... borrowed again, from you, Stein!
Those two highways passing over the track give a lot of "urban scenery" and depth to it ...
So it´s just another plan on the path to my "ultimate" plan. I hope I do not run out of food for thought, as planning and collecting ideas is all I can do for the moment. I have to get rid of that ... tremor in my right hand first, before I can start any work...
Sir Madog ... Just because I have started to love drawing up new track plans - here is one more idea, taken from MR´s book "48 Top-notch Track Plans". Did not know that I still had the book, bought more than a decade ago. Here is the plan:
... Just because I have started to love drawing up new track plans - here is one more idea, taken from MR´s book "48 Top-notch Track Plans".
Did not know that I still had the book, bought more than a decade ago.
Here is the plan:
I have that book too and it has several interesting plans (Art Curren's Break The Rules for instance).
I have looked upon this plan many times and each time a buzzer went of in my head suggesting something was wrong. Only this morning while once again reflecting upon it did I notice that Larry Forgard, the designer, probably intended to give the impression of a double track line. I always assumed this was a junction of a single track and double track line but it isn't. It is a junction of 2 single track lines where one line has a runaround and leads to serve industries which give the impression of double track. The key is the crossover at the right side, opposite the bottling plant. Oh well, better late than never.
If I would build this plan, I would change the orientation of that crossover at the right side. Either move it to the right so it is a junction of double and single track or move it to the left of the junction switch (making it a junction of 2 single track lines) so the runaround does not interfere with a train running from right to lower left.
I would also build it in N-scale, probably at least 6 feet long or 2 meters even to make sure I could use them as modules.
greetings,
Sir Madog ... Just because I have started to love drawing up new track plans - here is one more idea, taken from MR´s book "48 Top-notch Track Plans". Did not know that I still had the book, bought more than a decade ago.Here is the plan:
Mmm - this one doesn't have a lot of industry spots, and has quite a few switchbacks to get into the two uppermost industries. But it definitely has scenic possibilities - I like the junction look and the RR overpasses over the road - those really say "urban".
Smile, Stein
marcimmekerInteresting place, I can see the potential for a module here. A couple of questions. - was there a run around in the past? - if not and if you need one, were would you like to have it? - the building in the upper right (in the corner of the lead and W. Silver Spring Drive), did it have doors at the lead end of the building? Thanks for psoting this!
Interesting place, I can see the potential for a module here. A couple of questions.
- was there a run around in the past?
- if not and if you need one, were would you like to have it?
- the building in the upper right (in the corner of the lead and W. Silver Spring Drive), did it have doors at the lead end of the building?
Thanks for psoting this!
I don't think there was a runaround down in there. Looks like there was a runaround up on the main. Would just have to have things lined up before you go down in there. The middle track on the south end would have probably stayed clear, to enable shoving ahead to spot.
By zooming in closer, there is a roll-up door on the south end of the building next to the lead, and track peeking out. The switch seems to be long gone.
Stein's plan has it pretty good. If there is room, more curveature would be nice, but it seems to capture the flavor pretty good. Could use pretty sharp turns, 18-22" radius in HO scale.
Must have taken a while to switch the place out when all the tracks were in, and things were busy. I think the switchback lead holds 5-6 cars plus 1 engine.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
Ray,
whenever I draw up a track plan, I do it with a lot of imagination on how it would look like when built up. It is exactly what you say, it is the little details that create the atmosphere, the "Wow"-feeling. What´s the sense running a super-detailed loco thru a non-detailed scenery?
That is also the reason why I always add some details, like structures, roads etc. to make track plans - to kindle my imagination.
cuyama rayw46 I think this idea is called something like Individual design elements. The term is "Layout Design Element", or LDE. These are sections of the prototype (real-life) railroad to be replicated on the layout. The challenge for the original poster is that there are relatively few small sections of real-life railroads that will have the "Wow" factor he is seeking. In order to get that much appeal in that small a layout area, some significant editing and enhancing of real life may be needed. Not impossible, it's just unlikely that any real-life stretch of railroad will have what the orignal poster is seeking, since he has already found a number of fine small layouts to be lacking the "Wow" factor he is seeking.
rayw46 I think this idea is called something like Individual design elements.
I think this idea is called something like Individual design elements.
The term is "Layout Design Element", or LDE. These are sections of the prototype (real-life) railroad to be replicated on the layout. The challenge for the original poster is that there are relatively few small sections of real-life railroads that will have the "Wow" factor he is seeking. In order to get that much appeal in that small a layout area, some significant editing and enhancing of real life may be needed. Not impossible, it's just unlikely that any real-life stretch of railroad will have what the orignal poster is seeking, since he has already found a number of fine small layouts to be lacking the "Wow" factor he is seeking.
I think the issue seems to be this, "Wow," thing. The, "Wow," is not going to come from the track plan, especially on a small switching laylout? A switching trackplan is a switching trackplan and that's about it. A lot of people like operating in a prototype manner and some of them have gone for the, "minimalist approach;" no scenery, cardboard structures, etc. That's all well and good, it's their railroad, they can do what they want. But are you going to say, "Wow," when you see such a layout? I doubt it. The, "Wow," comes when the modeler adds the super-detailed scenes; the beautifully modeled rock work, trees, structures, etc. That can be done on a small switching layout. I've even seen dioramas with just one piece of track running across it and said, "Wow." That's because the modeler took the track plan and modeled a representation of the real world, or maybe a world from their imagination, around it. So, if someone is looking for a trackplan that, "Wows," them, he or she will probably be out of luck. But when the modeler takes that trackplan, adds their imagination, time, talent and hard work to it, then, "WOW."
Ray
It's not Milwaukee (and not very "scenic" either ), but I've often thought that this area in Detroit near Delray might be a good candidate for a switching layout of some sort. Maybe you could give it a MILW flavor. Anyway, FWIW:
Live Search
The Detroit Produce Terminal is in the upper right, lower left is an intermodal facility, and the branch curving off on the right is the Delray Connecting Railroad, which serves US Steel's Great Lakes Works and other industries. Lots of variety in car types here.
marcimmekerInteresting place, I can see the potential for a module here. A couple of questions. - was there a run around in the past?
Just follow the track north of the Silver Spring Drive RR overpass - there is a runaround (or something that may have been a runaround) over there.
Here is an attempt at a module based on this location:
This one probably would be better in N scale - it would take just 8-10 feet in N scale.
Grin, Stein
WSOR 3801 Here is a smaller industry area in the Milwaukee area that could be worth modeling. Map Bird's eye view Starting from lower left, the mainline heads up and to the right. There is a switch right past the bridge for the lead. The line then goes down, pretty steep hill. The building at upper right hides the end of the tail track, but not much further is a street. Here are some views from inside the area. The only place in there now is a paperboard plant, but it looks like either they did a lot more business, or other industry was in that 2-block area.
Here is a smaller industry area in the Milwaukee area that could be worth modeling.
Map
Bird's eye view
Starting from lower left, the mainline heads up and to the right. There is a switch right past the bridge for the lead. The line then goes down, pretty steep hill. The building at upper right hides the end of the tail track, but not much further is a street.
Here are some views from inside the area.
The only place in there now is a paperboard plant, but it looks like either they did a lot more business, or other industry was in that 2-block area.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
There's a lot of information in this thread so I don't know if any one has mentioned specifically the following site, http://carendt.com/ . I know that some specific trackplans have been referenced but go the the main site. It's fun to browse throught the many trackplans available and the monthly newsletter going back several years that features actual layouts that modelers have built. The layouts are mostly all micro and macro layouts but if you have a little more room the layouts could be expanded.
Also, Tony Koester, a contributer to Model Railroad Magazine, has championed the idea of taking a small portion of a prototype railroad and building a small layout or module based on that. Compression is almost always necessary but the idea is that one day it could be a portion of a larger layout. I think this idea is called something like Individual design elements. Maybe there's a railroad near you, or one you remember from you past, that has an interesting track plan or industry you could model. Someone have rightly noted that it's better to build a model of a prototype than a model of someone else's model.
I hope everything works out for you.
Hi Marc,
not so long ago, they had 31 copies left.... Took them only 5 days to deliver it to me.
I guess it was MR´s feature on the Beer Line that attracted me to the Milwaukee Road, plus the fact that a friend of mine gave me an Athearn Genesis MP15AC in Milwaukee Road livery. And I like Beer...
Hi Ulrich,
I hope all will be well (Ich werde die Daumen drücken für Dich).
If you are interested in the Milwaukee Road, I recommend you go to the website of the Milwaukee Road Historical Society and buy their books about the Beer line (of MR fame) in Milwaukee and the book about Chicago. I have both and recommend them heartily. The Chicago book is very fascinating with lots of pictures from the air taken by the company photographer. As far as I am aware the society's quarterly publication regularly has an article with these aerial views.
See here for the books:
http://www.mrha.com/catlist.cfm?passid=BK
The one about the beer line has only 30 copies left....
Marc
Yes, Sir, that´s what I am! And it all started, when Santa (my parents) brought me a Marklin starter set in 1963, together with a Faller kit for a little train stop. I still have that. In the 1970´s MR had a poem about a guy like me, does any one remember it? Must have been in 1971 or ´72.
Came from the doctor´s this morning - must have had a minor stroke a short while ago. Makes me worry...
Sir MadogWhat do I expect from my layout? I´d like to use the term "operational diorama" in an urban setting (preferably Milwaukee Road area), allowing for a realistic operation that does not get boring after 5 minutes, but could keep 2 people "busy" for 30 - 45 minutes in a session.Am I a helpless case ?
What do I expect from my layout? I´d like to use the term "operational diorama" in an urban setting (preferably Milwaukee Road area), allowing for a realistic operation that does not get boring after 5 minutes, but could keep 2 people "busy" for 30 - 45 minutes in a session.
Am I a helpless case ?
You are probably an incurable model train nut, like the rest of us :-)
Some prototype photos of Milwaukee Road trackage in Minneapolis, for possible inspiration:
View of downtown Mpls from the Milwaukee Depot
Corner of the Milwaukee Railroad Yard in Minneapolis
Switcher by North Start Woolen Mills in Minneapolis
Grain elevators along Hiawatha Avenue, Mpls
Smile,Stein
I guess my "Wow"-effect comes from the level of detail and a highlky realistic look of small and individual scenes on my layout. I am not the type of model railroader who wants to build that basement filling layout with spectacular mountain scenery, sweeping curves, 50+ car trains etc., that will never come close to being finished in some sense of the word. I have always built small and very individual layouts with a focus on detail.
Sir Madog I now have a number of plans - could fill a scrapbook - but still I don´t have that wow-feeling. What am I doing wrong? Too much thinking and planning?
I now have a number of plans - could fill a scrapbook - but still I don´t have that wow-feeling. What am I doing wrong? Too much thinking and planning?
I guess you will just have to reevaluate your goals and try to formulate to yourself why you want a layout and what you want from a layout.
What makes you go "wow" ? What era(s), locations(s), type of railroading inspire you ? Have you looked at prototype pictures from earlier times in various places ?
If you are expecting one of these small switching plans to "wow" you as much as a room-sized layout, you may continue to be disappointed. This thread has included some great plans, some good ones, and some poor ones. But it's not likely that any track plan in 2X8 or 2X10 feet will have as much appeal as a well-designed layout for a 10X10 or 10X12 room.
One of the great things about small layouts is you can build and finish them relatively quickly, enjoy them for a while, then revise or rebuild them if they become too familiar. I'd suggest that you might be happier if you could embrace the positives of the smaller layout without dwelling on the limitations or expecting to find a "perfect' small plan.
ByronModel RR Blog
Stein,
... that´s where I "borrowed" the idea from.
Sir Madog Ok, the bug has bitten! I am still ins earch of the ultimate plan for a small shelf layout. The following is an adaption of Bob Smaus´ Port of L.A. RR, which MR covered somewhere in the 1990´s.
Ok, the bug has bitten! I am still ins earch of the ultimate plan for a small shelf layout. The following is an adaption of Bob Smaus´ Port of L.A. RR, which MR covered somewhere in the 1990´s.
http://mrsvc.blogspot.com/2008/09/smaus-port-of-la-inspirational-layout-1.html
Lance Mindheim says, that the greater the knowledge on RR operation, the less track you need - am I on the "right track" now?
Lance Mindheim will be publishing a new book on small switching layouts - check his web page for the announcement.
http://www.lancemindheim.com/news_and_notes.htm
If it is within my financial reach, I will order it to get some more inspiration.
cuyamaBut I think it unnecessarily creates work when a more realistic, less convoluted configuration with more overlap of elements (and a viable run-around) could be a lot more interesting and less tedious to operate in the long term
I am a fan of Byron's overlap technique (which I first noticed in his 1x6 foot N scale Alameda Belt Line plan in Model Railroad Planning in 2005) - if you look at the four layout plans below, they all have a longish (for a small shelf layout) runaround at the core, where the track that is part of the runaround also serve other purposes at the same time - mainline, siding, yard switching lead, industry switching lead.
Designing a small layout like the "scenic" shelf switchers we are discussing here is, IMHO, as challenging as designing a big one. True, you don´t have to consider a "big" picture, but you need to take care of a lot motre detail. There is not much room for mistakes. In a small layout, you have no area to compensate for a mistake. As the layout is also easily overlooked, you have to pay also a lot of attention to detail. Personally, I favor building small layouts for that very reason.
mcfunkeymonkey Just curious what people thought of it operationally. Is this a fun & realistic switching layout or one that unrealistically creates work for itself.
Just curious what people thought of it operationally. Is this a fun & realistic switching layout or one that unrealistically creates work for itself.
Well, I'm a big John Armstrong fan, but this was not one of his stronger efforts, IMHO. The turntable as a part of the runaround is an unnecessary gimmick, although it did probably selll some Atlas turntables when he did a similar plan originally for one of Atlas' trackplan books in 1958, which may be why the TT is included.
In 12 feet, there are many better choices, some have been shown in the thread, such as the modification of Jonathan Jones' layout or an adpatation of the trusty Switchman's Nightmare shelf switching layout.
There are some good ideas, such as the interchange yard at one end to act as visible staging. But I think it unnecessarily creates work when a more realistic, less convoluted configuration with more overlap of elements (and a viable run-around) could be a lot more interesting and less tedious to operate in the long term. Then again, some prefer clutter to realism, of course.
All these groovy plans make me want to start building 5 projects at once (as opposed to the 2-3 going on now!).
The small size would seem to be a plus: you don't have to think of the "big picture" of a large layout, until you realize this is more difficult since everything here IS the big picture!
It's definitely a fun challenge to create a little little empire.
While reading the earlier threads, John Armstrong's "Switching layout for shelf" popped into my mind. It's on page 139 of Track Planning for Realistic Operations, and since line drawings sometimes lie, I had to try it out on Anyrail:
I used Atlas 83 track with a Walthers Cornerstone 12 1/4" turntable. There's no dimentions in the book, but it lays out 18" x 12'. (Those are 6" squares). I think his indicates a grade, with the rear line elevated a bit. Armstrong says "Turntable serves to get end-loading and 'unload-from-the-side' cars into position for delivery - also completes longer runaround track."
Just curious what people thought of it operationally. Is this a fun & realistic switching layout or one that unrealistically creates work for itself. Also didn't know if the turntable was a consideration for Sir Madog.
Cheers!--Mark
M.C. Fujiwara
My YouTube Channel (How-to's, Layout progress videos)
Silicon Valley Free-moN
You are right, Stein.
When you connect different "stand-alones", you need to have at least one concept or theme behind, as the common denominator. That requires a certain amount of pre-planning, aside from deciding how and where to connect the sections/modules, so the tracks actually "meet".
I am still a member of a group of mrr´s building such type of a layout. The overall theme is a fictious narrow gauge line in the west of Germany. We meet a couple of times each year for operating sessions and a charity drive. Last time we were able to collect 25 k $ in donations for a children´s cancer ward in a hospital.
The group´s home page is www.sbeg.de
It is in German, but the pics show what I mean!