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Can I see some water pics?

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Can I see some water pics?
Posted by AltoonaRailroader on Wednesday, December 8, 2010 12:03 PM

One of the last things I have to do with my section #1 is pour some water for my pond/lake. I could use some inspiration and some advice on what others have learned from creating a water scene like products and supplies, techniques and pitfalls.

Here is a pic of my section and where the lake will be.

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Wednesday, December 8, 2010 12:21 PM

I use Envirotex Lite for my water.  I always do several pours, which is necessary for proper bubble-free curing anyway, but it also gives me the opportunity to tint the mixture a bit differently at each level.  This is the bottom level, showing some of the surrounding base.  I actually cut the stream so that I had real depth, but most of the illusion is from painting the base and tinting the water.  I used some real sand and rock castings for the stream bed and shoreline.

Here's the almost completed scene:

Downstream just a bit, I brought the trees in close to the shoreline, and ran the stream between two hydrocal rock castings, actually just small chips off of larger castings.  This is typical of a New England look.

The next scene is still my favorite.

Again, the waterfowl are from Preiser.  I use a lot of the light green "field grass" around my streams and ponds.  When you pour Envirotex, it tends to creep up the sides of its boundries.  So, I pour the Envirotex first, and after it hardens I touch up the edges.  I use Aileen's Tacky Glue to hold the field grass in place, and sometimes add bits of flocking or turf at the edges.

 

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Posted by selector on Wednesday, December 8, 2010 1:17 PM

For a pond or lake, I would paint the 'bottom' burnt umber and darker, and then fade it to a greenish tan toward the shore.  You can add grit for a pebbly bottom.  You can make your water crystal clear or murky. 

I made murky water, but with alluvial fines in it and glaciated water mixed with spring run-off such as found in the Thompson River in south-central British Columbia.

First I poured three layers of two-part epoxy found in the paints and finishes section of your hardware store.  In the third pour I added a pinch of Plaster of Paris for turbidity, and a half-drop of Huader Medium Green in the Wal Mart crafts section's acrylic paints.  For the final layer, all I did was spread a thin sheen of gel gloss medium, and then I turned the small foam brush on its side and stippled the spread gel gloss medium.  I am pleased to say I got the "Thompson" look about right.

Crandell

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Posted by mikelhh on Wednesday, December 8, 2010 4:19 PM

 I also used two-part epoxy resin from the hardware store. No evil odours with it, thankfully. Mine was poured in three layers, each layer tinted very slightly with acrylic paint. Brown first, then green, then blue-green because I didn't want a crystal clear trout stream.

 The bed was painted so it graded to a lighter gravelly colour around the edges.

 

The resin dries with a very high gloss as said on the pack. To get surface ripples I had to watch over it as the final layer dried, and I repeatedly worked a bamboo skewer and a toothpick through it until, after maybe 90 minutes they started to take. If you're doing a more sheltered pond you would probably want smaller surface ruffles, if anything, and maybe Woodland Scenics water effects might be the go.

If you use resin you'll find it bulges at the edges and you'll need to tease out theses bulges with a toothpick. In the next pic you can see the results if you don't do that. The plan had been to have a bridge pier in the foreground, which is why I hadn't bothered in that spot at that stage.

 

I used acrylic gloss medium to get some smaller ripples onto the surface.

Mike

Modelling the UK in 00, and New England - MEC, B&M, D&H and Guilford - in H0

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Posted by mikelhh on Wednesday, December 8, 2010 4:23 PM

I too would suggest you have a green to brown pond bed, rather than blue. It will look much more alive, like Mr B's.

 

Crandell that's a marvellous ruffled surface. I'd like to see some views from down nearer water level sometime Smile

 

Mike

Modelling the UK in 00, and New England - MEC, B&M, D&H and Guilford - in H0

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Posted by CTValleyRR on Wednesday, December 8, 2010 5:29 PM

I use acrylic gloss medium for my water, then touch up and add ripples with gloss gel.  Here is a picture of a diorama I built for Take a Model Train to Work day 2008.  The scenery and figures are a little slapdash -- a co-worker and I had a friendly competition, and I got in over my head with a farm at the other end, and didn't have time to do much on this end.  Photo isn't great, either.  It was taken in my cube at work, and would have looked better with a backdrop, an overhead "sky", and better lighting.  Still, notice how the water reflects the things behind it.  If you have sky in your backdrop, your water will look blue.

As others have said, the river is painted black, gradually fading to brown at the edges (I actually painted the black first, then added brown in progressively more dilute washes as I worked away from the edge.  The stream coming down the hill is gloss gel dry-brushed with gloss white acrylic paint to simulate the foam.

Note that the water is only about 1/4" thick.  From your scenery, it looks like you're expecting to make yours several inches deep.  This may not work that well -- you may want to build up the scenery base so you're not trying to build up 12+ pours of resin / medium / Realistic Water / whatever.

Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford

"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford

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Posted by selector on Wednesday, December 8, 2010 6:41 PM

mikelhh

Crandell that's a marvellous ruffled surface. I'd like to see some views from down nearer water level sometime Smile

 

Mike

Holy cow!!  This...from The Master?  Surprise  Big Smile  Well, thank-you, Mike.  I'll attempt a shot of some kind, probably a WPF shot since I'll have to set it up, and try to get well down to wave height.  I'll have to, uh....dust the water first.   It has been a while.

Crandell

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Posted by Mister Mikado on Wednesday, December 8, 2010 8:04 PM

Once again I'm picking my lower jaw up from the floor marveling at the workmanship quality of all the posters'  modeling here. Mike, those are superb ripples taken like a snapshot from real life. It's just incredible.

Rob

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Posted by grandeman on Wednesday, December 8, 2010 8:42 PM

Mister Mikado

Once again I'm picking my lower jaw up from the floor marveling at the workmanship quality of all the posters'  modeling here. Mike, those are superb ripples taken like a snapshot from real life. It's just incredible.

Rob

 

Yep. There is some beautiful modeling in this thread!

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Posted by doctorwayne on Wednesday, December 8, 2010 8:59 PM

Some older pictures of a few water features:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Water" is high gloss clear urethane over painted patching plaster.  Very durable.

 

Wayne

 

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Posted by selector on Wednesday, December 8, 2010 10:26 PM

Wayne, your high shot of the beach and waves with the switching tower is just awesome. They don't come better.

Mike, after some cleanup and setting up the "hill" (really a scenicked hand towel draped over a larger towel draped over the top handle of a stepping stool), this is about as good as its going to get with this 15" wide shelf. Without the temporary props, you would see the milled lumber lining the operating pit and the back part of the layout.

Crandell

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Posted by mikelhh on Wednesday, December 8, 2010 11:31 PM

Great water, Crandell. Very realistic. Thankyou for that.

 

Mike

Modelling the UK in 00, and New England - MEC, B&M, D&H and Guilford - in H0

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Posted by AltoonaRailroader on Thursday, December 9, 2010 9:26 AM

Thank you all so very much for your photos and advice. There's some amazing talent out there. Do you have any suggestions for mine? I'm really hoping doing the actual water will make it look like I want it too, but I feel that I'm missing some details. Confused

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Posted by selector on Thursday, December 9, 2010 11:05 AM

If you do a search, using a syntax such as "How to make water" in "Search Our Community" at the right, below all the ads, you are sure to find all sorts of posts and threads dealing with the topic.  There are many ways and products.  Care must be taken, patience, even some throw-away experiments are often advised.  Mock up a tiny lake or pond on a piece of suitable disposable material, a small piece of masonite waste, or some insulation foam board.  Figure out what paint to get the bottom to look 'close', and also try making an edge dam so that whatever medium you use for the water doesn't end up all over your carpet or floor.  If you have escape hatches for those liquids, they'll find every one of them...and use them.  Looks like you're going to have to dam the edge, so think about that.  I made sure the edge was clean and planar, and I pressed painter's masking tape, the green stuff, hard against the edge surface.  Even then, I placed three layers of newspaper under the pour area, and they were over a garbage bag that was placed on the floor first.

Once you use your pourable product, your choice, you should cover it.  Use stiff cardboard, use a length of dowel if you only have bristle board or a thin folder such as a file folder of cardstock to support the center of the folder...but do figure out a way to keep dust off the surface of your pour until it hardens.  After it hardens, you can always wipe it down or use a soft artist's brush when you see it has gotten dusty.

If you have bubbles in your mixed epoxy, and chances are excellent you will, it is normal.  Let the pour sit, use a skewer or tongue depressor, coffee stirrer, to spread the pour wide, and then let it settle.  After 5 minutes or more, take a soda straw in your mouth, place the lower open end close to the surface of the pour, but at a shallow angle, and gently blow against any bubbles.  They often disappear on their own, but blowing on them gives them a huge kick in the pants.

Crandell

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Posted by gandydancer19 on Thursday, December 9, 2010 1:41 PM

AltoonaRailroader

One of the last things I have to do with my section #1 is pour some water for my pond/lake. I could use some inspiration and some advice on what others have learned from creating a water scene like products and supplies, techniques and pitfalls.

Here is a pic of my section and where the lake will be.

 

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd207/wrench1103/IMG_2730.jpg

One tip.  If you plan on leaving those bolders in place, they should appear to be stuck in the bottom, not just sitting on top of it.  You may be able to flatten the bottoms of them by sanding.  Right now you can see shadows under them that would not be there in real life.  And if you are going to use a clear resin for the water, those shadows WILL show up.

 

Elmer.

The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.

(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.

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Posted by AltoonaRailroader on Thursday, December 9, 2010 6:03 PM

Elmer, you have a great eye. I never noticed the shadows. What if I filled in the lower gaps with some plaster or sculptamold? Try and blend them in a little bit. Unfortunately that is the plywood level of my benchwork so there's no down. If I do blend them in, should I spread it out gradually or just fill in the cracks around?

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Posted by AltoonaRailroader on Thursday, December 9, 2010 6:10 PM

The devil is in the details. Thanks Crandell, that's good advice for someone who's never done scenery at this level. I have some extra extruded foam and some masonite. I think I'll mock up a little water scene and use it as my test bed. Or maybe a couple little ones to see how different techniques work. I'm interested in the woodland scenics stuff that makes water foam and I like the ripples so I have to practice that. 

Think I'll check out You Tube for some video's on using this stuff.

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Posted by mikelhh on Thursday, December 9, 2010 6:23 PM

I think Elmer's advice about the rocks is right up there with his glue Thumbs Up Smile, Wink & Grin

Is it possible to get some replacements with flat bottoms? Then you could maybe space them less evenly as well.  Just a thought.

Mike

Modelling the UK in 00, and New England - MEC, B&M, D&H and Guilford - in H0

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Posted by gandydancer19 on Thursday, December 9, 2010 7:02 PM

AltoonaRailroader

Elmer, you have a great eye. I never noticed the shadows. What if I filled in the lower gaps with some plaster or sculptamold? Try and blend them in a little bit. Unfortunately that is the plywood level of my benchwork so there's no down. If I do blend them in, should I spread it out gradually or just fill in the cracks around?

Think of a silt bottom with bolders sitting in it.  Usually only the top parts would show.  This is what you need to figure out how to do with what you have.  If you are using real rocks, maybe you can find some with a flat side.  Or you can use some plaster castings of rock. 

I don't think that you could blend them in because it would make them look really big and tall.  Maybe you could blend in some smaller rocks.  If you have a scrap of plywood sitting around, try a test or two.

(PS  I am glad everyone likes my glue !! Laugh )

Elmer.

The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.

(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.

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Posted by gandydancer19 on Thursday, December 9, 2010 7:08 PM

AltoonaRailroader

Elmer, you have a great eye. I never noticed the shadows. What if I filled in the lower gaps with some plaster or sculptamold? Try and blend them in a little bit. Unfortunately that is the plywood level of my benchwork so there's no down. If I do blend them in, should I spread it out gradually or just fill in the cracks around?

Think of a silt bottom with bolders sitting in it.  Usually only the top parts would show.  This is what you need to figure out how to do with what you have.  If you are using real rocks, maybe you can find some with a flat side.  Or you can use some plaster castings of rock. 

I don't think that you could blend them in because it would make them look really big and tall.  Maybe you could blend in some smaller rocks.  If you have a scrap of plywood sitting around, try a test or two.

(PS  I am glad everyone likes my glue !! Laugh )

Elmer.

The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.

(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.

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Posted by cowman on Thursday, December 9, 2010 7:45 PM

I'm basing my answer on the idea that you plan to fill the entire area with "water."

I would take the rocks out, if you can.  Carve a piece of foam to nearly fill the pond and glue it in place.  I'd use latex caulk..  You want the finished surface (bottom of the pond) maybe a 1/2" below where you want the water level.  Fill in around the dock with some chunks of foam pushed down between the posts.  Cup the surface of your foam to the shape you want your pond bottom.  Mix up a batch of sculptamold or plaster and seal the bottom ot your pond, be sure to fill in under the dock.  You need a tight surface to hold the "water."  Push your stones into the wet sculptamold at this point.  Also, plant your reeds and place any other things you want in the water..

After the bed is dry, paint as suggested above, dark where deep, blended to lighter colors close to the shore. 

If you use two part epoxy, as I did, it is very clear.  Since I had only a small area to do, I used about 3/8" of each part in a 12 oz cup.  Since I did not want really clear water in my little swampy spot, I added a drop of Olive craft paint.  Pour the first layer about 1/8" thick.  If you think the coloration (whatever color you used is too dark, don't use as much color in the next pour.  I worked the edges as mentioned above and when the bubbles formed I just blew my breath over it until all the bubbles were gone.  I supported a piece of stiff paper (tin foil would have worked too) over the finished area, as my little basement layout can have "stuff" fall from above and I didn't want any dust or larger "stuff" in my water.  I was amazed at how nice it looked despite it being my first try.  My paint blending had not been quite as "blended" as I might do next time, but an extra drop of color in pout two helped disguise the oops.  I poured my third and final coat with a bit less color.  I had used a popcicle stick to stir the mix and I pushed the water around with that, then did the edges and around the reeds and stones with a tooth pick.  I covered the area with the "tent" after each pour.

The two part epoxy leaves a very smooth surface.  If you want some ripples I understand that WS Water Effects is very good for this

If I had a little (a lot) more camera and computer savy, I'd put a picture on.  Maybe someday.

Good luck,

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Friday, December 10, 2010 7:04 AM

AltoonaRailroader

 

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd207/wrench1103/IMG_2730.jpg

Cowman makes a good point about the base.  I figure on a measured depth for my water of about 1/4 to 3/8 inch.  I think your space looks like the water should be much deeper.  If I compare the dock with the nearby locomotive, it looks too high.

This is an earlier picture of the mill pond with the swans.  I work on pink foam, so I gouged out the pond shape, and then covered the surface with plaster cloth.

I rubbed the plaster cloth with Elmer's Glue (thanks again, Elmer) to seal the pinholes.  Envirotex does like to get through little holes like this.  Then, I applied Gypsolite, a gritty plaster, to give me a rough base.  I used cheap acrylic craft paints, real sand, Hydrocal rock castings and Woodland Scenics "talus" to create the pond base.  Everything was securely glued in place.  For the sand, I "ballasted" it in place with alcohol and thinned Elmers, just like with track ballast.  You don't want this stuff to break away and end up floating on top of your pond!  This pond is pretty pristine, but elsewhere I put in old tires, logs and barrels to make the pond or stream more interesting.

Maybe my best advice, though, is Don't Be Afraid.  I entered this whole Envirotex thing with a lot of fear and loathing.  I thought I was going to make a mess that would have to be removed.  Instead, the pond with the swans, my very first model water project, turned out to be one of my favorite scenes on the layout.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by dragenrider on Sunday, December 12, 2010 11:44 AM

Of course, you need the proper details, too.

The Cedar Branch & Western--The Hillbilly Line!

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Posted by AltoonaRailroader on Monday, December 13, 2010 9:30 AM

Already got my list made up for Santa. :)

Beach goers

Fisherman in the boat and one for the dock

Campers

 

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Posted by AltoonaRailroader on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:40 AM

Back again.

I've made a little progress on the pond. (Still no water yet Smile, Wink & Grin) but I'm getting there. I've removed the stones and have opt'd to no have them in the pond but I'm leaving the stick/log. Now  the new question is what can I purchase a lot of inexpensively for pouring the water. I checked at the LHS yesterday and all the had was the "real water" I think it was in a 12oz bottle for almost $18 a shot, I figured I'd need more than I could afford. I'd like to be able to pour about a 1/2 an inch for the pond. BUT! I'm not completely adverse to filling in some of the pond too to make it a lil more shallow. I went a little crazy when I first did this, hence the giant pond and this discussion. Confused.

What do you all think now? Should I fill it in a little or get a lot of epoxy filler?

Help please.

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Posted by selector on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:31 AM

The cost of filling it with epoxy is about seven times what it would be with plaster or almost anything else.  If you were to fill it with some sand first, level it, and then pour soupy plaster over it, you could even save more....although it would be heavier at that location by a couple of pounds or more.  You could even use a plug of wood that is thin enough and cut to fit, and pour plaster over that.  It would be lighter than filling it with sand.

Crandell

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 12:08 PM

Go to www.acmoore.com and find the coupon.  It's under "Store Locator" in my area.  Pretty much every week, they have a coupon good for 40 or 50  percent off on one item.  Both AC Moore and Michaels carry Envirotex Lite.  You're right - it's expensive, but that coupon helps a lot.  Where I live, AC Moore and Michaels will accept each other's coupons.  Michaels has coupons, too, but I can never find them on their web site.  The Sunday newspaper also has coupons.

While you're there, stroll around.  They have craft paints, brushes, glue, balsa wood, foamboard and other modeling supplies.  I've even found Woodland Scenics trees there.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by AltoonaRailroader on Thursday, December 30, 2010 10:27 AM

Thanks for the input Crandall. I like the piece of wood plug idea. I have some scrap panneling that would allow me to raise it to just the right level maybe 1/4 or 3/8 then I won't have to pour so much.

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Posted by AltoonaRailroader on Thursday, December 30, 2010 10:30 AM

Thanks Mister B.

I'll take a look for the coupons. I was just at AC Moore around Christmas and they have a HUGE Woodland Scenics display with everything from ground foam to people and rock molds. I hate to say it, but they carry the stuff there more than at my LHS.

Thanks,

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Posted by Jumijo on Thursday, December 30, 2010 11:52 AM

 

Below is a photo of a river being added to our new N scale layout. Acrylic paints coated with gloss medium.

 

Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale

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