Someone here has some the same thing, and had a layout up for some time now. This exact thing is actually in the Koester multi-deck benchwork book - though with one difference, that person build theirs before putting drywall on the walls, so the tie in is to the actual wall stud, not a separate 2x4. Jason SHron has done it using those right angle brackets that I found were most definitely too wobbly, though every 4 feet he does use an oversize plywood bracket, still no diagonal braces though. Upper deck it seems he used shelf breackets sideways - also something I tried and the individual joist was way too wobbly. ANd no diagonals.
WHen I originally put together the test piece, the joists were 4 feet long. Hard to tell, as I should have put the attachment poitn more int he middle of the vertical 2x4 so I could support it better to test, but even at 4 feetout there was no perceptible movement putting a lot of weight on it. Cut back to 2 feet and I can't make it budge. If I had a way to get foces in the right direction with some way to measure said force, I'd love to test it to destruction.
I'm already beyond what I think is reaosnable incorporating 2x4s in a model railroad. Way too much, but the only way to get the attachment area bit enough is to use the 2x4 plus the little nailer block in there. So the plywood is attached over a 9 square inch area, the spacer at the vertical end is glued and screwed to the vertical 2x4 as well. Legs on the bottom ar eno problem to add if required. But you can;t do double deck and have legs and brackets hanging down. There are plenty of double deck layouts built so I don't think I'm even close to blazing new territory here.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy,
I did upper deck brackets for friend and attached them directly to the studs with no drywall in place like you described.
But we made the plywood L shaped with a very tight radius inside the L. That is way different from a connection like you are doing.
I would at least put something like this on the bottom:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/National-Hardware-8-in-Steel-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace/1000510825
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALI would at least put something like this on the bottom: https://www.lowes.com/pd/National-Hardware-8-in-Steel-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace/1000510825
I've tried those, but I like these on the sides of the 2x4 better. Go up on one side and down on the other.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
carl425 ATLANTIC CENTRAL I would at least put something like this on the bottom: https://www.lowes.com/pd/National-Hardware-8-in-Steel-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace/1000510825 I've tried those, but I like these on the sides of the 2x4 better. Go up on one side and down on the other.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I would at least put something like this on the bottom: https://www.lowes.com/pd/National-Hardware-8-in-Steel-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace/1000510825
Agreed, that is a good solution as well.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMy answer to the upper deck support would involve steel........
I used welded steel brackets for the support of the partial second level of my layout. I payed for the material, and my late brother-in-law cut and welded them to meet my specifications.
They were installed on the face of the drywall, and lag-bolted to the wall studs. I have been atop one section of it to brush-paint rail (it's about 38" deep).
Some of the brackets are about 4' apart, while others are close to 6' apart. The upper deck is 5/8" t&g plywood, on open grid framework - 1"x4" crossmembers on the ends of each section, and 1"x4" along the aisle, with the rear- and intermediate-crossmembers all 1"x2".
With the exception of the bracket at the corner, all of the verticals bolted to the wall are 1.5"x1.5"x 7.25" long, while the crossmembers are 1"x1" and as long as the depth of the layout which they support.
Here are the brackets supporting the upper level on the right-side of the entrance aisleway...
The far end of the open grid is bolted directly to the wall studs, with the distant bracket about 7' further into the room. The one in the foreground, about 6' from the other one, is a compound one, mounted on an outside corner of the room, with a horizontal arm in each direction. The layout here is about 25" deep, and the vertical member bolted to the corner is about 26" long, hidden behind the curved Masonite backdrop. Here's a view if the compound bracket...
The three supports shown here are about 4' apart...
...as are these, on the opposite side of the same aisle...
At the end of this aisle is a section about 9' long and, as mention earlier, about 38" deep. It has no supporting brackets, but is screwed to the wall studs at both ends and along its rear edge. The front edge, where it abuts the bracket-supported sections, is screwed to those sections too. That's the part on which I lay in order to paint the rails of a large curve, well towards the backdrop.
If the wooden brackets that Randy's planning to use are to be screwed to the side of the wall studs, rather than the face, then weld steel ones could be mounted in the same manner, which would avoid have the brackets on the backdrop, as is the case with mine. Depending on the construction of the sections being supported, it certainly wouldn't require brackets on every stud - I'd space them every 4', although I'm pretty sure that if the layout grid is sturdy, 6' (or more) would probably be do-able.
The materials aren't all that expensive, and if the majority of the brackets are similar, I can't imagine that the welding would cost would be prohibitive, either.
Perhaps another option to consider.
Wayne
The whole idea is to avoid anything that will keep the backdrop from attaching flat to the studs. Or I could just get metal shelf brackets and screw them to the wall. ANd then notch the backdrop every 16" to go around them like Tony Koester ended up doing. And adding yet another furring strip to stand the backdrop off isn't an option. Using 2z4s for the verticals is already reducing the width by more than I was originally planning for where I was going to use metal brackets to attach the hotizontal to the riser.
The flat angles won't work, the plywood horizontals are attached to the outside of the 2x4. Neither would the other style, there's nothing to attach them to - plus the horizontal part would be going into the end grain of plywood.
I could do like I posted a mockup rendering of in the other thread, which was to have the plywood pieces about 5" tall at the attachment end, with an angle/curve to the 3" width. So make L shaped plywood pieces. That means careful saber saw cutting of each horizontal piece and a lot of wasted plywood.
I will heep stressing the piece I made. But I still think it's more likely that excess weight will pull the screws out of the wall than actually cause the plywood to break off the 2x4. Or crush the drywall, making the vertical loose on the wall. There is significant attachment area - this is not just stip of plywood screwed to the side of a 2x4. I can always add another block of 2x4 stacked up on the existing one to extend the attachment area another 1.5". But since that wouldonly be screwed to the existing block and not all the way through to the vertical, it would be of limited value.
Hey Randy-
What some posters have tried to say is that you need what is called a moment connection. To keep the front edge of the cantilever beams from sagging.
Using your photos from a while ago, you can add a steel angle to beef them up without increasing the depth of the upper deck.
Either the one posted by Carl425 or one like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-5-in-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace-15212/202585414
The flat one that carl mentioned would go on both sides of the upright and on both sides of the beam. The one in the link I added would go on the back of the upright and on the top of the beam.
I don't have access to AutoCAD at the moment, so I can't show a quick sketch.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
rrinkerNeither would the other style, there's nothing to attach them to
You could glue a 1.5" x 5" piece of plywood below your horizontal on the edge of the 2x4 for the braces to sit on. Attach them with 3.5" #10 screws and they'll be plenty strong.
rrinker I could do like I posted a mockup rendering of in the other thread, which was to have the plywood pieces about 5" tall at the attachment end, with an angle/curve to the 3" width.
This is a good idea. You could even reinforce them with the 5" corner braces above. Cut 8" x 24" pieces of plywood, then make a diagonal cut from the 5" make on one end to the 3" mark on the other. This gives you two pieces with no wasted plywood.
rrinkerI can always add another block of 2x4 stacked up on the existing one to extend the attachment area another 1.5". But since that wouldonly be screwed to the existing block and not all the way through to the vertical, it would be of limited value.
This is also not a bad idea. You can get lag screws 8" long. This would get you all the way into the stud.
One more idea from Tony Koester's book (I think) - he talks about a guy that used framing squares as corner braces.
And... I don't think you'll have an issue with crushing the drywall with 2x4's as long as you're using.
I'm still trying to figure out where any sort of corner angle would go and actual do any good. Into the side of the plywood is good, that would be the flat type. But where does the other end screw into? At that point, the free end would be 3/4" away from the side of the vertical, requiring some sort of 3/4" spacer.
ANd the other type, either on top or underneath, one side would be screwed into the edge of the plywood, which is next to useless because plywood is not great at holding screws into the grain. And the other end - where would that go? This is outside the width of the 2x4, which ALSO places it outside the width od the wall stud. Screwing it into the drywall adds nothing. Lating it over sideways and screwing it into the inside face of the plywood, and then to the vertical - I'm not sure how much that adds either, as an attempt to do that with TWO angles alone on each side of thge horixontal piece of plywood gave extremely poor results. And to stay inside the vertical, the angle piece can only be anout 2" long. The side to the plywood could be as long as the piece of plywood, but then it's just a long lever and the short end won;t hold.
I understand about the moment arm. ANd that's somewhat taken care of by the extra block on the vertical 2x3. The plywood arms are not just attached on one edge all the way at the back, they are secondarily attached to the additional block to give an attachment point away from the main vertical section. Since they are (or rather, will be, the test piece is not accurately measured) contained within the height of the plywood arm they do not interfere with the backdrop attachment.
rrinker The whole idea is to avoid anything that will keep the backdrop from attaching flat to the studs....
I'm well aware of that, Randy, but because you have exposed studs, the vertical portion of a welded backet can be attached to the side of the stud, not to the face of it. That's the same, I think, as you plan to do with the built-up wooden ones.
That way, there's nothing to hinder the installation of the backdrop.
My brackets are bolted to the face of the studs through the drywall, only because I had drywalled the entire room before building the layout.
Adding 6" or 8" steel corner braces to the structure will significantly improve its rigidity, plus they will provide significant sag resistance over time. They'll provide much greater resistance to the cantilevered load, because their fasteners will react out that load over the long legs.
If you're worried about the screws pulling out of the plywood, insert another 2X4 spacer between the plywood pieces and install the brace with nuts and bolts instead of wood screws. Just make sure the plywood holes are not a loose fit for the bolts.
These brackets cost $1.99 (6 inch) or $2.67 (8 inch) each. They're available on-line or in most stores from Home Depot.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Wayne - there are no exposed studs. All my basement walls are finished with drywall, fully taped and muddled and painted. I'm attaching the layout through the drywall into the studs.
Mark - there are no flat surfaces at 90 degrees in the bracket design. Unless you are suggesting putting the metal brace between the vertical and the plywood, but that then makes all joints screw only, no glue between the vertical and joist.
rrinkerthere are no flat surfaces at 90 degrees in the bracket design.
Put a small piece of the plywood on your 2x3 under the joist to bring the downward leg of the metal brace flush with the joist. Use long enough screws to attach the brace so the reach through the plywood into the 2x3.
rrinkerWayne - there are no exposed studs. All my basement walls are finished with drywall, fully taped and muddled and painted. I'm attaching the layout through the drywall into the studs.
Sorry, Randy, my mistake. I thought that the brackets which you're planning to use seemed overly bulky, which wouldn't matter if they were attached to the sides of the studs, so I obviously was in error.And, at the risk of sounding even dumber, it still seems to me that if they're to be face-mounted on the wall, the weld-up steel ones would be less obtrusive, and fewer would be required. My upper level is plywood on open grid framework made mostly of 1"x2"s - used 1"x4"s on the front only because I wanted something substantial onto which electrical switches and manual control knobs for turnouts could be mounted. Even with much of the upper level over 30" in depth, the spaced-out brackets have not deflected from horizontal even a fraction of an inch, and, working on a stepstool to lay track or do other work, I lean on it often.
I wanted to use strips of 3/4 plywood for the verticals, with some of those angle brackets or similar to mount the hotizontal arm, but after trying a couple different types, they all seemed too flimsy. That's with all attachments going into the faces of the plywood, nothing into the edge. Even one on each side plus one underneath into the edge easily deflected. So then it was either 2x3 or 2x4, and theere's only one grade (the cheap ones) of 2x3 typically available here, whereas I can get a better quality 2x4 than just the basic framing stud (though I still had to pick the pile to get good ones).
Some sort of welded steel could work, as long as it wasn;t too tall in the vertical direction. Lower leve, it could go underneath, totally invisible. For the upper level, it would have to be places above the deck level, to not interfere with the lower level backdrop and, since the upper level will represent a more mountainous area, the scenery at the back will rise up to the backdrop, so something sticking a couple of inches up would not be a problem. I'm guessing with a welded steel support, I would only need screws intot he frame to keep if rom sliding off, not perform actual support, so small screws driven from the horizontal piece of steel into the end grain of the plywood would not be a problem.
I could probably do similar without welding - using performated steel angle, and bolt it together.
Then again - I took when I have put together and, while I am too out of shape to do a pullup (and definitely not on something that's more waist high instead of over my head), I did have a significant portion of my 300 pound weight hanging off the far end with no problems. With one every 16", that load would be distributed in the real world, should I lean or try to pull myself up by the benchwork.
rrinker Then again - I took when I have put together and, while I am too out of shape to do a pullup (and definitely not on something that's more waist high instead of over my head), I did have a significant portion of my 300 pound weight hanging off the far end with no problems. With one every 16", that load would be distributed in the real world, should I lean or try to pull myself up by the benchwork.
When ever I build something, including the benchwork/storage structure that my lay out sits on top of, I build it like it's going to be supporting a concrete pour. Just a habit of mine.
Mike.
My You Tube
rrinkerMark - there are no flat surfaces at 90 degrees in the bracket design. Unless you are suggesting putting the metal brace between the vertical and the plywood, but that then makes all joints screw only, no glue between the vertical and joist. --Randy
Better would be to notch the 2X4 to the depth of the plywood, but that's more work.
Milestone! First stick of benchwork went up today.
Two, actually. Since they are approximately half an 8' 2x4 each.
Something actually got done. Yay! I have enough to finish this wall, then I will have to go back and buy more 2x4s. And cut a gazillion space blocks.
I started on the wall that will have the town. I won't be able to do much more than put the main line through, still waiting on Peco to release their Code 70 turnouts.
mbinsewiWhen ever I build something, including the benchwork/storage structure that my lay out sits on top of, I build it like it's going to be supporting a concrete pour. Just a habit of mine.
I'm in the same boat Mike!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
rrinker Milestone! First stick of benchwork went up today. Two, actually. Since they are approximately half an 8' 2x4 each. Something actually got done. Yay! I have enough to finish this wall, then I will have to go back and buy more 2x4s. And cut a gazillion space blocks. I started on the wall that will have the town. I won't be able to do much more than put the main line through, still waiting on Peco to release their Code 70 turnouts. --Randy
Awesome!! The layout is official.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
rrinkerI started on the wall that will have the town. I won't be able to do much more than put the main line through, still waiting on Peco to release their Code 70 turnouts. --Randy
What with the ongoing pandemic, you may be in for quite a wait for those Peco turnouts (I hope not).
I may be waiting a while for more wood - Lowes and Home Depot both cut back hours.
The Peco Code 70 is already well past due - I may end up having to just use Code 83 on lowered roadbed instead of lowered roadbed AND lighter rail.
First things first, more 2x4s, a few sheets of MDF cut to 16" widths, drywall tape and mud, primer, and blue paint.
Put a few more uprights in place. Now that I have the swing of it, they are going up faster. Plus I assembly-lined it, measured all of them, then cut them all, then drilled all the pilot holes, then hung them.
I plan to see about Lowes tomorrow, I need more 2x4s and screws, and some MDF, tape, and mud so I can put up the backdrop panels.
Moving right along. Made a trip to Lowes today, got more 2x4s, enough to finish the town side, the back wall, and the short wall before the helix. Also some 5 pound packs of screws, I only had 1 pound packs of each size because I wasn't sure if they would work well or not, but they did, nicely countersinking themselves and no splitting the wood (though I am pre-drilling the 2x4 vertical - it allows me to set the screws in place so I don't have to hold the board against the wall at the right place, hold a screw in place, and also try to drive it in). I also am trying something different for the backdrop. They had some 1/4" underlayment (actual thickness, something like .202") which has one side sanded smooth. It's wood, not MDF or particle board. Basically, thin 3 ply plywood. Supposedly easy to cut with a utility knife, but 4' wide pieces would rest on the wheel wells in my truck and sag (and probably snap). So I had them cut a sheet into 16" by 8' sections - given the unknown quality of the blade in their panel saw, I wasn't sure if it would cut cleanly or not - but it did. So I had 2 more sheets cut. Now I have 72 linear feet of backdrop material, for less than $40. Being wood, it should prime easier than hardboard/masonite. And it should take tape and mud to smooth joints better than hardboard. I'm planning on cutting small sections to back joints. Spackle or wood filler might even be enough - I plan to hang it using construction adhesive with a couple of screws here and there to hold it while the adhesive sets. Then cover the screws and sand smooth. Coat of good primer, like I used on the walls, and it should be good to go.
Here's a couple of views of the progress so far. I'm still working on the fastest way to prep each piece - a huge time sink is marking the positions of each little attachment block, that's so I can drill the pilot holes in the right place and not where the block will get screwed into the vertical. I'm installing all the verticals even across the top using a level, the exact spot of each block and the associated horizontal members will be determined by setting my laser level. Even that's not super critical, as the track will be held up with risers. I'm probbaly going to have the main climb a bit as it goes from left to right (towards the helix) throught he town - that will serve to both reduce the number of helix turns and, when it splits off for the branch, since that will be just a single deck, I want to have that closer to an ideal height rather than a compromise like the two main decks.
(climb towards the right of the second pic, then around the corner onto the short wall where the junction with the branch will be, and on to the helix.)
rrinkerI also am trying something different for the backdrop. They had some 1/4" underlayment (actual thickness, something like .202") which has one side sanded smooth. It's wood, not MDF or particle board. Basically, thin 3 ply plywood.
Is that bendy enough for the inside corners of the backdrop?
rrinkerBeing wood, it should prime easier than hardboard/masonite.
I would think you would need more coats of primer than Masonite or MDF to hide the grain in the wood.
I think the underlayment is a great choice for a backdrop. Yes the joints will take drywall compound and fill in better than hardboard/Masonite.
Yes it will take a little more painting, but it is a trade off. Masonite is slippery to paint until you get the first coat on. Underlayment will soak up tthe first coat, use a good acrylic "wall and wood" primer first.
I would use a pneumatic stapler to attach the underlayment to the 2x4's. The kind that uses narrow staples, used for carpet, furniture backs, and, of all things, underlayment.....
The holes will be small and easy to fill.
It should do fine around corners as long as you want nice sweeping ones.
Personally, as someone in the construction business, I hate working with Masonite.....we virtually never use it for anything.....
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I hate working with Masonite.....we virtually never use it for anything.....
I have only found masonite (hardboard down here) to be useful in applications where it is not being attached to anything else. We have used it for CosPlay props, sliding doors, and for light duty shelves.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I would use a pneumatic stapler to attach the underlayment to the 2x4's. The kind that uses narrow staples, used for carpet, furniture backs, and, of all things, underlayment..... The holes will be small and easy to fill. . . . Personally, as someone in the construction business, I hate working with Masonite.....we virtually never use it for anything..... Sheldon
. . .
A specific design criteria was that the fascia on my layout be smooth and continuous with invisible joints and nail holes. Hardboard masonite was suitable and took the paint well. Tight glued scarf joints eliminated the need for mud and tape.
However . . . the first 8-foot section was put up using pneumatic staples, and the little bumpy tetons were unacceptable. I put up the other twenty or so sections using 1" slightly counter-sunk pneumatic finish nails. It took a lot of nails because the masonite does not hold nails very well and the slightly counter-sunk heads would pull through, especially for the curved areas. Not a big deal, but something to be aware of.
ROBERT PETRICK ATLANTIC CENTRAL I would use a pneumatic stapler to attach the underlayment to the 2x4's. The kind that uses narrow staples, used for carpet, furniture backs, and, of all things, underlayment..... The holes will be small and easy to fill. . . . Personally, as someone in the construction business, I hate working with Masonite.....we virtually never use it for anything..... Sheldon A specific design criteria was that the fascia on my layout be smooth and continuous with invisible joints and nail holes. Hardboard masonite was suitable and took the paint well. Tight glued scarf joints eliminated the need for mud and tape. However . . . the first 8-foot section was put up using pneumatic staples, and the little bumpy tetons were unacceptable. I put up the other twenty or so sections using 1" slightly counter-sunk pneumatic finish nails. It took a lot of nails because the masonite does not hold nails very well and the slightly counter-sunk heads would pull through, especially for the curved areas. Not a big deal, but something to be aware of. Robert
Robert, respectfully, the whole point is that underlayment is NOT Masonite, and it takes the staples differently, not causing those bumps. We put flooring over it all the time without having to deal with any "bumps" from the staples.
And, again, as a 45 year experianced contruction professional, I would be concerned about the long term stablity of Masonite installed the way you descibed, for the reason you described, its poor nail holding.
But your mileage may vary depending on climate, conditions and possibly glue.......
If I were using Masonite for a fascia, which I would not likely do, I would attach it with screws and upholstery washers.
My last layout had a beadboard plywood fascia, nailed on and painted.
On the new layout I am leaning in the same direction as Randy, for both backdrop and fascia.
I don't have an air stapler but then any excuse for a new tool...
I can;t imagine a butt joint anything without filler is going to be 'invisible' so whatever I end up using for fascia will also be filled and sanded. In areas where it needs to be taller to hold control panels (and yes, there will be panels - operating turnouts via a DCC controller is a non-starter, doesn;t matter what brand, they are ALL awkward and in many cases the plain 'engineer' throttles can't operate turnouts or accessories), I will just use taller versions of my spacer blocks/ Though those areas will be few and far between, most will easily fit in the 4-6" of fascia that will securely attach with no extra supports. Still not sure what I will use there, more of this underlayment, or masonite. I'm leaning towards the masonite, only because in the corners I will want a tighter radius than the backdrop and what the underlayment seems to be capable of (but I haven't tried wetting the underlayment to see if it will take a tighter curve without snapping yet).
I have a stack of masonite pieces from my previous layout, only ever got two sections of fascia installed, I also have a box of the washers I used, it looked good, I used stainless screws to match the washers, too. Problem is, they are all 12" wide by 4' long - transport at the time meant no cutting it the long way into 8' sections.