Since my basement refinishign is all done, it's time to start building a layout. Finally - after 6 years in the house and no layout, not even a small module.
For a refresher - here's the plan for the first level (layout will be double decked. I wish I didn't have to, but I can't get long enough runs for even modest train lengths. It might seem like a lot of space, but ignoring the excluded area around the furnace and water heater, and pretending the new wall wasn;t there, the overall space is about 26x20, with a little extra along the front side of th ehouse, which is the bottom of all plans) as it stands so far. Opposite the yard is going to be a town, small city really, and there will be industries and even some street trackage(though not the mains). I haven't planned that out yet.
First on the agenda is where to start. I was thinling about starting in the new area formed by the added wall, the town and yard space. Except I'm really waiting for the Peco Code 70 turnouts because I want to use the smaller rail for the yard and sidings. Code 83 on the main. I have a large stock of Peco Code 83 flex, and some turnouts of all sizes - some 8's, some 6's, and a couple of 5's. I could just do the main, and wait on the rest.
Or I could start just past the furnace, as the turnouts off the main would be code 83, and the code 70 flex is available now. Couldn't put in the branch just yet.
Or I could just forget the idea of using the smaller rail, since Peco did say these Code 70 US turnouts were going to be available last year, and still nothing.
Where would you start? My plan is to go get some wood this weekend, although I'm not sure when I will be able to pick up some of the good playwood, they are only open weekdays and close before I get finished at work.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I'd probably start on the North wall unless those are going to be code 70 too.
I haven't built a lot of layouts, but one thing I do know. We need a better title to make this thread standout from all the other layout build threads that will come along.
I was going to suggest Randy's Layout Build but there was a guy a couple years ago who put his name in every thread he started and that seemed strange. How about:
Reading East Penn Layout Build ?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
My best advice to start witht he part you know you will enjoy the least.
Your enthusiasm will probably never be as high as when you start the project, so I know I am more likely to get the un-fun part complete if I do it first.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
The most un-fun part will probably be a 2 level moveable section in front of the furnace and water heater, but I do kind of need the benchwork to either side to be there as anchor points for the moveable part.
The good news is, it has to be moveable but not in the sense of a swing gate that is used every time you need to walk in and out of th elayout room. More like, furnace broke, they are coming tomorrow to mput in a new one. I had been thinking of hinging it and having it on heavy duty casters to just swing away, but in truth it doesn't have to do that. I just need to be able to do something liek slide back the rail joiners at either end (2 tracks in on the lower level and 3 tracks out on the lower level, since the AD track starts there, probably just a simple 2 main tracks on the upper deck), unplug some electrical connections, and then lift and move it. It will be narrow and completely freestanding, so I don't anticipate much weight.
BigDaddy I'd probably start on the North wall unless those are going to be code 70 too. I haven't built a lot of layouts, but one thing I do know. We need a better title to make this thread standout from all the other layout build threads that will come along. I was going to suggest Randy's Layout Build but there was a guy a couple years ago who put his name in every thread he started and that seemed strange. How about: Reading East Penn Layout Build ?
Well, something - while I'm not changing my public domain anme, any resemblence of any part of my layout to the actual East Penn Branch of the Reading is purely coincidental. So I'm not sure that's an accurate title to use either.
I got it, editing after I post this.
If I was to build again, and have this space, finished and ready, I would do the bench work, all around, so when I started laying track, my 1st goal would be to get a continous main line, running. And then proceed from there.
Mike.
My You Tube
If only I weren;t a touch (ha!) ADD... Even on my previous layout which was much smaller, I only built about 1/4 of the benchwork before I started putting down track and getting trains running. Then I added another 8 foot section, put track on that, until I got all the way around, then I filled in some of the sidings and things (most of the time, I put the turnout in place when laying the main, but didn;t finish the roadbed or track for the siding).
It's just the way I work. Probably not the most ideal, because once a train can run, I run trains as much as extend the layout. Ormaybe I will shove somethign off the free end which will prompt me to keep up with the benchwork. I did that 2 layouts ago, just a small 8x12 donut but I started running trains on that before I had all 4 sections of benchwork built. After shoving 3 cars to the floor, I finished the benchwork. Good thing is, they were Kato covered hopper kits, they use some odd engineering plastic, so all that happened is I turned them back into kits. ANd lost a couple of Kadee knuckle springs.
Well, I guess that's the way all of the real railroads started, lay track, run train, lay more track, run train farther,....
Since I like to do the carpentry work, the bench work would proceed rapidly. No promises that I would fall back, and get some track down...
I like the new name to the thread.
I like carpentry work too, but eventually I get tired of sawing lumber. Making strips from sheets of plywood I don;t think I will find too exciting, so I plan to get a truckload, then cut them all up so I have a supply on hand. I MIGHT be able to use the exuse that I have to stop because the shop vac filled up. I certainly can;t say it's because my batteries died - I now have 4 batteries and 2 chargers for my drill, plus an adapter so I can use the new Li-ion packs for the new drill in my old Ni-cad one. No more swapping between drill bit and screwdriver bit. I can drill, swap tools, and drive in the screw.
I may actually find it an enjoyable challenge to make the moveable part.
Hey Randy-
I've been following your recent work. I want to add my congratulations along with everyone else's and offer whatever encouragement I can.
As for where to start . . . I can't say. For me, I built and completed all the benchwork before laying the first strip of cork. I had thought about stopping halfway and putting a temporary return loop closure so that I could run trains, but when I got to that point I was still full of energy and enthusiasm so I just kept going. To me, all of it is fun. I don't look at any task as drudge work. Whatever I am doing, I never lose sight of the big picture and I can always see how things (even small little tiny things) will fit into the overall schema.
So my advice . . . pick a spot, any spot and go from there. Good luck and have fun. And keep us informed.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
I just realized I have never had a fully finished dedicated space ready to put a train layout in. I have never walked into a great space and been able to just build a model railroad in there.
The closest I came was my Dream House layout, but the room was never finished. I tried to finish the room as the layout expanded, but that did not work out. I started by installing "temporary" sections of the unfiished areas, but they never got moved to finish the room.
My final layout will start with a finished room also, hopefully within 9 months.
I don't know where I will start.
So after reading this thread about finding that starting spot, do most modelers start with the benchwork? I always thought about doing wall prep (backdrops and power outlets) or ceiling prep (lighting and drop down supports instead of legs) but I never actually do things the way I dreamed it. I always seem to be short on time and money so I just find a way to get trains running and then become disinterested when I begin the "shoulda, woulda, coulda" conversation in my head. Always close enough but never the way I dream it up.........
Rich
2 layouts ago, I didn;t do any prep. I was plannign to make that layout much larger and use all the available space, but other things happened. Initially I DID want to have nice walls and a drop ceiling, but after seeing several layouts where they just painted the poured concrete basement walls, I figured I could just do that and not worry about all the rest. That's why I like seeing a couple of overall shots in layout feature articles, not just all the closeups that show only the modeling work.
Last layout, well, it was in a spare bedroom, so the walls and ceiling were already finished.
This one - I am here for the long haul, and while the basement was already 'finished' (see my basement phase 2 thread, there are soem 'before' pictures at the end), it was poorly done plus the walls were in 3 different paneling patterns, not conducive to being a layout backdrop. So I decided I was going to do it right this time, got the walls refinished, with insualtion now, new drop ceiling, outlets, and since my main breaker box is in the garage on the far wall and it's hard to get wires into the basement, I had a sub panel installed in the basement which still has some breaker slots empty so if I need to add somethign else, I can easily do it myself now.
I am not, as I have said, a linear builder, in that I don't do things in an order like complete all benchwork, then complete all subroadbed, and then complete all track, etc. You of course have to have SOME benchwork before you can lay any track. Backdrop pretty much MUST go before scenery. But apart from dependencies - I tend to do a bit of this, a bit of that as I go along.
Randy,
If you aren't a linear person a double deck is going to require some discipline on your part to keep the enthusiasm high as you build. Of course this is true of any layout that is of any size. Certain parts of the process go much more quickly with a linear approach but do get a bit tedious at times, presenting a challenge to those of us who would rather mix things up than in terms of building processes/ modeling.
in order to facilitate what I am presuming is your style of modeling - moving around from project to project as the mood strikes, I would suggest that you plan and build the bench work for the bottom deck around the entire "north room" all at once as the first step. This will give you a base for the rest of the layout construction and allow you to see the whole foot print in the space before laying track and making decisions about scenery. It shouldn't take you too long to put together the basic frame work. I was able to complete this step on my layout in a couple of days. With help, this can go quickly.
As for your plan: I presume you have a more complete version with deck widths and the foot print of the layout structure in the room? I also presume you have decided on a style of bench work construction: open grid, L girder etc? How the bench work is supported? The deck separation and heights? How the upper deck will be supported?
I also presume that you have done the math on the start points and steepness of the grades if they are not limited to the helix? I also presume you have thought about how you will light the layout and if you will have valences?
I didn't have all this stuff figured out at first but I did have an idea about most of the critical items before starting on the layout construction. I started with my lower staging deck first and the monster rose up from there.
I started running trains on the staging section as soon as the track was laid. Over the last 14 years it has been a balance between working on the layout, running trains and building models and rolling stock. I was able to stay linear for some of the more tedious tasks but now that the structure is pretty close to done, I am much more random about finishing things and what I choose to work on next.
Have fun,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
I have pretty much all of that figured out. I should be able to put up benchwork faster than I can haul the wood home (I don't have a monster truck, so I can only take so much at a time, expecially longer stuff which needs to stick in through the back window).
Supports for both levels and the top valance will be vertical 2x4s screwed to the studs, with 3/4 plywood brackets for horizontals.
Lighting is LED strips, while I don;t have the control program worked out for dimming them and running the RGB strip through a sunrise and sunset, I am using common standard DMX drivers to run the LED strips. If i REALLY had to, i could get a cheap console and manually run the lights, but I did already test a basic computer hookup and it worked.
The plan does show the room footprint. I did have the fascia edge outlines, but that was before I made some changes to the plan so that has to be redone. I'm also not redrawing it to accurately reflect that the track will not all run parallel to the wall/fascia like it's drawn - it's just faster to draw straight lines connecting the curves.
Grades, other than the helix, are generally going to be cosmetic. With two decks it leaves little room for massive grade changes unless both decks move in more or less lock step, in which case some parts will be too low and some too high - it's already a compromise for a double decker, but I'd rather have the long run. And I calculated time in helix at reasonable speeds, like 30-40 mph, and it's not really that long. I did fool around with various boxes and supports to come up with a workable deck height without placing the upper deck at my absolute maximum (which means a lot of people I know wouldn't be able to see a darn thing without a step stool).
rrinker I have pretty much all of that figured out. I should be able to put up benchwork faster than I can haul the wood home (I don't have a monster truck, so I can only take so much at a time, expecially longer stuff which needs to stick in through the back window). Supports for both levels and the top valance will be vertical 2x4s screwed to the studs, with 3/4 plywood brackets for horizontals. Lighting is LED strips, while I don;t have the control program worked out for dimming them and running the RGB strip through a sunrise and sunset, I am using common standard DMX drivers to run the LED strips. If i REALLY had to, i could get a cheap console and manually run the lights, but I did already test a basic computer hookup and it worked. The plan does show the room footprint. I did have the fascia edge outlines, but that was before I made some changes to the plan so that has to be redone. I'm also not redrawing it to accurately reflect that the track will not all run parallel to the wall/fascia like it's drawn - it's just faster to draw straight lines connecting the curves. Grades, other than the helix, are generally going to be cosmetic. With two decks it leaves little room for massive grade changes unless both decks move in more or less lock step, in which case some parts will be too low and some too high - it's already a compromise for a double decker, but I'd rather have the long run. And I calculated time in helix at reasonable speeds, like 30-40 mph, and it's not really that long. I did fool around with various boxes and supports to come up with a workable deck height without placing the upper deck at my absolute maximum (which means a lot of people I know wouldn't be able to see a darn thing without a step stool). --Randy
Awesome!! I figured that you had thought about all this - just didn't see it in the thread.
There is nothing like cutting the first stick of lumber for the new layout. Savor the moment..
Didn't get anything built, but I did get a small load of 2x4s to get started with. I also took some old scraps and made a mock up of one of my brackets, just one level worth. This is with a completely straight piece of 3/4 plywood, not angled down to make it wider at the attachment point witht he vertical, and it seems plenty sturdy. Even before the glue has dried, at 2 foot out (the piece of plywood is 4 feet long - no part of the benchwork will stick out that far), there is pretty much zero vertical deflection and almost no horizonatal deflection either. I'm thinking for the top level, which is just to hold up the lights, nothing will be build on top of it, even a 2 1/2" width might be enough. The piece I used is 3" wide. Certainly for areas of the benchwork that are 18" or less deep. Maybe for the 24" sections I will cut out the more complex shape.
Plus I got the shelving bits for the laundry room, so I have to put those up.
Even if nothing was built, it still sounds like you are making some progress.
Here's what my mocjup supports look like - there was NO measuring and NO square used to mark anything, it was all eyeballed and screwed together without clamps just to see if it woudl work. ANd if it's sturdy and stable when built this cloppily, imagine if the ends were actually even and measured properly as they will be on the real thing.
The horizontal is 24", give or take (mostly give, it's more like 24" from the face of the main vertical 2x4). Leaning on it, does not deflect downward. Pushing it side to side, with my best eddort at holding the vertical 2x4 steady (laying it on the floor and standing on it) results in mo appreciable movement. I'd say this is more than robust enough to hold up even flat areas decked with plywood. Especially since there will be on on every stud, so every 16". The majority of the layout will be narrower than 24" - 18" in most places, and based on how stable it was before I put the second arm and spacer block on, at 18" or less it should only need a single arm. Even in the 24" areas, I doublt I will put double arms for the top cap, which only has to support some thin plywood and some LED strip lights.
I'd probably start building benchwork on the top left and move along to the right.......
to see if the laundry room still functioned acceptably, would want to know that first and not last after everything else was built.
Then work my way around to the furnace area movable section to provide one anchor point and to visualize how that would work.
Lay all of the track in what I just built.
You would have a nice mix of some long-ish mainline and some switching, so you could run/test different equipment and maybe even get to build some structures or mock ups. Keeps from having to do carpentry exclusively for a while.
- Douglas
rrinker Here's what my mocjup supports look like - there was NO measuring and NO square used to mark anything, it was all eyeballed and screwed together without clamps just to see if it woudl work. ANd if it's sturdy and stable when built this cloppily, imagine if the ends were actually even and measured properly as they will be on the real thing. The horizontal is 24", give or take (mostly give, it's more like 24" from the face of the main vertical 2x4). Leaning on it, does not deflect downward. Pushing it side to side, with my best eddort at holding the vertical 2x4 steady (laying it on the floor and standing on it) results in mo appreciable movement. I'd say this is more than robust enough to hold up even flat areas decked with plywood. Especially since there will be on on every stud, so every 16". The majority of the layout will be narrower than 24" - 18" in most places, and based on how stable it was before I put the second arm and spacer block on, at 18" or less it should only need a single arm. Even in the 24" areas, I doublt I will put double arms for the top cap, which only has to support some thin plywood and some LED strip lights. --Randy
I notice you're using Torx head screws. You get double points for that. Those things are really nice.
The Philips ones don't have the auger tips to cut in without splitting, nor do they have the head that self countersinks. I was surprised it didn't split the ply, I didn't even drill any holes with this test piece. They did rip the veneer but these pieces are cheap Lowe's birch plywood, the veneer layer is so thing people have complained about sanding it right off.
Baby steps - 5 sheets of 3/4" top quality birch plywood just delivered to my house.
Cheaper for a 5x5 sheet of this than for a 2x4 piece of questionable quality from Lowes. ANd delivered.
I still have some things to do in the basement, like get shelves put up, before I can set up to start cutting these sheets into strips. Hopefully I will get to all that this weekend - also have another project, my server is about dead so all the parts for a new one are arriving tomorrow.
Those look like the Spax screws I use. If you put them close to the edge, they will cause a split when the head countersinks. They are still great screws. I've put 2" Spax through an edge board into the end grain of a rib and they grab the end grain well enough to countersink the head without spinning out.
It also looks like you're using Titebond III. I'd recognize that stain anywhere. Good stuff, but I do wish it was a little thicker.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Hey Randy,
Structural / mechanical engineer here...
That load distributed across the horizontal section means the back corner of the brace is going to have to react out a lot of load, continuously, for however long the layout is up. What seems very sturdy now may not stay that way, as the fasteners loosen up over time as the wood in the screw holes is "worked" by the loads.
I suggest that a short brace from the horizontal arm to the vertical will mitigate the big moment arm that will otherwise be created. Even just six inces out and six inches down will improve the load carrying characteristics by many times the structure's current ability.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Zip, zero, nada chance of putting a diagonal brace on there like that. This is a double deck layout, the sort of brace will make a mess of the space between layers. At merely 24", and that only for one part of the layout, witht he joints glues AND screwed, I don;t think it's going anywhere. Not without breaking the wood - it is indeed Titebond III and once set it's stronger than the wood. Maybe it won't handle a 100 pound working load, but then, it doesn't have to. I'm not climbing on this. I'd have to think the forces exerted by HO trains rounds down to effectively nil and can be considered a static load.
If it falls down when I have the 24" brackets all up and lay a sheet of plywood across it, you can laugh at me. I'm more worried about the screws holding in the wall studs than I am about the braces pulling loose from the vertical.
It may be possible to add support under the lower deck, but the upper deck, no.
Just make sure those supports are screwed into the wall studs, should be fine.
My new stud finder, which is way better than the old one (13 sensors!) coupled with the fact that the contractor is super fussy and made sure everything was precisely 16" on center means they absolutely will be. Worked for putting up the shelves last night.
rrinker Zip, zero, nada chance of putting a diagonal brace on there like that. This is a double deck layout, the sort of brace will make a mess of the space between layers. At merely 24", and that only for one part of the layout, witht he joints glues AND screwed, I don;t think it's going anywhere. Not without breaking the wood - it is indeed Titebond III and once set it's stronger than the wood. Maybe it won't handle a 100 pound working load, but then, it doesn't have to. I'm not climbing on this. I'd have to think the forces exerted by HO trains rounds down to effectively nil and can be considered a static load. If it falls down when I have the 24" brackets all up and lay a sheet of plywood across it, you can laugh at me. I'm more worried about the screws holding in the wall studs than I am about the braces pulling loose from the vertical. It may be possible to add support under the lower deck, but the upper deck, no. --Randy
It's not going to fall down when you add the plywood. If it fails, it will most likely be after several years of never-relenting ~85+ in-lbs of torque (I did some simple calculations) applied at the joint by the cantilevered weight of the deck. The glue will lock the top plies of the plywood together very securely, but the inner plies will tend to shear apart over time (plywood is not really desgned to react out shear forces across ply bondaries).
Maybe a simple analogy will help illustrate what I'm saying. You know how wobbly benchwork is when standing on legs that are not diagonally braced, right? Your design is essentially that same thing, just in a different direction. When you add even small diagonal braces to the legs, the structure becomes much more solid.
I'm not trying to rain on your parade, and certainly not wishing for some form of scale catastrophe down the line. I'm just pointing out the structural mechanics of your braces. Good luck - I hope I'm wrong.
My answer to the upper deck support would involve steel........
Like Pruitt, I think it is destined to fail.
Sheldon