Trains.com

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad Part 2

17379 views
163 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    February 2001
  • From: Wyoming, where men are men, and sheep are nervous!
  • 3,120 posts
Posted by Pruitt on Monday, May 24, 2021 11:57 AM

Holy cow, Chip (get it? cowchip? haha)

Seriously, that's a big slap in the face! If it's not too personal, what do the docs say? Will you make a full recovery? Stage 4 cancer of any type is a big scare. My late wife died of stage 4 breast cancer a few years ago, and a friend died of colon cancer about 20 years ago.

Tell us they say you'll fully recover. Please.

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Rimrock, Arizona
  • 11,241 posts
Posted by SpaceMouse on Monday, May 24, 2021 11:40 AM

Hi guys,

Turns out I was wrong in my self-diagnosis last you heard. On Dec. 29, I was admitted to the hospital with a pulmonary embolism. The doctor in the ER said it was the worst they had ever seen and so they carted me off to a better faciity in Flagstaff where I spent 2 weeks in and out of the ICU. Turns out, the embolisms were caused by stage 4 colon cancer. I'm now on chemo--in fact, that's what I'm doing now. Fun stuff.

The good news is I haven't felt better in months, despite the chemo. And I seem to be getting better every day. Hopefully I'll be back working on the layout shortly. Sorry it took so long to post this.  

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Vancouver Island, BC
  • 23,106 posts
Posted by selector on Sunday, November 15, 2020 3:55 PM

It's good news to hear, Chip.  I have never had a lingering condition or illness, unless weight gain counts.  Been there.  I also know that COVID-19 can linger horribly for a few sufferers, and I have friends whose cold or flu seemed to have nasty effects for two or three months.  You'll be very pleased to see the hind end of this one, for sure, and be glad to get back to enjoying living. Cool

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Rimrock, Arizona
  • 11,241 posts
Posted by SpaceMouse on Sunday, November 15, 2020 10:56 AM

rrebell
Yeah there are a few other bugs going around, sister just had one like yours.

Yeah, I got one like this 3 years ago. Hung on for months.

 

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: west coast
  • 7,030 posts
Posted by rrebell on Friday, November 13, 2020 9:08 AM

SpaceMouse

Hi everyone, 

I just wanted to let you all know I'm alive if in some what diminished capacity. I have some sort of lung infection, although rest assured it is not the Big C or Little C for that matter. But I cough a lot of mucus and just slept 16 of the last 17 hours. 

Other things are piling up as well, it's already started raining and I have a large portion of the exterior wall I need to stucco. Also, I got my book back from my editor and I have a lot of work to do with her on that. 

Just saying the Rock Ridge Railroad is in suspended animation for the time being. 

 

Yeah there are a few other bugs going around, sister just had one like yours.

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Reading, PA
  • 30,002 posts
Posted by rrinker on Thursday, November 12, 2020 11:00 AM

It can't be more'n hunnert 'n fourteen!

(about all I can post from that scene these days)

                          --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Rimrock, Arizona
  • 11,241 posts
Posted by SpaceMouse on Thursday, November 12, 2020 9:33 AM

rrinker
Finally, a chance for me to catch up.....

Well. quit lollygagging.

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Reading, PA
  • 30,002 posts
Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 6:59 PM

 Finally, a chance for me to catch up......

 

...who am I kidding, you even have a train running, I don't even have any subroadbed in place, let alone track.

                                       --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Rimrock, Arizona
  • 11,241 posts
Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 3:11 PM

Hi everyone, 

I just wanted to let you all know I'm alive if in some what diminished capacity. I have some sort of lung infection, although rest assured it is not the Big C or Little C for that matter. But I cough a lot of mucus and just slept 16 of the last 17 hours. 

Other things are piling up as well, it's already started raining and I have a large portion of the exterior wall I need to stucco. Also, I got my book back from my editor and I have a lot of work to do with her on that. 

Just saying the Rock Ridge Railroad is in suspended animation for the time being. 

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Rimrock, Arizona
  • 11,241 posts
Posted by SpaceMouse on Wednesday, October 21, 2020 9:49 AM

Pruitt
Only Chip can tell us what the differences are.

I think I was right before. The reason the coefficient of friction increases with a decrease in turn radius is that binding increases. If you are running engines that don't bind on a 16" radius, like the little 0-6-0, you don't get the increase in friction. 

LDSIG, and I'm surmising now, had to have some testing standard to eleminate variables. For instance, they chose 3 representative engines, say a GP38, a 2-8-0, and a 4-8-4. and ran their tests. This would yield a plausable formula. 

On my layout, I have only small steam and half that is geared. You can't expect the same results. 

Edit: I tried to find the design methodology for the calculations on the LDSIG website, but was unable. 

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

  • Member since
    February 2001
  • From: Wyoming, where men are men, and sheep are nervous!
  • 3,120 posts
Posted by Pruitt on Tuesday, October 20, 2020 9:12 PM

rrinker
 This is where I have to call out the various formulas for grade compensation in a curve. According to one more relaxed version, the equivalent grade on that 16" radius curve would be well over 4%. Granted there is more friction for the loco drivers as well, but if that loco can't pull 1 car up a 3% grade, no way is it going to pull 9 up a 2.25% curve on a 16" radius curve if these compensation formulas are actually valid.

 I've always felt the exaggerated the effect of curves, but with no grades on my last two layouts, I had no way to test it. Here is some empirical evidence that curves as sharp as 16" radius do not nearly double the effective grade as the formulas would have you believe - One puts actual grade = grade + (28/radius), which makes the 2.25% actual grade into 4%, and the ogirinal formula is actual grade = grade + (32/radius) which would put the effective grade at 4.25%! Not a chance this loco could pull 9 cars up that if it can't pull 1 on a 3% tangent.

                                   --Randy

The second formula, CG (compensated grade) = G (grade) + 32 / R (curve radius) was generated by John Allen back in the late 1940's / early 1950's (no one is sure of the exact date). That equation was based on empirical data - he did many experiments with grade and various radii to develop it.

Decades later, the LDSIG (Layout Design Special Interest Group) started with John's formula and did additional testing using more modern equipment (and methodologies, from what I understand) and revised the formula to the first one you quoted: CG=G+28/R. 

You're right that one car on a 3% grade doesn't match with seven (not nine) on a 3.95% compensated grade. Something else is different between the two situations (Bullfrog Snot?). Only Chip can tell us what the differences are.

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Rimrock, Arizona
  • 11,241 posts
Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, October 20, 2020 5:27 PM

rrinker
Does the curve have an effect? It has to, especially below a certain radius when the taper of the wheels can't compensate. But I don't think it's nearly as bad as reported. 

I think when you talk about friction you have to consider all the factors. I don't think I've seen any calculations where the length of wheel base on the locos or rolling stock is taken into account. 

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Reading, PA
  • 30,002 posts
Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, October 20, 2020 3:57 PM

 This is where I have to call out the various formulas for grade compensation in a curve. According to one more relaxed version, the equivalent grade on that 16" radius curve would be well over 4%. Granted there is more friction for the loco drivers as well, but if that loco can't pull 1 car up a 3% grade, no way is it going to pull 9 up a 2.25% curve on a 16" radius curve if these compensation formulas are actually valid.

 I've always felt the exaggerated the effect of curves, but with no grades on my last two layouts, I had no way to test it. Here is some empirical evidence that curves as sharp as 16" radius do not nearly double the effective grade as the formulas would have you believe - One puts actual grade = grade + (28/radius), which makes the 2.25% actual grade into 4%, and the ogirinal formula is actual grade = grade + (32/radius) which would put the effective grade at 4.25%! Not a chance this loco could pull 9 cars up that if it can't pull 1 on a 3% tangent.

 Does the curve have an effect? It has to, especially below a certain radius when the taper of the wheels can't compensate. But I don't think it's nearly as bad as reported. 

                                   --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    October 2020
  • 2,383 posts
Posted by NorthBrit on Tuesday, October 20, 2020 1:30 PM

I bet it is like Lil  Huffy saying thanks for making the  grade easier.  Laugh

David

To the world you are someone.    To someone you are the world

I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Rimrock, Arizona
  • 11,241 posts
Posted by SpaceMouse on Monday, October 19, 2020 6:12 PM

You'll never believe how much difference 3/4 of 1% will make on a grade. You remember Lil Huffy, who got his name huffing and puffing one car up a straight 3% grade? 

Well, this is Lil Huffy on a 16" turn on a 2.25% grade.

If you counted the cars he was pulling and came up with six, it's because you missed the black tank car in front of the orange tank car.

Lil Huffy pulled all 7 cars up to the top, rang the bell, and rolled back down here to pose for this picture. 

My accomplishments pale in comparison. I layed the first 18 feet of track on the grade and fine tuned it a little. That will get me out of the tunnel on the grade. 

All that leaves before I can put on the second level is staging.

Speaking of staging, I got the roadbed installed. Unfortunately, I'll run out of Fast Ties for my Fast Tracks turnouts before I can finish. I'll also run out of ground throws. 

I have an idea for the ties. Ground throws will take money. 

On the flip side, the layout got a thorough sweeping out. That's not all that glamourous, but I feel a lot better. 

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Rimrock, Arizona
  • 11,241 posts
Posted by SpaceMouse on Monday, October 19, 2020 10:15 AM

Believe it or not, I'm okay with not getting everything done at once. I do want everything done so I can run the layout the way it was meant to be run, but I don't mind too terribly much doing the work.

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Bradford, Ontario
  • 14,038 posts
Posted by hon30critter on Sunday, October 18, 2020 11:04 PM

SpaceMouse
Tomorrow, I'll keep on keeping on.

Absolutely Chip!

So far you have done pretty good! Keep it up, and don't feel guilty if you take a couple of days off!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Rimrock, Arizona
  • 11,241 posts
Posted by SpaceMouse on Sunday, October 18, 2020 7:53 PM

Of course, it doesn't help that for the last two days I chose life over layout. But sometimes there are things you gotta do because having food depends on it, and other things you gotta do because you couldn't figure a way out of it. 

The thing is, what you expect to get done and what actually gets done are different. In fact, the difference is an order of magnitude.

Today I fixed what our Brit friends would call a curved blade. Then I installed the roadbed and sub-roadbed for the part of grade that will be in a tunnel. 

 That's it. What? You expected something more?

I did. 

I thought I get the above done, and lay the cork sheeting in the staging yard and the classification yard, and get the foam installed in the town part of the layout.

LaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh

It's like LOL out loud. 

Here's a progress shot. 

Coos Bay Lumber #1, and soon to be Rock Ridge Lumber #2, is anxiously waiting for a chance to show everyone what he can do. 

Once the track is in place, old CB#1 is all I have to test the track. My Climax doesn't have a decoder. My Shay has problems with its  sideframe assemblies. I haven't assembled any log cars yet, and the ore cars, I haven't even ordered. So the Heisler is it. 

Turns out I layed 18 feet of sub-roadbed and roadbed. I predict it will clear the tunnel at about 15 feet. But I can't really tell until the top layer is in place. 

Tomorrow, I'll keep on keeping on.

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Rimrock, Arizona
  • 11,241 posts
Posted by SpaceMouse on Sunday, October 18, 2020 2:07 PM

NorthBrit
Our Point Blades =  Your points.

Blades! That's right. 

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

  • Member since
    October 2020
  • 2,383 posts
Posted by NorthBrit on Sunday, October 18, 2020 1:27 PM

SpaceMouse
David

 

What you call points, we call turnouts. 

In the US, "points" are the two rails of the turnout that move. One is curved, the other is straight. I don't know what you call them. 

 

Ah! Sorry!   I forgot.   

Our Points = your turnouts

Our Point Blades =  Your points.

 

I'll try not to forget. Smile

David

To the world you are someone.    To someone you are the world

I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Rimrock, Arizona
  • 11,241 posts
Posted by SpaceMouse on Sunday, October 18, 2020 12:50 PM

David

Not saying it is the problem/solution, but here in the UK  we avoid curved points.  They cause modelers no end of challenges and are ditched within weeks of buying.

David

We're having an across the pond linguistic anomaly. 

What you call points, we call turnouts. 

In the US, "points" are the two rails of the turnout that move. One is curved, the other is straight. I don't know what you call them. 

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

  • Member since
    October 2020
  • 2,383 posts
Posted by NorthBrit on Sunday, October 18, 2020 12:42 PM

Not saying it is the problem/solution, but here in the UK  we avoid curved points.  They cause modelers no end of challenges and are ditched within weeks of buying.

David

To the world you are someone.    To someone you are the world

I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Rimrock, Arizona
  • 11,241 posts
Posted by SpaceMouse on Sunday, October 18, 2020 12:34 PM

Randy
To which side would you apply said blob? On the stock rail side - the point won't close fuilly. To the center - you will end up with a finely filed point of soft solder which will not withstand much use before deforming.

Luckily, the split was low near the bottom rail, so no filing of solder was needed near the top rail point. So far it is working. SP 1600 rolls through without so much as a hop.

BTW: It is the curved point. 

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Reading, PA
  • 30,002 posts
Posted by rrinker on Sunday, October 18, 2020 11:01 AM

Overmod

 

 
SpaceMouse
I know what I have to do. I have to pull the turnout and build and install a new point.

 

Would soldering a small blob of hard solder to the damaged point and judiciously filing it not fix the issue without more drastic fabricating?

 

 

To which side would you apply said blob? On the stock rail side - the point won't close fuilly. To the center - you will end up with a finely filed point of soft solder which will not withstand much use before deforming.

 Replacement is the way to go. It theoretically could be done in place, with the help of some 3 point track gauges. Can't exactly drop it back in the assembly fixture, once the wood ties are in place to fill in between all the PCB ties used to located the rail. If it's the curved side, pre-bend it using the fixture. If it's the straight side, you lucked out.

                                --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    January 2017
  • From: Southern Florida Gulf Coast
  • 15,357 posts
Posted by SeeYou190 on Sunday, October 18, 2020 10:18 AM

SpaceMouse
I know what I have to do. I have to pull the turnout and build and install a new point. But I spent the afternoon telling myself that only one out of 10 times isn't bad.

I have been there. After all that work I try to convince myself it "isn't that bad" and I can leave it.

Pulling it out and fixing it is the right thing to do.

You will never regret fixing it right.

-Kevin

Living the dream and happily modeling my STRATTON AND GILLETTE Railroad in HO scale. The SGRR is a freelanced Class A railroad as it would have appeared on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954, in my personal fantasy world of plausible nonsense.

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Rimrock, Arizona
  • 11,241 posts
Posted by SpaceMouse on Sunday, October 18, 2020 10:00 AM

NorthBrit
Try a wider radius on the curve a colleague said.   I doubted it, but made  the curve a bigger radius anyway.   Success.   I do not know why, but who cares. 

The turnout (point) has another turnout in front of it off the turn, so it effectively on a straight. 

But thanks for the suggestion. 

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Rimrock, Arizona
  • 11,241 posts
Posted by SpaceMouse on Sunday, October 18, 2020 9:57 AM

Overmod
 
SpaceMouse
I know what I have to do. I have to pull the turnout and build and install a new point.

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 18,750 posts
Posted by Overmod on Sunday, October 18, 2020 7:00 AM

SpaceMouse
I know what I have to do. I have to pull the turnout and build and install a new point.

Would soldering a small blob of hard solder to the damaged point and judiciously filing it not fix the issue without more drastic fabricating?

  • Member since
    October 2020
  • 2,383 posts
Posted by NorthBrit on Sunday, October 18, 2020 6:53 AM

Hi Chip.   An interesting piece of modeling.  

Regarding an engine always coming off the rail at a certain section?

I had one locomotive that would alwayderail on arriving at a turnout after a curve. Every other loco, carriage or truck was okay.  I could find no answer.

Try a wider radius on the curve a colleague said.   I doubted it, but made  the curve a bigger radius anyway.   Success.   I do not know why, but who cares. Big Smile

Happy modeling.

David

 

To the world you are someone.    To someone you are the world

I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Rimrock, Arizona
  • 11,241 posts
Posted by SpaceMouse on Thursday, October 15, 2020 7:42 PM

On my third day of track tuning the main--all 29 feet and 5 turnouts of it. 

And...with a little filing and a little grinding, I've tuned the track so that all my engines and all my rolling stock can go backwards and forwards in both directions--except for SP 1600 (undecorated and pre-lettered) who will pick the opposite point about every tenth time. 

The problem is the point is so sharp that it split between the top and bottom rails. If the loco hits it right, it takes the scenic route (into the scenery.) 

I know what I have to do. I have to pull the turnout and build and install a new point. But I spent the afternoon telling myself that only one out of 10 times isn't bad.

But I'll do it first thing in the morning before the coffee kicks in and I can mount a plausible argument against it. 

If it works and tests okay, I'll lay the roadbed for staging and the first third of the grade up the mountain--all of which are in a tunnel. Then I can scenic and cover the tunnel, and only then can I work on the exposed paers of the layout. 

Tunnel stuff affects how the scenery lays out which affects the location of features such as bridges and tressles. 

But I won't leave you high and dry today. 

SP 1600 easily negociates the formerly dastardly Happy Curve, dragging a load of Liliputians from San Francisco to Rock Ridge, Eureka and whistle-stops in between. 

 

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Users Online

Search the Community

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
Model Railroader Newsletter See all
Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox!