My Christmas layout is EZ Track, and Bachmann PLUS locos, it's about a total of 20' of mainline when all set up, double track, and I have feeders going to 4 places.
So many track joints, it needs feeders.
Mike.
My You Tube
rrinkerI built a 4x8 test oval using Bachmann EZ-Track and it didn;t work with a DC power pack without adding extra feeders. Locos would noticeably slow as they got further from the power connection.
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I notice the exact same thing when I set up a small layout with my Kato Unitrack. Even a modest loop requires multiple feeders.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I use #20 for my feeders, I think #18 even looks too big next to Code 83 HO rails. And that's for every 3 feet or so. For every piece of sectional - the aggregate of all those wires even using something as small as #20 would be insanely large.
I don't think all this is NEEDED for DCC - two layouts ago, as soon as I got the track down I wanted to run trains - I had all these feeder drops hanging down, but I hadn't run the bus wire around yet, so I hooked my system to one set of feeders - one set of feeders attached to ONE of the main lines, and the whole layout operated reliably. An 8x12 double track donut with a yard and several sidings. All track joints were not soldered, and painting the rails did not stop the power flow at the unsoldered joints. I did add the bus wire later, as this was original envisioned as just the start of a significantly larger layout. I'm not advocating everyone just use two wires to the track and done - but it DOES work. If you have good track. I built a 4x8 test oval using Bachmann EZ-Track and it didn;t work with a DC power pack without adding extra feeders. Locos would noticeably slow as they got further from the power connection. I ended up adding 3 more feeder sets, so there were four sets of feeders equally spaced around the loop, then it worked great for testing DC locos before installing decoders.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I worked my way up in the world of industrial and heavy equipment.
If it is good enough for a 1:1 200 ton heavy lift crane, it is good enough for the 1:87 STRATTON AND GILLETTE!
If I do it any other way, it just looks breakable.
I refuse to look under the hood of any of my cars.
rrinker I do the middle strip and solder, but only because 'modern' tools make it easy - the Ideal Stripmaster and the equivalent Klein, at least. None of that silly twice around with a knife then a longitudinal cut to remove a piece of insulation,
I have the Klein tool. I can strip away a 1/2" piece in the middle in less than 5 seconds. So much better than when I used a #11 blade in the old days.
ATLANTIC CENTRALStill not sure I buy into the need for the every 6' of track stuff.
I would never go more than 36 inches without a power feeder. I hate it when trains slow down and speed up as thet get farthe/nearer a power feeder. My A/B set of Athearn PAs with lighted coaches need healthy juice.
hon30critterWell, the good thing about having all that copper in the layout is there may actually be some scrap value to it! I'm not disrespecting your choices. I just couldn't resist taking the shot!
I love it Dave! I appreciate any comments. Thank you for reading my progress reports.
SeeYou190I use 10 gauge wire for the main layout bus,
Well, the good thing about having all that copper in the layout is there may actually be some scrap value to it! How many layouts can boast that?!?
Sorry Kevin, I'm not disrespecting your choices. I overbuild things too. I just couldn't resist taking the shot!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
rrinker I do the middle strip and solder, but only because 'modern' tools make it easy - the Ideal Stripmaster and the equivalent Klein, at least. None of that silly twice around with a knife then a longitudinal cut to remove a piece of insulation, thses tools do it in no more time that it takess to strip the end of one wire to put a crimp terminal on to wire it to a terminal strip. Terminal strips near every feeder - now that would take me months to wire a small layout since I have feeders to every piece of track, or at least, every other piece of track, since I solder pairs of flex track together. I probably will do that where I tap off my #12 main bus to a #14 detection bus, since there won't be one of thoese every few feet. --Randy
I do the middle strip and solder, but only because 'modern' tools make it easy - the Ideal Stripmaster and the equivalent Klein, at least. None of that silly twice around with a knife then a longitudinal cut to remove a piece of insulation, thses tools do it in no more time that it takess to strip the end of one wire to put a crimp terminal on to wire it to a terminal strip. Terminal strips near every feeder - now that would take me months to wire a small layout since I have feeders to every piece of track, or at least, every other piece of track, since I solder pairs of flex track together. I probably will do that where I tap off my #12 main bus to a #14 detection bus, since there won't be one of thoese every few feet.
And I get it for the every 6' drop thing in DCC.
But I know lots of ex DC modelers now using DCC who simply tied all their block feeders together and hooked up their booster with no problems.
Still not sure I buy into the need for the every 6' of track stuff.
I solder every rail joint within each block, and many of my DC blocks are 30-40 feet long, never had any problems with voltage drop.
I know with DCC it is also about signal quality, but again, seen lots of DCC layouts without all that with no problems.
Sheldon
Over kill again I see.
OK, I'm a fellow DC guy, and I use a "throttle bus" for each wireless throttle since each of my Aristo Craft base units has to feed a cab selection relay board for each primary block.
The cab sellection relay boards are located near the block they serve, so they are spread around the layout. Each throttle has its own 4 amp regulated power supply.
I use #12 wire for the throttle bus, you know, #12 wire rated at 5 times my maximum current value..........
I know everybody does it, but being an old fashioned relay control system electrician by original training, I just can't bring myself to strip insulation off the middle of a run of wire and "tap" it with a "drop". All wires are joined at some sort of terminal block or solder strip. But the "tap" thing would not work for my application anyway.
My track feeders are typically 22 gauge drops directly to the cab selection relay board for that block. Because of detection requirements each block has only one set of feeders.
The wiring I do looks more like this:
rrinker#10 main bus? Even the DCC guys are just staring with their mouths open.
Hmmmmm... The part I left out was that I solder feeders to every other piece of sectional track. I thought people would believe that was too much overkill.
Yes, I have always used #10 for my main bus. I used to use #16 for feeders, but I became tired of the appearance of big ugly wires on my rails.
I use #10 for all my speaker wires too.
Yes, I bought it, but I have plenty left from the 100 foot rolls I bought 10 years ago to finishe this layout.
#10 main bus? Even the DCC guys are just staring with their mouths open. Are you filling a hanger? Even the club layout, which fully assembled is something like 28x150, only has #12 bus lines (but several boosters spaced about the thing) and there are no issues with dozens of trains running. #14 was more than satisfactory for my last layout, filling about a 13x17 room.
I hope you're using #10 because someone gave you a whole bunch, and you aren't actually buying it. There's really no point, even for DCC. #12 for my old layout would have been at the overkill level, #14 was even probably mildly overkill. and that's with the "more sensitive" DCC. My basement layout in planning, approximately 26x26 of space plus staging in the laundry room, and 2 decks, will use #12 for the main deck and I am not the least bit concered with it. Not now, not 20 years down the road, if I am still here and running it.
Day 29, Post 1:
Well, time to get to wiring. I already soldered wires to the underside of of the rails that are closest to viewer. Now I need to solder the wires on the far side of the rails, and also the stub ends of the track inside the tunnel to both rails.
After all the wires are attached, I build the "wiring harness" for the layout. I don't use Scotchlok suitcase connectors on the initial build, but if I need to add an new feeded after the scenery is in place, I will use them. They sure beat soldering above your head while you are underneath the layout.
For building a harness, I solder the connections off of the bus, then insulate them with heat shrink tubing. It is important to remember to slide the pieces of heat shrink tubing down the wire before you make the connections.
I use 10 gauge wire for the main layout bus, 14 gauge for the local bus, and 22 gauge wire for the track feeders. Since this is just a small layout segment, I skipped the main bus and went straight to 14 gauge wire with the 22 gauge feeders.
To make a connection I remove approximately 1/2" of insulation from the bus, and twist a feeder around the larger wire.
I Solder the wires together. Make sure the wire gets hot enough so the solder goes into the wire strands, not just puddle and blob on the surface.
Then I insulate the connection by shrinking the tubing into final position.
This should be a connection that will give a lifetime of reliable service.
I also use this method for connections with 2, 3, or even 4 branches off of the bus. Just be sure to run the heat shrink tubing down one side with all the wires inside of it.
Making this connection is a job for the 80 watt Weller soldering iron.
I make sure that the wire feeders are long enough to allow me to make these connections without working underneath the layout.
There you have it... the wiring bus connections for my layout.
Track fiddlerKevin...... I've been following your thread all the way through like a fly on the wall
Thank you for all the kind words. I know there are a lot of other "Flies On The Wall" out there based on the hits the pictures are getting on Imgur.
I have really enjoyed this project. It is giving me a real sense this layout design will work.
And... it is keeping me from going nuts waiting on contractors to work on my house! I have worked from home for two weeks to meet with these people, and nobody seems to want my money. I need some stuff done before I can move on to the train room.
Kevin...... I've been following your thread all the way through like a fly on the wall.
Bless your soul in your attention to detail and structure.
Your idea for building model railroad benchwork is so well over the top all the inspectors I have ever dealt with my whole life would fade away in wonder.
This is a compliment not a cut. This is why I stayed away from your thread the whole time.
My whole reasoning, I would be a conflict of interest....... The next time I'm building a giant Deck with the possibility of a 200-person live load...... you Da man
You're a cool guy Kevin. I can see by the likes of you in your driveway and your red cars..... I like red cars,
I'm thinking about getting one of those yellow green ones, the color the construction guys wear. Paint my truck that color so I don't get T-Boned in my truck again.
Beautiful well thought out work I saw on your thread..... maybe overkill but beautiful work. I saw it, I like it.
Track Fiddler
I usede a bunch of that, from job sites, on my last layout, a center island, cab control, (2 cabs), with my home made version of a walk around throttle, which was a cheap Tyco type power pack, I could plug in at various spots around the layout.
I also used it to wire back to all of the Atlas block control switches I had on a wall mounted control panel.
Actually, I use that wire for just about everything.
I worked on lots of WWTF's and all of the communication cables were made of this type of wire, some had more than 2 prs., and I was able to collect rolls of the stuff. I still have some.
I never did find a use for the foil sheating, I even saved a pile of that!
Day 28, Post 1:
I bought a new communication/control cable for my MRC Cab 55 walk around throttle. I purchased 12 feet of 4 conductor shielded 22 gauge wire.
The outer cover plainly said 22 gauge wires.
I cut away a small piece and opened it up. The cable contains two pairs of wires that are twisted together, and a shield wrapping.
I was concerned because the red and black wires looked a lot smaller than the blue and white wires. I wanted all the wires to be 22 guage, and the red and black wires looked much smaller.
I was relieved to find the difference in diameter was all in the insulation, and the wires are in fact all 22 guage stranded and tinned wire.
Now I need to see what I need to do to feed this wire neatly into the MRC model 55 walkaround cab controller.
Day 27, Post 1:
I finished laying the trackwork on the upper level up to the big bridge. Everything was successful, but I only had a little over an hour to work on it today.
I drilled the ties as before and spiked on the outside of the rails. It sure is better spiking into Homasote than into plywood like I am used to.
It is looking like a train layout, just a little bit, but it is getting there.
Randy,
Yes, I was trying to answer that part of his question in one sentence.....
Sheldon: Thank you for answering all my questions, that makes good sense.
Randy: Maybe simpler is not the most correct, but it is what I am used to, and comfortable with. I can wire solid frog turnouts all day and never have problems or need to figure out anything new. They meet all my needs.
I am not trying to be like an old dog and ignore new tricks, but at the same time, I have a big "if it is not broken, don't fix it" sort of mentality about these things.
Not sure how having both point rails the same polarity simplifies DC wiring. Kind of has nothing to do with it, really. Plenty of other turnouts DON'T have the two points at the same polarity and don;t require anythign special for DC - points the same polarity or not are not what determines power routing capability, if that's what you are referring to - but using just the built in contacts for power routing isn't really reliable anyway, never had been - sure in the 'good old days' everyone did that, pull into a siding, flip the turnout back to the main, and the train on the siding stayed put because the power was cut off, but eventually those contacts stopped making good contact. Better to not rely on the point touching the stock rail to provide power and instead use swich machine contacts, or something driven by the switch machine. After all, with all the other overbuilding, why skimp here and rely on the turnout bits to conduct power?
The slightly more 'technical' explanation is, the Tortoise motors draw at 15ma stalled. Most LEDs are good for 20-25ma, so 15ma is well within the 'safe' range. This fellow Kirchoff long ago found out that when you have multiple loads in series, the current flowing through one is the same as the current flowign through any other - so if 15ma flows throught he Tortoise, 15ma will flow throught he LEDs. For the voltage side of things, the voltages add up. So if you feed 12V in, and the LEDs use 2V, the Tortoise gets 10V instead of the full 12V - which is more than enough, they still run fast enough, and the slightly lower voltage makes them quieter as well.
LEDs are current devices - the voltage doesn't matter too much, it's the current. Too much current and they blow up (sometimes literally). They are diodes, so they have a voltage drop, but it's in the range of 2-3 volts, instead of the typical .7V of a basic silicon diode. So you can feed an LED with a 12V power supply, so long as the current is limited to less than the maximum the LED is designed for. You cna feed the LED 6V. Or 9V.
The LEDs are inside the push buttons. The push buttons are right in the track diagram, so the LEDs light up the selected route.
Yes, the LEDs are in series with the Tortoise machine. This is a wiring method recommended by Circuitron. It is right in the instructions. Yes, the load of the stall motor provides the needed voltage drop, no resistors needed.
Because every turnout on my mainline can be operated from both the CTC panel and a local tower panel, that means there are two sets of LEDs in series with all the switch machines. This drops the voltage to the Tortoise by about 4 volts, making the operating voltage about 8 volts.
Keep in mind, this is just one circuit in a fully intergrated system.
Other contacts on these same relays provide track power routing for "X" sections, power frogs, and provide signal logic for interlocking signals.
rrinkerThere are plenty of turnouts that have all metal frogs without the silliness of having both point rails the same polarity
For my purposes, I don't find the point rtails being in a common circuit at all. This feature makes DC wiring more simple.
With DCC systems, I can see it being a real pain.
My turnouts are all new. For the past 24 months I have been buy all the "New Old Stock" (NOS) old style (non-DCC) Walthers/Shinohara turnouts I can get my hands on. I think I have enough to build my layout twice.
I thought it would be hard to get a good supply of these, but like the undecorated Proto 2000 freight cars of the same era, they are still not very hard to find if you travel and scrounge around.
I have made them harder to find... sorry.
Fascinating circuit Sheldon.
I have a question... You are using two LEDs to indicate turnout direction with the anode and cathode reversed so they change indication with polarity. These are connected in series with the Tortoise motor.
How do you get the correct voltage drop across the LEDs? Does this just happen naturally with no additional components? I have never checked voltage drop across a stalled tortoise with another component in series.
Also, it looks like you are operating the Tortoises with 12 volts. Is that a problem? I like to run mine at 6-8 volts. At 12 volts they slam to a stop too hard for my tastes, but if they will take it, I see no reason not to do it. I know they are rated at 12 volts.
I don't use latching relays, I use a traditional motor control holding circuit with 24V 4P2T relays. I use only normaly open buttons with built in LED's. This requires extra relays in some circuits.
The relays I bought years ago were inexpensive, about $3 ea. Some new from China, have held up well on a control system I built for a friend. And many I have bought surplus on Ebay - $1 to $3 each
Here is my schematic for a single turnout, it requires two relays. Crossovers and other interlockings with multiple turnouts only require one relay for each turnout.
I also use a relay circuit and push buttons to connect the wireless cabs to the blocks, which can all be done from the dispatchers panel, or at local tower panels as you walk around the layout.
More later, my alarm goes off early......
There are plenty of turnouts that have all metal frogs without the silliness of having both point rails the same polarity - which is the issue with those turnouts. Of course, if you already have a stockpile left over from previous layouts...
The latching relays are really only needed if you want to use pushbutton control for the Tortoise. There are also any number of stupidly simple 555 time circuits that do it electronically - see Rob Paisly's web site. You could use the Tortoise contacts to drive a multi-pole conventional relay to get enough contacts for any conceivable purpose. Or go all fancy pants like the servo controller I am designing - fully populated it is perfect for those old turnouts. Before starting to move, it turns off power to the frog. Then it moves, then it switches the frog polarity, then finally turns the frog power back on. Sub a DPDT relay for the frog polarity relay and you have a second set of contacts for signals - although my circuit already has indicator lights for the control panel (I'm using the same light up LED pushbuttons shown on the Canadian Canyons layout - they're not ridiculously expensive like some).
What is the contact arrangement of the relays you use? We use a lot of 4P2T 24 volt relays in power transfer switch controllers, but these are very pricey, and not self-latching.
Do you have a manufacturer and part number by any chance?
I would not use these to control many of my turnouts, but I can think of a location or two where they could be quite useful.
The relays I use have contacts rated at 5 amps, my power supplies (one for each wireless throttle) are rated at 4 amps.
I try to minimize wiring to the switch machines and do most of the wiring on my relay boards. That way more can be wired on the bench, and is easier to work on later.
I use Atlas turnouts mostly, power all frogs, and don't rely on switch points to transfer power. So I prefer the feed thru design of the Atlas, and use my relays for the power routing beyond the turnout.
Day 26, Post 1:
No pictures to post today. I am working from home again this week, and I am behind. I spent what little time I had available for hobby-fun today cleaning off the layout section and getting ready to start the wiring.
Tomorrow I should have a wiring update and progress to report.
hon30critterTo me it would seem more cost effective to use RC servos to move the switch points if you are not going to use the Tortoise internal switches.
I use the contacts on the Tortoises for panel indicators and trackside signals on the layout. Neither of these will be used on this little layout section.
rrinker Tortoise contact "issue" is really an issue. It is with older Walthers/SHinohara "non DCC friendly" turnouts, and it is if you simply hook power to the frog wire of a Peco Electrofrog without making any other modifications
I use old stlye (non-DCC) Walthers/Shinohara code 83 turnouts. Being a DC brass steam locomotive operator, the power routing feature and solid metal frogs are really a benefit.
ATLANTIC CENTRALA friend of mine does the extra limit switch thing, way over kill in my mind.
Well... I like over-kill. The microswitches are very inexpensive and the contacts are rated at plenty of current capacity, so I think it is worth it in this case.
As Randy points out, with truely isolated frogs, the built in contacts work just fine.
A friend of mine does the extra limit switch thing, way over kill in my mind.
I generally have leftover contacts on my turnout control relays so I seldom use the built in contacts.
I use relays with holding circuits so that turnouts can be controlled with sub minature led lighted push buttons, rather than toggles. The led's indicate position, and the same turnout can be controlled from multiple panels.
My mainline turnouts are controlled on both the dispatchers panel and a local tower panel. Tower panel controls can be disabled by the dispatcher, but all panels show status.
It all depends on what kind of turnouts you are using, if the Tortoise contact "issue" is really an issue. It is with older Walthers/SHinohara "non DCC friendly" turnouts, and it is if you simply hook power to the frog wire of a Peco Electrofrog without making any other modifications, but in the case of Atlas Custom Line is makes no difference if the contacts make or break before the points move. Or if a Fast Tracks turnout is made with the gaps cut per the instructions, or a Peco Electrofrog modified as shown on some sites (and not just for DCC - those mods make the turnout more reliable for DC as well).
Not sure if it's the FIRST article about it, but Mark Gurries has one:
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-problems/accessory-prob/tortoise-related/tortoise-powered-turnout-shorts