Sir Madog True, they are all meant to be stand-alones, but the idea of creating a little "empire" of interconnected, individual scenes is fascinating. How about designing a connecting "black box" to disguise the change in scenery?
True, they are all meant to be stand-alones, but the idea of creating a little "empire" of interconnected, individual scenes is fascinating. How about designing a connecting "black box" to disguise the change in scenery?
You are right - I was too categorical. I was trying to communicate that just stringing standalone switching layouts together with some mainline between wouldn't necessarily work well for a larger layout.
You certainly can connect several small shadow box style layouts if you want to. Either connect the separate shadow boxes physically (e.g. by having portals/holes in the "backdrop" or "sidedrop" on both layouts match up), or connect the shadow boxes operationally (e.g. using a train cassette to transfer cars and/or trains from one layout to another - e.g moving stuff left on an interchange track on one layout onto the interchange track of another layout).
Physically connected scenes obviously can be connected with or without a black box in between two scenes simulating a longer running distance between the scenes (drive into the tunnel, wait 10 minutes, run into next scene.
In either case, it makes most sense to me if the scenes connected are set in the same era and same area, so it makes sense to have a train that passed through scene 2 appear in scene 1, scene 3 or scene 4, depending on the route taken out of scene 2.
So as long as you are still just running with one operator and one train at a time, you are okay, as long as the scenes are not too jarringly disjoint in time era and location (it would look pretty yucky, in my opinion, to have an Acela first running through a 1990s scene from the NE corridor, then past a small town at the end of a prairie line in the 1940s, then past a Colorado narrow gauge mining railroad set in the 1890s).
Or building the Milwaukee Road Beer Line in indivudual, but interconnected scenes? Maybe a good idea for a club layout...
Mmmm - the basic approach of modular model railroads is that each scene can be built on its own, but interconnected into a far bigger layout through the use of a standardized end profile - either personal/club module standards like the Milwaukee Road Beer Line or David Barrow's dominios (mentioned by Svein earlier in this thread) or by the use of standards followed by more people (like FREMO or Free-mo or Ntrak or Austrak).
That is often a good idea for a club setup, since it is flexible - modules can be swapped out for new modules if a member moves or changes modelling interests. Provided that the modules are big enough to allow reasonable length sidings etc.
The modular approach usually try to make each module visually complete (and visually compatible), though - it is normally not considered desirable to need a visual viewblock on the right and left end of each module down along a modular setup.
But I still think I would have most likely have wanted to redesign a larger layout as a whole if I was going to run it operationally as a larger layout - to review the interdependencies between desired train lengths, staging capacity, number and length of sidings, classification capacity, types of runs, run lengths, possible routings and so on and so forth.
Smile, Stein
MPRR I would be interested to see how these small shelf designs would fit in the "grand scheme of things". Take all of your different ideas, and designs and connect them all into a giant empire. Each design could be a seperate town miles away from each other.
I would be interested to see how these small shelf designs would fit in the "grand scheme of things". Take all of your different ideas, and designs and connect them all into a giant empire. Each design could be a seperate town miles away from each other.
Wouldn't work.The layouts in this thread are not designed as scenes that could be integrated in a larger layout (or at least - it would take a major redesign to make these into scenes on a larger layout) - they are quite deliberately designed as standalone switching modules.
For one thing - note the extensive use of partial buildings along the left and right side of the layouts here. Works when the world ends there. But it would be hard to create a natural looking transition from pretty cramped downtown area to "miles of track before next town".
Here is a couple of examples of scenes designed for possible later inclusion in a larger layout:
I would be interested to see how these small shelf designs would fit in the "grand scheme of things". Take all of your different ideas, and designs and connect them all into a giant empire. Each design could be a seperate town miles away from each other. I like all of the desigs you guys came up with. Keep up the good work.. I hope to see some progress shots of the design you deside to build.
DJOIf this is a dcc powered railroad, how do you set up the power distrits with all of those switches?
If this is a dcc powered railroad, how do you set up the power distrits with all of those switches?
Don't need separate power districts for a small railroad with just one operator - when you create a short and things stops, there is no point in still having power to another part of the layout be a separate power district so other people won't be affected by the short.
Stein,
as it will take some while before I can start to build any layout, I´ll make use of the time to collect ideas, applying the motto "the better is the enemy of the good". Your Fed Street layout is thrilling!
The two of us should collect all these ideas systematically and publish a book
Sir Madog After a little research in the internet, I found a homepage with a lot of helpful hints and ideas for shelf layouts. I "borrowed" one of the ideas and transformed it into this:The track plan is pretty close to the original, just omitting a three-way switch. Does it look familiar, Stein? Hope you don´t mind me "stealing" your idea... The track is all Atlas Code 83 flex-track and no.6 super switches, the double slip switch is Peco Code 83.
After a little research in the internet, I found a homepage with a lot of helpful hints and ideas for shelf layouts. I "borrowed" one of the ideas and transformed it into this:
The track plan is pretty close to the original, just omitting a three-way switch. Does it look familiar, Stein? Hope you don´t mind me "stealing" your idea...
The track is all Atlas Code 83 flex-track and no.6 super switches, the double slip switch is Peco Code 83.
LOL - my old living room layout plan? I don't even think it got a proper name - just "industrial switching in 2x7 feet" or some such thing. Looks much better with your buildings and scenery superimposed on the track plan than the layout ever did in my living room - where it got about half built before I changed prototypes.
Btw - sorry to keep throwing new ideas at you all the time, but that Federal Street plan has kept moving around up in my head. Here is a variant of some of the ideas from Federal Street in 2 x 8 1/2 feet - I am calling this one "Federal Overpass".
It has some of the same elements as federal street - diagonals, street crossing the layout, small buildings in the front you look over, big factories in the back.
Any good, or just more confusion ?
Smile,Stein
Hi Stein,
we had a terrible thunderstorm yesterday evening - so I did not dare to switch on my computer. No major damage in our area, though. The more I look at my plan, the less I start to like the "tangled spaghetti" track work in the middle of it. No railroad would do that - too expensive. I guess I have to do some more research and planning -. It´s a challenge...
... which I took up again. After a little research in the internet, I found a homepage with a lot of helpful hints and ideas for shelf layouts. I "borrowed" one of the ideas and transformed it into this:
steinjrSir Madog Stein, you have a certain way of putting things to the point! You are right - it is not the operation, but the overall look of this plan I like about it. Somehow there is a picture of it in my head, generated while I was drawing it.I am also a little unsure about the operations - I need to learn to think more in ops terms. Is there a way to "simplify" this plan while keeping its character? Must be, but I haven't found it yet. Let me first put labels on the existing layout, so it is easier to refer to tracks while discussing how they could be used. Ooops - time to cook dinner - my turn to cook today. More later.
Sir Madog Stein, you have a certain way of putting things to the point! You are right - it is not the operation, but the overall look of this plan I like about it. Somehow there is a picture of it in my head, generated while I was drawing it.I am also a little unsure about the operations - I need to learn to think more in ops terms. Is there a way to "simplify" this plan while keeping its character?
you have a certain way of putting things to the point! You are right - it is not the operation, but the overall look of this plan I like about it. Somehow there is a picture of it in my head, generated while I was drawing it.
I am also a little unsure about the operations - I need to learn to think more in ops terms.
Is there a way to "simplify" this plan while keeping its character?
Must be, but I haven't found it yet. Let me first put labels on the existing layout, so it is easier to refer to tracks while discussing how they could be used.
Ooops - time to cook dinner - my turn to cook today. More later.
Well, both the wife and our two kids (and I) survived dinner, so I can't have botched it too badly :-)
Have been mucking around with this track plan. I am not sure that this is an actual improvement, but here is a suggestion:
Main changes:
1) Added an extra crossover between the running main (track 3-4 in the original plan) and the rear/top industry track, allowing you to switch two of the five industries without having to move cars at other industries at all, making sure that you never will have to move cars at more than one other industry to switch one of the industries that are behind other industries, and making sure that you won't have to shuttle back and forth several times to get at the car or car spot you want.
2) Moving the tracks to the dockside industries on the bottom/left side away from the middle diagonal yard track, and moving the runaround up to the main running track above the yard.
Of course, the core problem has not been solved - that 6 industries/spurs are are on spurs where an engine moving cars from the yard to industries (or the other way around) needs to make a runaround move, while only three industries (packing plant, dept store and maybe pai co) are on spurs where movement from the yard to industry spots do not require runaround moves. In an ideal world, the yard is oriented the same way as the industries - so an engine grabs cars and back out before driving forward again into the right spot for the car.
steinjr Ooops - time to cook dinner - my turn to cook today. More later. Smile, Stein
... did that only once in 25 years of marriage. My wife used to teach cooks in a vocational school - no chance to create anything that withstands her discerning eye or tongue.
Enjoy!
Sir Madog Stein, you have a certain way of putting things to the point! You are right - it is not the operation, but the overall look of this plan I like about it. Somehow there is a picture of it in my head, generated while I was drawing it.I am also a little unsure about the operations - I need to learn to think mor in ops terms. Is there a way to "simplify" this plan while keeping its character?
I am also a little unsure about the operations - I need to learn to think mor in ops terms.
Sir Madog Did some finetuning work on my favorit plan - the fictious Milwaukee Fed Str. Yard. Unless I come up with something better, this will be it... Found a way to squeeze out the extra couple of feet of space needed, but this is the max now SWMBO will allocate to me.
Did some finetuning work on my favorit plan - the fictious Milwaukee Fed Str. Yard. Unless I come up with something better, this will be it...
Found a way to squeeze out the extra couple of feet of space needed, but this is the max now SWMBO will allocate to me.
Well, if that's the one you like the best, that's the one you like best.
I don't think I would have picked that one if I was picking a design for myself. Track plan creates too convoluted moves for my taste when it comes to switching - there seems to be very few moves that can be done in an easy way from the yard tracks to to the industries or the other way around.
Anyways - what are your favorite features from this plan?
The deeper I dig into the subject of small shelf-type switching layouts, the more I start to like them. They are a challenge to design, to build and to operate - may be even a little more, than bigger layouts. Is that the reason they are so popular in the UK?
Anyway, I am still collecting ideas...
Sir MadogStein,you are a fountain of information!
you are a fountain of information!
Unfortunately I do not have the "change" any longer to purchase those issues of MRP you mentioned
Then again - look on the bright side - if Kalmbach had published a series of books with shelf plans only (as I think you suggested), those books would have been about three times the price of an back issue of MRP, and would have been even further away from being affordable.
And having the old MRPs, it is quick to summarize ideas from such track plans. E.g. Linda Sand's 1 x 8 foot layout from MRP 2006 looked roughly like this (my interpretation of her plan, not a photo copy of the plan):
Some ideas of making such a small plan more interesting operationally - some mentioned by Sand in the accompanying article in the 2006 MRP, some mentioned by her (and others) in other articles elsewhere:
Modeling _one_ larger industry with multiple car spots makes for a more interesting flow of traffic than modelling four or five tiny industries that take one boxcar each - and will spend three weeks using up the stuff inside that one boxcar.
Here there is not a lot of structure to build - two or three flats along the back track, two or three chemical tanks (or trackside pumps) and a shipping building at the front left. But you can build those background structures big - say 4 stories big. Plenty of space to make them seem like a part of a big plant.
You got three little bridges over a creek here. One built for the in-plant switch lead. One built for one railroad (in Linda's article Wisconsin Central) main. One build for an interchange track from another railroad (in Linda's article C&NW, later UP). Can be built in totally different styles, with totally different balast colors and styles.
You can have the crossing of the two railroads over in the front right corner, and scratchbuild a small tower in a suitable style.
This plan has 10-11 car spots - I've labelled them R1 and R2 (for receiving spot 1 and 2), P1 and P2 (for powerhouse spot 1 and 2), W1 and W2 (for Wood unloading spots 1 and 2), C1 and C2 (chemical spot 1 and 2), S1 and S2 for shipping spot 1 and spot 2 and T1 for "Team track" spot 1.
You can add all kinds of interesting rules - like "Kaolin sludge in covered hoppers must be delivered to R2, where they can be unloaded into a tank truck". Or "road must not be blocked more than 15 minutes at a time, to allow town emergency vehicles access to houses on the other side of the WC main". Or "Old WC main between the interchange track and the old C&NW/WC tower can be used for temporary storage of cars".
It would even be possible to have an engine from the railroad the plant is located along take the cars from the interchange track and shove them into the plant, where the plant switcher takes over, thus modeling two railroads (within-plant RR and class 1 RR) in this tiny amount of space.Of so, you could drop the in-plant runaround.
Or you can just allow the plant switcher trackage rights on the main over to the interchange track.
Lots of options packed into a small layout, isn't it ?
i know what you mean, Ulrich. i don't want to get too political either but the way things are going, the whole country could find itself in a fuhrer, oops, i meant furor.
grizlump
Unfortunately I do not have the "change" anylonger to purchase those issues of MRP you mentioned
I know we should not get political in this forum, but this financial crisis is affecting all of us, whereever we are in the world. Our hobby is also affected, with more and more companies filing insolvency or just going out of business. Marklin/Trix/LGB and Mehano are only the more spectacular cases. It is not only a credit crunch anymore - it is a desease which may impose a threat to many a democracy all over the world - also Germany! We will have general elections in September and I expect a tremendous gain in votes for both the socialistic "Left" party as well as ... (expletive, deleted) "national Rights".
I am woriied!
DigitalGriffinIt seems everyone, except retires, is effected by the downturn now.
What makes you think that retirees are exceptions to the rule? Have you noticed the stock market and/or interest rates and/or home prices during the recent economic disaster? And remember that retirees don't have the time to recover that younger folks do. We all are being hit hard, some obviously and tragically harder than others.
Dante
Sir Madog Stein, I took your idea and transformed it into using Atlas Code 83 track and no.6 turnouts. Another step in the right direction. Here it is:
I took your idea and transformed it into using Atlas Code 83 track and no.6 turnouts. Another step in the right direction.
Here it is:
Looks good to me!
A suggestion to MR´s staff - why don´t you run a series or even make a book about "scenic" shelf switchers? Not all of us have the space (and the money) to build one 0f those 15´by 30´ or even bigger layouts, filling an entire basement.
Well, they have several books which show small shelf switching layouts. Several (most) issues of Model Railroad Planning has shelf switching layouts.
MRP 2006 has Ian Rice on sectional shelf layouts and Mike Aufterderheide's "Modeling the Monon's Hoosier Hub", Linda Sand's excellent "Industrial Railroad on a shelf"and an excellent article by David Barrow: "From model railroad to railroad model" where he shows a linear shelf layout based on LDEs, and a scene (Elevator A) from Chuch Hitchcock's Argentine Industrial District Railway
MRP 2005 e.g. has Scot Osterweil's adaptation of Linn Westcott's Switchman's Neightmare and Byron Henderson's Alameda Belt Line
MRP 2004 has en interesting plan based on Long Island's Oyster Bay Branch and a 4x8 Illinois Midland model railroad improved by turning it into an L shaped shelf layout
MRP 2003 was a theme issues - with 9 bookcase layout (small shelf layouts that would fit on top of a bookcase): including Bernie Kempinski's New York Cross Harbor and two good plans by forum regular Dave Husman, plus some ideas by Tony Koester on how to model big industries on small shelves.
Most issues of MRP has some good shelf plans in addition to bigger plans. This was just a random selection of four issues from the pile next to my computer.
tcf511The do have a book out about Shelf Layouts. It is written by Iain Rice. It doesn't have too many layout plans but does discuss the theory and a lot of options in building a shelf layout. I found it very useful as I try to design my first shelf layout. Good luck with everything.
The do have a book out about Shelf Layouts. It is written by Iain Rice. It doesn't have too many layout plans but does discuss the theory and a lot of options in building a shelf layout. I found it very useful as I try to design my first shelf layout. Good luck with everything.
... was delivered to me last week - a good book for those who have not yet built a shelf layout. Could have more track plan examples, for my taste.
Hey Ulrich
I'm so sorry you are having problems. The economy is hitting a lot of us hard. It seems everyone, except retires, is effected by the downturn now.
The pier front switching layout you are working on looks like a good fit. I have several variations of a pier front I've done myself. The advantage of a pier front layout is you can use short wheelbase switchers which handle R18" well. So you can get away with #4 turnouts if you want. (Providing you don't have anything over 50'->55' scale feet cargo wise)
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Tim Fahey
Musconetcong Branch of the Lehigh Valley RR
Found another interesting one - from the Carendt site. Switching urban layout with elvated mainline at front of layout, looking down over the front structures for the switching.
Original can be viewed here: http://www.carendt.com/scrapbook/page62/index.html
An adaptation to 8 1/2 foot long with 2 feet cassettes and 30" deep (little deeper than the 24" you wanted):
Allows you to have a mainline train arrived on the elevated rail, run around its cars and shove the cars "onto a car float" or "into a siding" or some such thing (ie onto cassette).
Then move the cassette down to the switching area at the bottom rear, and have a smaller switcher come out and start grabbing outbound cars and inbound cars and do it's thing.
toughen up, things will get better. it all takes time.
now about your model railroad. my entire basement layout is done in the "urban grunge" theme. i have never enjoyed making trees etc. so my railroad's neighbors are other railroads (as in E St Louis) and factory buildings. my walls are lined with walls and instead of pastoral scenery, i have streets and sidewalks.
justification for this idea came from two sources. when i first went to work on the old Big Four at Brooklyn Illinois, we had to climb through the Wabash yard to get to our yard and across the main line was the GM&O yard. at least four other railroads used our main line. second source was my first train ride from Philly to New York. almost a hundred miles and we were never out of town. every time i looked out the window all i could see was the back side of a building with an occasional street or highway.
Sorry to hear about your circumstance. Its good to have a diversion to take your mind off your problems.
Here's another suggestion for an industrial switching track plan...follow the link to Scot Osterweil's shelf layout plans:
http://www.carendt.com/articles/highland/index.html
I'm currently building a shelf layout using this track plan. Although the plan calls for a 1' x 6' shelf, I'm using an 18" wide hollow core door as the base. This gives me some extra space at the front edge for some street and storefront scenery and a few inches at the left and right ends for additional structures to "frame" the layout. Take a look at this plan...it may work for you.
Bruce J.
There seems to be a family tradition in having to start up all over again. My grandfather lost everything he had and could save only his bare life in the wake of WW I and WW II, my father nearly lost his skin during the terror reign of that Austrian with this funny moustache and I seem to be a victim af the global financial crisis, which is somewhat like a war...
It is good to know that there are fellow model railroader and friends out there in the world, with whom we can keep in touch through forums (fori!) like this one.
Stein, as usual your plan is just ... wow!
Phoebe Vet - I am a lone wolf - modelling US prototype is not very common in my area, most clubs have German themes. I have been dreaming of having a US model railroad since I was an exchange student to the US back in the early 70´s.
Thanks to all of you!