Trains.com

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Where Does Mainline Ballast End and Yard Ballast Begin?

11709 views
40 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, June 2, 2020 9:43 PM

Thanks for that reply, Wayne. I might try some limestone dust.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: Canada, eh?
  • 13,375 posts
Posted by doctorwayne on Monday, June 1, 2020 7:28 PM

richhotrain
...Your application of very fine limestone "gravel" (i.e., limestone dust) interests me. Is there a hobby-related source for the purchase of limestone dust?...

Sorry for the late reply, Rich, but I attempted, over four hours-or-so last night to compose a reply, but the screen disappeared several times, and most of the rest of the time was frozen.  I could get a sentence or two in, then it locked-up again.  Of course, photobucket still has a few issues to improve, so I managed, at that time, to include only one photo.

Anyway, I'll show you the three grades of limestone, then, if I can continue, will fill in with some related info.

The good news is that the limestone is not a hobby product.  I got mine at a local lumberyard - don't recall the price, but it wasn't outrageous, for three 50lb. bags of limestone screenings.  Likely cheaper than three bags of HO scale real rock ballast.  This is the stuff one would use to lay brick or concrete paver-stones.

However, running it through a seive (I used four or five, with each successive one finer than the previous) yields various useful sizes.

Here's the coarsest - good shape and colour, but likely suitable only for rock-fill in low-lying areas due to its size - the guy in the container is HO scale for comparison....

Here's the size I use as ballast...

Unfortunately, there was a lot of really fine stuff in with it, and I couldn't find a seive with a fine-enough mesh to let the dust portion through, and retain the ballast. 
I finally 'phoned my friend in Ohio, who had given me some ballast made from the same material, to ask how he sorted the dust from the ballast.  The answer was...a spatter guard, used atop a frying pan full of bacon to keep the stove from being covered in grease...I guess you could lick it off, if you didn't have a spatter guard...after all. it's bacon!

Anyway, I quickly ran off to Canadian Tire (who'd-a-thunk-it?) and picked one up.  Here's the mostly-dust portion from a bag of screenings...

The one caveat when doing this screening is to do it outdoors.  Engrossed in seive management and quality control, I never noticed, as I worked in the layout room, how much dust it created in the air, and spent several days later cleaning the entire layout and layout room.

I'm pretty sure that I included some of the dust portion on the track in the lower left in the photo below, along with some real dirt (literally in powder-form), ground foam, and static grass...

I'll end this for now, before everything gets squirrely again  and freezes-up.

Wayne

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, May 31, 2020 8:10 PM

richhotrain
 
doctorwayne

I applied more very fine limestone "gravel" (it was actually limestone dust), along with some powdered dirt, again, so fine that it could be called dust

Wayne  

Your application of very fine limestone "gravel" (i.e., limestone dust) interests me. Is there a hobby-related source for the purchase of limestone dust?

Rich 

I started researching "limestone dust" through a Google search. Somewhat surprisingly, I did find some sources such as this one.

https://www.makeyourown.buzz/calcium-carbonate-ground-limestone/?gclid=CjwKCAjwq832BRA5EiwACvCWsZZ6UFFJG6PTCeJ2-_tsNtUcQpbKiM-ArfdolOgero9_MPBIHK72gRoCMAQQAvD_BwE

I have no idea of the size or grade of this "dust", but it does interest me as a way to add accent to the traditional ballast for yard ballasting.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, May 31, 2020 6:31 PM

doctorwayne

You're right, Rich, getting ground cover, especially ballast or dirt, level on flat, open, expanses is difficult.  Sometimes I do a fairly thin application, wet it, and apply the glue... 

...then come back after it's set, and add light second application to fill-in the low spots...

This empty lot, destined to serve a team track...

...looked like a real mess initially...

...but after it dried (it took several days), I applied more very fine limestone "gravel" (it was actually limestone dust), along with some powdered dirt, again, so fine that it could be called dust, then added some finely-ground foam and some static grass, and it turned out, I think, not too badly...

Wayne 

Good looking layout photos, Wayne. 

Having sprinkled the yard ballast with my fingers to create an even, level look and glued it in place, I plan to go back and add light second application to provide a finished look.

Your application of very fine limestone "gravel" (i.e., limestone dust) interests me. Is there a hobby-related source for the purchase of limestone dust?

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: 4610 Metre's North of the Fortyninth on the left coast of Canada
  • 9,352 posts
Posted by BATMAN on Sunday, May 31, 2020 1:02 PM

Even a yard track will look reasonably spiffy when first put in, that being said, washes using a multitude of colours will age and pollute it in a hurry. Sprinkling tile grout and other fine powders before hand also add to the affect. Tile grout makes great yard muck.

Brent

"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."

  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: Canada, eh?
  • 13,375 posts
Posted by doctorwayne on Sunday, May 31, 2020 12:52 PM

You're right, Rich, getting ground cover, especially ballast or dirt, level on flat, open, expanses is difficult.  Sometimes I do a fairly thin application, wet it, and apply the glue...

 

...then come back after it's set, and add light second application to fill-in the low spots...

 

This empty lot, destined to serve a team track...

...looked like a real mess initially...

...but after it dried (it took several days), I applied more very fine limestone "gravel" (it was actually limestone dust), along with some powdered dirt, again, so fine that it could be called dust, then added some finely-ground foam and some static grass, and it turned out, I think, not too badly...

Wayne

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, May 31, 2020 6:38 AM

wp8thsub

I would suggest avoiding the Wodland Scenics products entirely. I don't care for how they look on industry track, and I very much dislike how they are to spread and glue compared to real rock.  I haven't seen much prototype ballast that looks anything like WS brown, at least not on any industry spurs. 

Industry track often has much finer ballast than mainlines.  It also tends to vary from place to place, so using one brand and color may be unrealistic.

For purposes of mainline ballasting, I agree that real rock is the way to go, having long used Woodland Scenics walnut shells bur more recently using Scenic Express real rock. The density and slope required to model mainline ballast really requires something heavier like real rock as opposed to lignter weight material such as walnut shells.

But, I'm not so sure that Woodland Scenics ballast ought to be avoided entirely, particularly when looking for some sort of material for yard ballasting where you simply need a covering over essentially a flat surface.

I have found in researching ballast that Woodland Scenics has a more extensive selection of ballast colors in their product line than does Scenic Express which offers mostly light gray and dark gray in its product line. Arizona Rock & Mineral does seem to offer more different color ballast in its product line, so maybe that is a better option than Scenic Express if you want more choice of color. 

I do agree with wp8thsub that Woodland Scenics Brown is not a realistic looking color for yards. However, Woodland Scenics Dark Brown is not all that bad looking, especially if it is blended with Woodland Scenics Cinders which creates a better look of something like a dirt surface.

wp8thsub

Here the industry tracks have a similar look, with the spurs blending with the sand ground cover around them and the main track and siding using other ballast (from Scenic Express) with more uniform color, plus a slightly coarser texture. 

I have found that the need for yard ballast is much more complex than the selection of mainline ballast in terms of source and color. I think that wp8thsub's yards are among the best and most realistic ballasted yards on this forum, if not the best. However, wp8thsub is using more natural materials such as sand to capture the look of the prototype.

I haven't found that Scenic Express or Woodland Scenics has anything to offer in HO scale to create a believable ballasted yard. The closest that I have come is a blend of Woodland Scenics Fine Gray and Buff Ballast.

To create a level surface for the yard ballast, I have literally sprinkled the ballast over the entire yard surface with my fingers to avoid unintended mounds when simply pouring the ballast out of the bottle or spooning it on the surface. Then I heavily spray the the entire area with 70% isopropyl alcohol and apply a matte medium glue mix to secure it.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    November 2002
  • From: US
  • 2,455 posts
Posted by wp8thsub on Saturday, May 30, 2020 4:20 PM

SBX
I have a 5' x 10" switching layout and was going to ballast with WS grey ballast. Should I replace that with WS brown ballast?

I would suggest avoiding the Wodland Scenics products entirely. I don't care for how they look on industry track, and I very much dislike how they are to spread and glue compared to real rock.  I haven't seen much prototype ballast that looks anything like WS brown, at least not on any industry spurs.

DSC00358

by wp8thsub, on Flickr

Industry track often has much finer ballast than mainlines.  It also tends to vary from place to place, so using one brand and color may be unrealistic.

The above tracks on the BNSF in Lamar, CO show variation from a gray on the main, to mostly dirt on the spurs.  Fine sand can be had as play sand, paver material, or products intended for other uses at a home center, or you can dig it up yourself.  It can be mixed here and there with ballast from other sources to provide variation.  Note above how the basic ground cover around the tracks blends with the spurs.

Cenex-Fuel Spots

by wp8thsub, on Flickr

Here the industry tracks have a similar look, with the spurs blending with the sand ground cover around them and the main track and siding using other ballast (from Scenic Express) with more uniform color, plus a slightly coarser texture.

 

Rob Spangler

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, May 30, 2020 7:58 AM

SBX

That's good because I have a fresh bottle of WS fine grey ballast. Saves me asking my LHS to deliver one bottle (I am shielding which means that I cannot leave my apartment!). 

I think that the Woodland Scenics Fine Gray Ballast will look real good on you switching layout. Best of luck!

Rich

Alton Junction

SBX
  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Ipswich, UK
  • 122 posts
Posted by SBX on Saturday, May 30, 2020 6:55 AM

That's good because I have a fresh bottle of WS fine grey ballast. Saves me asking my LHS to deliver one bottle (I am shielding which means that I cannot leave my apartment!).

Long Haired David
A.K.A. David Pennington
main man on the Sunset and North Eastern R.R.
http://www.gmrblog.co.uk
from the UK

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, May 30, 2020 6:17 AM

SBX

So where does this leave me. I have a 5' x 10" switching layout and was going to ballast with WS grey ballast. Should I replace that with WS brown ballast? 

I knew when I started this thread that I would get some suggestions regarding placement and color of yard ballast, but I also knew that it would be unrealistic to expect a specific answer to my question. Ultimately, it comes down to your own personal preference based on photos of the prototype and photos of others model railroad layouts.

Initially, my own inclination was to go with a shade of brown for the yard ballast, but if you look at the photos submitted by other members or the links that have been provided in this thread, the predominant yard ballast color seems to be a shade of gray. I also noticed in the photos and links that there seems to be a tone of what I would refer to as crushed limestone, giving the gray color a tint of whitish yellow.

So, in my case, I have decided to go with Woodland Scenics Fine Gray Ballast with some Woodland Scenics Fine Buff Ballast blended in for that limestone effect.

In you case, I can only make a suggestion, but my suggestion would be some sort of shade of gray. 

Hope that helps.

Rich

Alton Junction

SBX
  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Ipswich, UK
  • 122 posts
Posted by SBX on Saturday, May 30, 2020 4:57 AM

So where does this leave me. I have a 5' x 10" switching layout and was going to ballast with WS grey ballast. Should I replace that with WS brown ballast? See the image.

 

Long Haired David
A.K.A. David Pennington
main man on the Sunset and North Eastern R.R.
http://www.gmrblog.co.uk
from the UK

  • Member since
    November 2002
  • From: US
  • 2,455 posts
Posted by wp8thsub on Friday, May 29, 2020 6:12 PM

kasskaboose
...does the color in the yard depend on the timeframe of the layout?

To some extent it does.  Steam era yards often used cinder ballast and had a different color and texture compared to yards today.  Some photos show a nearly uniform dark gray from finely textured cinders.

Rob Spangler

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Friday, May 29, 2020 2:01 PM

kasskaboose

does the color in the yard depend on the timeframe of the layout? 

I am sure that it does but it also depends upon the owner railroad.

Rich

 

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • 2,360 posts
Posted by kasskaboose on Friday, May 29, 2020 1:52 PM

I like that approach also.  Can some hard have a way that defines the two areas?  Perhaps it depends on location, era, etc.

Not to hijack the thread, but does the color in the yard depend on the timeframe of the layout?

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Friday, May 29, 2020 1:33 PM

Pruitt

My rule:

Mainline ballast ends and yard ballast begins wherever you run out of one or the other. 

I agree with that statement and, quite frankly, who wouldn't agree? But the execution is more difficult than the definition. I suppose it is similar to pornography as assessed by a Supreme Court Justice who once said, "I cannot define it, but I know it when I see it". I cannot pinpoint where the mainline ballast ends and the yard ballast begins, but I will know it when I see it.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    February 2001
  • From: Wyoming, where men are men, and sheep are nervous!
  • 3,392 posts
Posted by Pruitt on Friday, May 29, 2020 1:02 PM

My rule:

Mainline ballast ends and yard ballast begins wherever you run out of one or the other.

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Friday, May 29, 2020 5:54 AM

richhotrain
 
doctorwayne

All my "yards" are staging yards, so none of the track is ballasted and the rails and ties aren't painted, either.

Where tracks leave the mainline at servicing areas or to access industries, the ballast generally ends once the rails leave the mainline, as in the photos below... 

Yeah, that is the conclusion that I am coming to as well. In other words, don't extend the mainline ballast onto the divergent side of the turnout that is leaving the mainline except to the extent that it is needed to maintain a line of ballast parallel to the straight through route of the turnout. 

Rich 

I have finally decided on the demarcation line between the mainlines and the yards, pretty much as Wayne has suggested. I will simply keep the mainline ballast running parallel through the straight route of the turnout that leads off the mainline into the yard and then place yard ballast right up against that demarcation line so as to appear gradual rather than a stark dividing line.

Now, I need to settle on the color of the yard ballast. 

My mainlines are a 50-50 blend of Scenic Express #40 light gray/dark gray which I really like because it gives the mainlines a darker rather than a lighter look.

For the yard color and texture, I had initially tried a Woodland Scenics Fine Dark Brown with some Woodland Scenics Fine Cinders mixed in, a 3 to 1 brown to black blend. But, now, it may be too dark for my liking.  I am also considering a blend of Woodland Scenics Gray and Buff. I like it, but I am wondering if it looks realistic.

If you look at the 2nd photo on page 13 of this PDF with the coaling tower, I really would like to capture that look.

https://mrv.trains.com/-/media/Files/PDF/Marketing/Freight%20Yard%20Design.pdf

Or, this, which looks to be mostly gray if you blow up the photo by clicking on it.

https://mrr.trains.com/how-to/track-planning-operation/2020/01/basics-of-car-cards-and-waybills-for-model-railroad-operation-part-3

Or even this although it may be too bland for my liking.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/m/mrr-layouts/2289263.aspx

Any thoughts on all of this?

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, May 28, 2020 8:50 PM

selector
Rich, how about where the speed changes from yard to open/main.  A train is obliged to enter the yard-proper at a reduced and strict speed limit, I believe.

John-NYBW
This gets to a question I've been meaning to ask for some time. When the mainline tracks pass through the yard, either on one side or down the middle if there are ladders on either side, are trains restricted to yard speed limits, or can they pass through without slowing down?

 

It depends on the railroad in question, and how they worded Rule 93 from the Standard Code of Operating Rules.

The applicable portion of Rule 93 from the WP, "Second and inferior class, extra trains, and engines must move within yard limits at yard speed."

Notice what isn't mentioned.  First Class trains are not required to move at yard speed.  

That being said, a yard isnt a good place to run at track speed.  Typically, speed restrictions for the main track will be found in the special instructions found in the employee time table.  

I dont have the Rule book from BM or PT, but I do have the ETTs.

A specific case I found was from Portland Terminal Company Time Table No. 45, dated September 25, 1938.  The maximum speed between Tower 1 (south end of Rigby Yard) and the Fore River Bridge was 40mph.  

Here is the 1924 map of Rigby: 

http://www.upward-concepts.com/rail/rigbyl.gif

Tower one is to the left (South) the Fore River is to the right (North) off of the map.   As you can see, the mains split right down the middle of the yard.

In this case, the track structure requirements would be similar for that of a mainline.  

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, May 28, 2020 7:49 PM

wp8thsub
 
richhotrain
Rob, what ballast material did you use for that lighter area? 

Fine sand. 

It looks great, Rob. I wouldn't mind capturing that look.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    November 2002
  • From: US
  • 2,455 posts
Posted by wp8thsub on Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:11 PM

richhotrain
Rob, what ballast material did you use for that lighter area?

Fine sand.

Rob Spangler

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, May 28, 2020 4:25 PM

wjstix

In some (many?) cases, the mainline tracks go around the yard, not through it, so I would think it wouldn't be unusual for the mainline to be ballasted while the yard tracks are just dirt and such.

Not sure if this link to Google Maps will work, but if it does, the two tracks nearest Highway 10/61 are the joint BNSF-CP mainline tracks, which go around their railyards to the north and west along the tracks. You can see the mainline appears to have gray rock ballast while the yard tracks (this is the old Milwaukee Road hump yard) don't.

https://www.google.com/maps/search/cp+rail+near+Saint+Paul,+MN/@44.9315108,-93.0260899,128m/data=!3m1!1e3 

Color photos taken from the ground are so much better than aerial Google Images. I have tried to look at railroad yards around Chicago on Google Images and everything looks white and light gray.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Mpls/St.Paul
  • 13,892 posts
Posted by wjstix on Thursday, May 28, 2020 1:50 PM

In some (many?) cases, the mainline tracks go around the yard, not through it, so I would think it wouldn't be unusual for the mainline to be ballasted while the yard tracks are just dirt and such.

Not sure if this link to Google Maps will work, but if it does, the two tracks nearest Highway 10/61 are the joint BNSF-CP mainline tracks, which go around their railyards to the north and west along the tracks. You can see the mainline appears to have gray rock ballast while the yard tracks (this is the old Milwaukee Road hump yard) don't.

https://www.google.com/maps/search/cp+rail+near+Saint+Paul,+MN/@44.9315108,-93.0260899,128m/data=!3m1!1e3

Stix
  • Member since
    June 2007
  • 8,892 posts
Posted by riogrande5761 on Thursday, May 28, 2020 1:28 PM

wp8thsub
 
riogrande5761
BTW, what turnouts are you using in the top two photos? 

 

The #8 crossovers are Walthers/Shinohara, while the visible #6 is Micro Engineering.

Thanks Rob,  the #8 crossover does look like a frog formed of stock rail which is consistant with  Walthers/Shinohara.  Micro have a cast frog if I recall.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, May 28, 2020 7:44 AM

John-NYBW
 

This gets to a question I've been meaning to ask for some time. When the mainline tracks base through the yard, either on one side or down the middle if there are ladders on either side, are trains restricted to yard speed limits, or can they pass through without slowing down? 

Good question, gonna be interested in the answer. May require a separate thread to get the attention of the prototype experts.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • 2,572 posts
Posted by John-NYBW on Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:56 AM

selector

I would use a thin layer of plaster to build up between tracks, and if you're bold, between the rails of tracks.  I'd tint the plaster with Burnt Umber.  Then I'd liberally sprinkle the top of the groomed plaster, while its still setting up, with N Scale 'cinders'.

Rich, how about where the speed changes from yard to open/main.  A train is obliged to enter the yard-proper at a reduced and strict speed limit, I believe.  At that point, little is needed in high ballast and finely leveled tracks that you'd have to have on the main.  Once you're near the arrival/departure, and heading toward ladders, it would all be mud 'n crud.

 

This gets to a question I've been meaning to ask for some time. When the mainline tracks pass through the yard, either on one side or down the middle if there are ladders on either side, are trains restricted to yard speed limits, or can they pass through without slowing down?

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, May 28, 2020 5:38 AM

wp8thsub

Flickr is finally behaving again so I can post layout photos.

Lakeview Service 1

by wp8thsub, on Flickr

 

At the east end of my Lakeview yard, the mainline ballast blends with the rest somewhere around the turnouts.  The transition occurs within the crossover into the yard in the foreground, and farther down the industry spur behind it.

Rob, what ballast material did you use for that lighter area?

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, May 27, 2020 6:08 PM

wrench567

Rich

The safety factor would come into play. Places with foot traffic would be cleared of tripping hazards, meaning no rocks. If the diverging switches were hand thrown then a clear path would be needed. Asphalt and concrete in yards are the modern day norms. Steam days cinder and ash around walking paths were common. Slag from the steel mills also could be found. Mills would give it away on a come and take it deal. My uncle who worked at USS used a small front shovel to load cars (hopper, gons, and even flats.) For the railroads to haul away. Back in the sixties my garage floor and driveway was cinder. Just don't fall on it. The stuff really cut you up good. Then again the dirt road was spayed with that pungent oil two or more times a year. No wonder we all have cancer now.

     Pete

 

Pete, thanks for those comments. Helpful and very interesting.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    November 2002
  • From: US
  • 2,455 posts
Posted by wp8thsub on Wednesday, May 27, 2020 3:54 PM

riogrande5761
BTW, what turnouts are you using in the top two photos?

The #8 crossovers are Walthers/Shinohara, while the visible #6 is Micro Engineering.

Rob Spangler

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Users Online

There are no community member online

Search the Community

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
Model Railroader Newsletter See all
Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox!