I was a kid, there was a loop throught he town in the middle, where I could set a trolley running and just let it run around the circle throught he town. Plus, in final form, two nested ovals around the outside, with crossovers connecting them., Most sidings were off the inner loop. If a train was turned on and running around the outer loop while I was actively moving cars with the train on the inner loop, were they both 'running'? We also had a section of track up on the mountain where a Lionel section gang car ran - they reversed themselves when hitting a track bumper, so that was just turned on to an appropriate throttle setting and left going by utself - that one 'running' too?
If all of those were considered 'running', then on a slightly larger than 4x8 layout, DC control with no cab control wiring of any sort (each loop had it's own power pack, or in the case of the main inner and outer loops, were each a throttle from a dual pack).
When it comes to DCC - with a Digitrax DT series throttle, I can actually control two locos at a time. Just turn the knob, no recall, or anything like that. I can fire off and leave running, but not under immediate control, many more. With sufficient room, more throttles, and more people, you can run 100 or more. Obviously you need enough boosters to supply the power for those 100+ locos, but other than that, the upper limit tends to be the layout size more than anything. The absolute limit always being more than the realistic limit. Where running 15 trains of 25 cars each might work for a certain layout size, so each train isn't nipping at the previous train's caboose, but they are instead spread out realistically across the layouts in different towns ans switching areas, on that same layout, you COULD run 100 trains of 5 cars each, but they may all be running nose to tail from one end of the main to the other. That's more of a what you CAN run vs what you SHOULD run.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
gregci have my observations. curious about yours
Occasionally I'll have friends over for some informal "operations". A while back my nephew and his friend visited. They each used a Digitrax DT402 and I was using a third. While having six trains running, two each on eastbound and westbound mains and another pair on my "Bessemer" loop.
I was also busy with moving engines around using several UT4d single throttles in addition while my nephew kept an eye on both his main line trains he was making up another also using a UT utility throttle.
While all this was going on I decided to show them how I was sometimes using an Android tablet with the Engine Driver app loaded talking to Loconet through JMRI.
While JMRI was running I opened the "Show Loconet Activity" screen and there was a constant stream of "packets" being displayed on the PC monitor.
Fun stuff to witness. We don't do that very often but it is nice to know the capability is there if needed.
Cheers, Ed
A local model railroad often has op sessions with upwards of 20-22 operators going during a session, 15-17 of them are running trains at any given time.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I have had three trains running at a time while building two in the yard. Once I set the speed it would be hours before a conflict would arise. Usually, I will have two going while I am messing around in the yard. If I am working on the layout, I will have my little 4-4-0 with five cars chugging around the layout, I just have to remember it comes by every 5 or 6 minutes.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Hello All,
I'm a "Lone Wolf" modeler so it's just me and one DCC controller.
On my 4'x8' pike I can run one (1) train, a coal drag headed by four (4) GP40s pulling sixteen (16) 34-foot Tyco operating hoppers on the "mainline loop" continuously.
A second train headed by three (3) GP30s pulls eight (8) 34-foot operating hoppers up a 3% grade to the unloading platform. A critter then helps pull the loaded cars though the unloading shed.
Then a single GP30 from the second train is cut off the head end and pulls the empties down the spiral trestle (helix) to the mainline. The remaining two (2) GP30 back down the 3% grade to receive the empties on a siding.
GE 70- and 44-ton switchers are assigned to the yard that serves coal-fired power plant and receiving dock for the mine.
A single GP35 works the rock dust loading and unloading area along with switching tankers for the diesel and bunker oil fueling stations.
With practice, I can run the two (2) coal drags simultaneously with a separately controlled critter at the loading shed or run the mainline coal drag while doing switching duties.
Depending on your count that's two (2) to three (3) "trains" running at the same time. I would hesitate to use the word "simultaneous" as sometimes there is a required "break in the action".
For a 4'x8' pike that's a lot of action for one person.
Even though I run DCC at times it feels more like I'm running with DC block control.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
assume you have a 100 operators waiting to run trains, each with his own throttle.
what's the limiting element?
consider the following 90x45' layout or larger?
My layout's strictly DC, and I'm the sole operator. Other than the ability to kill power to some portions of the main line (passing tracks) or industrial spurs, there's only one train running at any one time...no multiple blocks, signals or other rigmarole.
If a train is running, I want it in view as much as possible, so walk around the layout room, following it, and unplugging and plugging-in the walk-around tethered throttle as necessary (there are multiple jacks spaced out along the layout's fascia). What's the point of running a train if you're not enjoying watching it run through whatever scenery you've created, or having it do the switching moves you enjoy making?
I usually run multiple locomotives on most trains, due to the many curves and grades (usually both in the same locations). but for especially long trains (50 cars or more) I want to keep a close watch on it, as there will be both slack run-in and run-out occurring at the same time in different parts of the train. At the wrong speed in the wrong location, that can go bad quickly.
I do have passing tracks in all of the towns on the layout, so it's easy enough to park one train in the clear, and then run another past it.If the layout ever gets to a more "finished" stage, trains will operate sequentially, so an operating session might see one train finish its run, while another then starts, but due to time constaints, stops somewhere mid-trip, to be continued in the next session.
I deliberately do not light anything other than the layout room itself - no structures, no passenger cars, and no locomotives, either (lights were not required in daytime in my layout's era), as I want to see what I've built, and enjoy every last bit of it as I follow that train around.
I have no need and no desire to ever run more than one train at a time, and that's why DCC has no appeal to me.
Wayne
i guess there's also a presumption that operators are switching turnouts.
but what if it's CTC? and what if it's not, do you need ABS? which is better? how much better?
gregcsume you have a 100 operators waiting to run trains, each with his own throttle. what's the limiting element?
As in the real world, the speed at which you wish to move traffic. Be it cars on a freeway or trains on track congestion is the limiting factor. IMO.
gregc assume you have a 100 operators waiting to run trains, each with his own throttle. what's the limiting element? consider the following 90x45' layout or larger?
The limiting element is trackage. Is there trackage for train to sit on? Is there trackage for it move onto without conflicting with another train. How long is the train?
The room footprint of a layout says only so much about the amount of track and its ability to handle a given number of trains.
Example - my new layout which will fill a 1500 sq ft room.
My new layout will support operation of 8-10 trains depending. I have 10 throttles.
Four trains on the double track mainline, which will be about 400' long. 250' of that is visable, the rest runs thru hidden staging.
That gives each train about 125' of trackage while visable, which is typically three signal blocks per train. Signal blocks vary from 35' to 60' in length, and are designed around a typical train length of 25' to 30', or about 40 cars, locos and caboose.
The double track mainline is continious, and also has cutoff routes that convert it into four dedicated loops that can be run in dispaly mode.
Then there is the WESTERN MARYLAND line. A single track loop, partly hidden, with a connection to the ATLANTIC CENTRTAL mainline, and with its own hidden staging.
In display mode or operation session mode, this supports one train, which can be easily replaced by others in staging, or it can move onto the ACR mainline.
The ACR passenger terminal will support operation of two trains for arrivals/departures/passenger train switching.
The yard is setup to allow two switchers, one working each end, to operate at the same time.
Connected to the yard, is the engine teminal, and two industrial areas. Trains move directly from the yard to most industries without entering or fouling the mainline.
So, with a crew of 10 operators and a dispatcher, 10 trains can generally keep moving.
In display mode, 5 trains can run on dedicated loops while two operators can work the yard/industrial areas.
And all of this is done in DC, with wireless throttles, and no "toggle flipping". It does use an Advance Cab Control system that simulates CTC.
And the mainline can be run with a dispatcher, or with operators acting as their own "tower operators".
In CTC mode with a dispatcher, operators do not have to assign throttles or throw turnouts, they simply control their train and obey the signals.
Sheldon
gregc i guess there's also a presumption that operators are switching turnouts. but what if it's CTC? and what if it's not, do you need ABS? which is better? how much better?
Which is better depends on your goals, I prefer CTC.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe limiting element is trackage. Is there trackage for train to sit on? Is there trackage for it move onto without conflicting with another train
I would have said the limiting factor would be the sidings. Can a train switch out cars without blocking other trains. Dispatching is handy, too.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
SpaceMouse ATLANTIC CENTRAL The limiting element is trackage. Is there trackage for train to sit on? Is there trackage for it move onto without conflicting with another train I would have said the limiting factor would be the sidings. Can a train switch out cars without blocking other trains. Dispatching is handy, too.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The limiting element is trackage. Is there trackage for train to sit on? Is there trackage for it move onto without conflicting with another train
In my case the mainlne is double track, and very few industrial sidings are along the mainline, most are on "industrial belt lines" which are like small industrial switching layouts located in the bigger layout, and they do not tie up the main.
I model big time railroading in the 50's, most mainline trains do not switch cars at sidings.
Mainline trains are just that, blocks of cars leaving a yard in one city destined for a yard in another city.
My operating scheme does have two locals which switch the few industies located along the main. And both of those locations have secondary trackage keeping the actual "switching" off the mainline.
The problem with the OP's question, is "operation" is not defined.
For me, both prototype simulation and display running are both important forms of "operation".
Space for the trains will be the limiting factor. Ken McCorry's layout is significantly larger and I don't think he has 100 operators all runnign simultaneously. In his case, it might be space for the operators, with a bigger footprint plus 3 decks, there may be plenty of room for trains, especially considering some operators will be working yard jobs and not running out on the main. Even designing such that there aren't two or three switchign areas stacked on the decks, and with nice wide aisles, once you get enough trains going, there are people everywhere.
DCC capacities may come into play with over 100. Depends on the system, Digitrax sets hard limits ont he number of locos in their command stations, total number depends on the model being used, 20, 100, or 400. NCE doesn;t set a hard limit, but there IS only so much memory in the command station, so while they never state one, there MUST be one. NCE can't handle 100 throttles, so you are sort of out of luck there, unless you go WiThrottle - running through JMRI, 10 smartphone throttles are seen by the system as only 1 actual throttle. Digitrax has the same limit on throttles on the command station as locos. Power too, but that can be solved by dividing the layout up into more power districts and adding boosters - 100 trains running is going to be 50+ amps total power just for the locos, plus if current detection is used and all cars have resistor wheels, enough cars to fill out 100 trains will be a noticeable amount.
It's not likely any of these new WiFI or Bluetooth control systems can actually handle that many without radio interference. Even just using Wifi wireless throttles with otherwise standard DCC - if you're going to have 100 users, you better get a commercial access point and not your typical Linksys/Netgear home device - it will choke, absolutely, with that many devices connected.
A. Choke points;
B. length of sidings vs length of consists; and
C. on a model layout, power supply.
i think that even if you have short trains and unless you're just running a bunch of locos behind one another from around a loop or from one staging area to another, it think it comes down to the ability to align the routes for each train and keeping them moving.
in our case, it comes down to the CTC operator's (we call him dispatcher) ability to do that and the scheduler to select trains that optimally use the available trackage without getting blocked by another train. if a train (A) were to block, could another (B) have been run that wouldn't have been blocked, perhaps in the opposite direction and delay (A) so that it's not blocked.
i think this is where string diagrams illustrate the issue. very simple one below
i assume railroads like airlines, pay ($$) special attention to this, to maximize use of trackage and having equipment available where/when they need it to maximize the tonnage moved.
ironically, it appears scheduling sub-optimally may be more desirable for entertainment value.
gregc i think that even if you have short trains and unless you're just running a bunch of locos behind one another from around a loop or from one staging area to another, it think it comes down to the ability to align the routes for each train and keeping them moving. in our case, it comes down to the CTC operator's (we call him dispatcher) ability to do that and the scheduler to select trains that optimally use the available trackage without getting blocked by another train. if a train (A) were to block, could another (B) have been run that wouldn't have been blocked, perhaps in the opposite direction and delay (A) so that it's not blocked. i think this is where string diagrams illustrate the issue. very simple one below i assume railroads like airlines, pay ($$) special attention to this, to maximize use of trackage and having equipment available where/when they need it to maximize the tonnage moved. ironically, it appears scheduling sub-optimally may be more desirable for entertainment value.
Yes he is normally called a dispatcher.
And railroads have been using schedules called timetables for a long time, what's the big deal?
Before two way radios, computers, cell phones, GPS, etc, railroads were compelled to use other means to prevent two trains from trying to occupy the same place at the same time.
Regional CTC dispatchers, tower operators, station agents, land line telephone/telegraph, signals and timetables all worked to maximize track use and still be safe.
Here in the little town I live in, the mighty PRR Northeast Corridor crosses the mighty Susquehanna River. One of my friends models the PRR as it was in Baltimore in 1947. The timetables from that year show that a PRR train crossed the Susquehanna every 8-12 minutes nearly 24 hours a day.
That is a train every 20 minutes eastbound and a train every 20 minutes westbound. It is not that busy today...........
While single track railroading always has represented the majority of operations in North America, double track was pretty common in the northeast in the mid 20th century.
Double track is a different kind of operation, and it lends itself to the selective compression of a model railroad if you want "busy".
It sure would be nice to understand your question better?
But I do believe track plans should be developed for the desired operation, not the other way around.......
Greg,
Maybe I forgot to ask the most important question? Why so many possible routes?
In my opinion, model railroads don't led themselves to effectively representing too many multiple routes, other than to have a train take an alternate route at a junction and then "leave the stage" into a staging area.
My new layout will provide three such opportunities but will make no effort to model the rest of those routes.
Just my view, but I think trying model "both ends of the line" is a track planning mistake, no matter how big the layout. I have 1500 sq ft, but I am only modeling one small city and few miles either side of it.
My PRR modeling friend has three decks in a 1400 sq ft basement, and he is only modeling the PRR as it passes thru Baltimore.
I had a moderate sized layout designed for fun rather than unattended operation. There was an isolated subway loop that didn't interact with the surface trains. As a single operator, I could deal with two additional trains, either both on the main loop chasing each other's tails of both on the main loop running in opposite directions with meets, or one train just looping while I did switching with another.
It was a good sized layout, but two trains were enough to handle for one person.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Lastspikemike I suggest "running" means "operating." As in under an engineers control but not as in prototypical but as in practical. Can one operator run x number of trains while exerting adequate control over each one? Clearly a train can be set to run indefinitely with no-one in control, that's not really a helpful discussion for me at any rate. The appeal of DCC is the ability to run more than one train on track powered from one power source, there are very variable and often modest wiring advantages and significant operational advantages. How much DCC capability does a single operator layout really need, assuming the practical limit is the operator, not the software. By operating I would include stationary locomotives that are running and ready to move, such as during passing siding maneuvers or simulated refuelling/watering/sanding. To gauge the appeal of DCC in this context all the locomotives one operator would like to be able to move at a moment's notice is what interests me. DCC allows stationary locomotives to sit steaming away or idling away concurrently with others actually moving. DC does not allow that, well except for DCC locomotives being operated in DC mode which can be at zero speed but not "switched off" I have noticed if the throttle is very carefully set (the starting voltage for sound is just below that for movement, interestingly).
I suggest "running" means "operating." As in under an engineers control but not as in prototypical but as in practical. Can one operator run x number of trains while exerting adequate control over each one?
Clearly a train can be set to run indefinitely with no-one in control, that's not really a helpful discussion for me at any rate.
The appeal of DCC is the ability to run more than one train on track powered from one power source, there are very variable and often modest wiring advantages and significant operational advantages. How much DCC capability does a single operator layout really need, assuming the practical limit is the operator, not the software.
By operating I would include stationary locomotives that are running and ready to move, such as during passing siding maneuvers or simulated refuelling/watering/sanding.
To gauge the appeal of DCC in this context all the locomotives one operator would like to be able to move at a moment's notice is what interests me. DCC allows stationary locomotives to sit steaming away or idling away concurrently with others actually moving. DC does not allow that, well except for DCC locomotives being operated in DC mode which can be at zero speed but not "switched off" I have noticed if the throttle is very carefully set (the starting voltage for sound is just below that for movement, interestingly).
I don't think you have any understanding of what has, and can be done with advanced DC control systems.
Before I say more, understand, I think for most people today DCC is the best choice, for a number of reasons, but for me personally it is not a good choice.
On my old layout, and the new one I am starting soon, 25-30 complete trains are stored in hidden staging tracks.
4 trains can be operated on the double track mainline at one time, it is about 400 feet long counting the part hidden where the staging is.
But we have a rule, one engineer - one train.
I will put 5 trains on dedicated loops and let them run, but no way am I trying to actually "operate" two or more trains.
I agree with Sheldon. I personally can onlu actively control one train, DC or DCC. alone at the layout, or a group session.
My next layout is designed for three trains to run at once, with me as the lone-wolf operator.
Two will be running on a double-track display loop, and I have control of a third, the fun one.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
My layout is designed to handle five or six trains at once, not counting off-mainline moves (yard switching and such). But it's real limit is the number of mainline operators. One train per operator is the rule. When I'm alone I might be able to handle two or three if I'm just "roundy-rounding."
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhy so many possible routes?
the string diagram is for a far simpler layout than the one i posted
that layout posted has 3 staging areas connected with common trackage so trains can be blocked awaiting a train to pass thru and clear a junctioin and the dispatcher has his hands full monitoring various junctions
while i agree track design may optimize capacity, presumably there are bottle necks
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL Why so many possible routes? the string diagram is for a far simpler layout than the one i posted that layout posted has 3 staging areas connected with common trackage so trains can be blocked awaiting a train to pass thru and clear a junctioin and the dispatcher has his hands full monitoring various junctions while i agree track design may optimize capacity, presumably there are bottle necks
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Why so many possible routes?
The prototype uses multiple people to handle complex busy trackage.....
The club layout you posted is a typical old school spaghetti bowl of track in my opinion with no visual continuity of direction of travel.
I think I have offered all I can here.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe club layout you posted is a typical old school spaghetti bowl of track in my opinion with no visual continuity of direction of travel.
did you look at the schematic on the bottom of the diagram?
I didnt see it lissted. but dont forget the size of your power source can dictate train capacity. Remember the MRC tech 2 ads. Boasting 25 locomotive capacity or the one with 100 HO locomotives pulling a prototype tank car? the power draw of the locomotives can also be factors in your operation and train numbers.
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
NVSRRbut dont forget the size of your power source can dictate train capacity.
things like that can be handled by increasing capacity, adding more power districts and number of circuit breakers
but i think you can't increased the capability of the dispatcher, in our case with a single piece of software controlling the layout.
i wonder if LCC, which targets very large layouts support multiple dispatchers
Dispatching is entirely dependent on what the trains do. If you build the layout to handle running 50-60 trains a session then dispatching isn't a problem.
To a certain extent this is another one of those "how long is a string?" questions. You can overload a layout with two trains or you can design one to to run 30-40 trains simultaneously.