rayw46 I think this idea is called something like Individual design elements.
I think this idea is called something like Individual design elements.
The term is "Layout Design Element", or LDE. These are sections of the prototype (real-life) railroad to be replicated on the layout. The challenge for the original poster is that there are relatively few small sections of real-life railroads that will have the "Wow" factor he is seeking. In order to get that much appeal in that small a layout area, some significant editing and enhancing of real life may be needed. Not impossible, it's just unlikely that any real-life stretch of railroad will have what the orignal poster is seeking, since he has already found a number of fine small layouts to be lacking the "Wow" factor he is seeking.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Here is a smaller industry area in the Milwaukee area that could be worth modeling.
Map
Bird's eye view
Starting from lower left, the mainline heads up and to the right. There is a switch right past the bridge for the lead. The line then goes down, pretty steep hill. The building at upper right hides the end of the tail track, but not much further is a street.
Here are some views from inside the area.
The only place in there now is a paperboard plant, but it looks like either they did a lot more business, or other industry was in that 2-block area.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
WSOR 3801 Here is a smaller industry area in the Milwaukee area that could be worth modeling. Map Bird's eye view Starting from lower left, the mainline heads up and to the right. There is a switch right past the bridge for the lead. The line then goes down, pretty steep hill. The building at upper right hides the end of the tail track, but not much further is a street. Here are some views from inside the area. The only place in there now is a paperboard plant, but it looks like either they did a lot more business, or other industry was in that 2-block area.
Interesting place, I can see the potential for a module here. A couple of questions.
- was there a run around in the past?
- if not and if you need one, were would you like to have it?
- the building in the upper right (in the corner of the lead and W. Silver Spring Drive), did it have doors at the lead end of the building?
Thanks for psoting this!
marcimmekerInteresting place, I can see the potential for a module here. A couple of questions. - was there a run around in the past?
Just follow the track north of the Silver Spring Drive RR overpass - there is a runaround (or something that may have been a runaround) over there.
Here is an attempt at a module based on this location:
This one probably would be better in N scale - it would take just 8-10 feet in N scale.
Grin, Stein
It's not Milwaukee (and not very "scenic" either ), but I've often thought that this area in Detroit near Delray might be a good candidate for a switching layout of some sort. Maybe you could give it a MILW flavor. Anyway, FWIW:
Live Search
The Detroit Produce Terminal is in the upper right, lower left is an intermodal facility, and the branch curving off on the right is the Delray Connecting Railroad, which serves US Steel's Great Lakes Works and other industries. Lots of variety in car types here.
cuyama rayw46 I think this idea is called something like Individual design elements. The term is "Layout Design Element", or LDE. These are sections of the prototype (real-life) railroad to be replicated on the layout. The challenge for the original poster is that there are relatively few small sections of real-life railroads that will have the "Wow" factor he is seeking. In order to get that much appeal in that small a layout area, some significant editing and enhancing of real life may be needed. Not impossible, it's just unlikely that any real-life stretch of railroad will have what the orignal poster is seeking, since he has already found a number of fine small layouts to be lacking the "Wow" factor he is seeking.
I think the issue seems to be this, "Wow," thing. The, "Wow," is not going to come from the track plan, especially on a small switching laylout? A switching trackplan is a switching trackplan and that's about it. A lot of people like operating in a prototype manner and some of them have gone for the, "minimalist approach;" no scenery, cardboard structures, etc. That's all well and good, it's their railroad, they can do what they want. But are you going to say, "Wow," when you see such a layout? I doubt it. The, "Wow," comes when the modeler adds the super-detailed scenes; the beautifully modeled rock work, trees, structures, etc. That can be done on a small switching layout. I've even seen dioramas with just one piece of track running across it and said, "Wow." That's because the modeler took the track plan and modeled a representation of the real world, or maybe a world from their imagination, around it. So, if someone is looking for a trackplan that, "Wows," them, he or she will probably be out of luck. But when the modeler takes that trackplan, adds their imagination, time, talent and hard work to it, then, "WOW."
Ray
... Just because I have started to love drawing up new track plans - here is one more idea, taken from MR´s book "48 Top-notch Track Plans".
Did not know that I still had the book, bought more than a decade ago.
Here is the plan:
Ray,
whenever I draw up a track plan, I do it with a lot of imagination on how it would look like when built up. It is exactly what you say, it is the little details that create the atmosphere, the "Wow"-feeling. What´s the sense running a super-detailed loco thru a non-detailed scenery?
That is also the reason why I always add some details, like structures, roads etc. to make track plans - to kindle my imagination.
marcimmekerInteresting place, I can see the potential for a module here. A couple of questions. - was there a run around in the past? - if not and if you need one, were would you like to have it? - the building in the upper right (in the corner of the lead and W. Silver Spring Drive), did it have doors at the lead end of the building? Thanks for psoting this!
I don't think there was a runaround down in there. Looks like there was a runaround up on the main. Would just have to have things lined up before you go down in there. The middle track on the south end would have probably stayed clear, to enable shoving ahead to spot.
By zooming in closer, there is a roll-up door on the south end of the building next to the lead, and track peeking out. The switch seems to be long gone.
Stein's plan has it pretty good. If there is room, more curveature would be nice, but it seems to capture the flavor pretty good. Could use pretty sharp turns, 18-22" radius in HO scale.
Must have taken a while to switch the place out when all the tracks were in, and things were busy. I think the switchback lead holds 5-6 cars plus 1 engine.
Sir Madog ... Just because I have started to love drawing up new track plans - here is one more idea, taken from MR´s book "48 Top-notch Track Plans". Did not know that I still had the book, bought more than a decade ago.Here is the plan:
Mmm - this one doesn't have a lot of industry spots, and has quite a few switchbacks to get into the two uppermost industries. But it definitely has scenic possibilities - I like the junction look and the RR overpasses over the road - those really say "urban".
Smile, Stein
Sir Madog ... Just because I have started to love drawing up new track plans - here is one more idea, taken from MR´s book "48 Top-notch Track Plans". Did not know that I still had the book, bought more than a decade ago. Here is the plan:
I have that book too and it has several interesting plans (Art Curren's Break The Rules for instance).
I have looked upon this plan many times and each time a buzzer went of in my head suggesting something was wrong. Only this morning while once again reflecting upon it did I notice that Larry Forgard, the designer, probably intended to give the impression of a double track line. I always assumed this was a junction of a single track and double track line but it isn't. It is a junction of 2 single track lines where one line has a runaround and leads to serve industries which give the impression of double track. The key is the crossover at the right side, opposite the bottling plant. Oh well, better late than never.
If I would build this plan, I would change the orientation of that crossover at the right side. Either move it to the right so it is a junction of double and single track or move it to the left of the junction switch (making it a junction of 2 single track lines) so the runaround does not interfere with a train running from right to lower left.
I would also build it in N-scale, probably at least 6 feet long or 2 meters even to make sure I could use them as modules.
greetings,
So it´s just another plan on the path to my "ultimate" plan. I hope I do not run out of food for thought, as planning and collecting ideas is all I can do for the moment. I have to get rid of that ... tremor in my right hand first, before I can start any work...
... borrowed again, from you, Stein!
Those two highways passing over the track give a lot of "urban scenery" and depth to it ...
I'm really torn as to what looks/works better - a railroad overpass over a road somewhat perpendicular to the track, or a road overpass over the tracks. I really like the railroad bridge over the street approach, maybe because there are many around here. But the street bridging the railroad is a great way to disguise the end of the module and/or break it up so that the track lengths seem longer. I guess both are in order!
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
... just because a new month has started, here is another plan/idea... (We should make a contest out of this)
If you are going to simply copy others' track plans and post them, please at least give them credit. This is the Third Street Industrial plan by Bill Baumann from the November 1985 Model Railroader and the Kalmbach book 48 Top Notch Track Plans. The layout has a number of limtiations and challenges,as we discussed here the last time this came up.http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/139817/1558416.aspx
Wolfgang Dudler has built a versionhttp://www.westportterminal.de/thirdstreet.html
... sorry - I forgot the credits - yes, it is a track plan from Bill Baumann. I like the idea of the industrial line underpassing the main quite a lot as a scenic feature. I have not checked the operational challenges, yet.
Also, the grade is a little to steep for my test - I guess that may be one of the reasons why Wolfgang Dudler made it much longer than the original 10´.
Thanks, cuyama, for the links!
Over the last weeks, I have been playing around with a lot of ideas on how to come up with a simple, but also scenic design for a small shelf switching layout. The forum provided a vast number of contributions as food for thought, so did a lot of surfing the internet for small layout ideas. A lot what I had posted here was "borrowed" , either copied or adapted. Somehow all these ideas did not create this "wow - that´s what I want to build"-feeling in my stomach. So how to proceed from here?
I negiotated with SWMBO to get some extra space - if I make the layout not as deep as 2ft, say only 18", I can get a couple of feet extra in length, up to 11´ or even 12´ in total - plus a 3´ switching lead for staging, if it is detachable. Her desk can than go under the layout!
I am fascinated with Lance Mindheim´s work - his East Rail project is just fantastic. I like the simplicity of the design, yet complex and highly detailed in the execution. His East Rail gives me that wow-feeling!
As I cannot build an L-shaped layout, I took some "modeler´s license" to adapt some features of his East rail into a straight shape and "relocated" the whole thing to the Milwaukee area.
This is what it looks like:
Most of the buildings will have to be scratchbuilt, but that´s part of the challenge. I welcome any improvements!
Thanks for bearing with me!
Sir Madog Over the last weeks, I have been playing around with a lot of ideas on how to come up with a simple, but also scenic design for a small shelf switching layout. The forum provided a vast number of contributions as food for thought, so did a lot of surfing the internet for small layout ideas. A lot what I had posted here was "borrowed" , either copied or adapted. Somehow all these ideas did not create this "wow - that´s what I want to build"-feeling in my stomach. So how to proceed from here? I negiotated with SWMBO to get some extra space - if I make the layout not as deep as 2ft, say only 18", I can get a couple of feet extra in length, up to 11´ or even 12´ in total - plus a 3´ switching lead for staging, if it is detachable. Her desk can than go under the layout! I am fascinated with Lance Mindheim´s work - his East Rail project is just fantastic. I like the simplicity of the design, yet complex and highly detailed in the execution. His East Rail gives me that wow-feeling! This is what it looks like: Most of the buildings will have to be scratchbuilt, but that´s part of the challenge. I welcome any improvements!
Strictly personal opinion - the new design will be great fun to build. Things are spread out enough that you can truly capture the essence of the prototype with attention to detail.
But....will you be satisfied with efficient but boring (IMHO) operations for very long once the layout is built? The real railroads prefer track arrangements that are efficient. Routine is a good thing, because it means predictability in schedules for both the railroad and for customers.
In the model railroading world, there is an influential group that is very down on designing in intentional roadblocks to efficient switching in small layouts. Their points are that the prototype prefers efficiency, and does everything within monetary reason to get rid of roadblocks. And that we should be modeling that efficiency. A switching puzzle track arrangement epitomizes the wrong approach to this group.
Depending on your personality and desires, it may or may not be boring to operate a small layout prototype style. And don't get me wrong, a specific impediment to efficient switching can be become boring, too. A hurdle like a switchback that has to be used on nearly every move, or a runaround that only clears one car at a time may become just as old as all spurs stacked in the same direction as your suggested plan has.
Bottom line: the lack of a runaround and having all spurs face the same direction concerns me, but it might be just fine for you. If you are concerned about boring operations, the given track arrangement with attention paid to spur lengths could contain an Inglenook "game". If you have no worries in this area, enjoy building.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
FredW,
my first version of this plan had a switchback, which mad a run-around necessary. I gave up this concept for reasons of simplicity - was I wrong? Where would you put a run-around, without stacking up to much track again?
Help
I agree with Fred. If I remember my John Armstrong correctly, he suggested having all spurs in an area facing the same way except one. If you want a spur in the opposite direction from the rest, I think it could be fairly easily done at the Feed & Grain by moving the "main" down one trackspacing unit. You'd have to do some fiddling with the track downstream, or maybe put the main on an angle, which is not necessarily a bad thing. The runaround could be worked into the trackage northeast of the canal, maybe a crossover going from lower-left to upper right around the 9' - 10' gridline
Fred and O´Dave - I took up your recommendations and tried to incorporate them into my plan. This is what came out of it:
With the above changes to the original idea, operation seems to be more interesting. What I am not yet fond of, is the single track staging. I was thinking of building a 3 - 4 track traverser in order to have the option of running a "morning train" and an "afternoon" train, without taking loco or rolling stock from the rails. Unfortunately, there is a window on that end which needs to be opened now and then. So something detachable is a must. I guess I need to think it over...
While looking at the plan, some more changes come to mind. If I move the tracks west of the canal a little more to the left, I can make the canal a little wider und put a tug and a barge in there, plus some loading/unloading facility. How´s that?
... and here it is!
What do the experts say?
I'm far from an expert, but either one looks good to me. There seems to be a good balance of scenery and trackage, which is what gives me a "wow" too. The only things that jump out at me are:
A. Your grade crossing looks like it's going across the points of a turnout. You may want to nudge the road either way to make the crossing easier to model.
B. You may want to think about how the Feed & Grain is going to do its work, either with a single loading spout/unloading pit or multiples.
If the elevator has only one loading spout/unloading pit, then it should be located in the middle of the spur, with the total spur length being long enough for 2X the number of cars you expect to handle at the facility. This is because a cut of empty cars would be spotted with the first car under the spout, and the rest of the empties "upstream" of it. As the cars are loaded, some kind of motive device (bulldozer, trackmobile, cable & winch) will index the next car under the spout, with the loaded cars moving "downstream". So if you want to load 3x40' boxcars here, then the spur track needs to be at least 36" long for this kind of operation.
I think you can pull this off by mirroring the elevator, and extending the spur underneath the overpass and into your staging area. It might interfere with your traverser idea, though. Maybe it could coexist with a sector plate better.
If you have multiple spouts/pits, then the cars can be loaded/unloaded without indexing and there's no issue. But I think that kind of operation is found generally at larger facilities. Your call.
O´Dave,
you are right with the level crossing - I will move it a little when building the layout. Thanks also for the info on the grain elevator - I cannot get info like this on this side of the big lake. Hopping by and taking a look at real life takes a minimum of 9 hrs flight, not to mention the cash involved.
odavef the elevator has only one loading spout/unloading pit, then it should be located in the middle of the spur, with the total spur length being long enough for 2X the number of cars you expect to handle at the facility. This is because a cut of empty cars would be spotted with the first car under the spout, and the rest of the empties "upstream" of it. As the cars are loaded, some kind of motive device (bulldozer, trackmobile, cable & winch) will index the next car under the spout, with the loaded cars moving "downstream". So if you want to load 3x40' boxcars here, then the spur track needs to be at least 36" long for this kind of operation.
well, if he wants to be really tight about space, loading three cars from a single loading spout can be done with room for just five cars - the position under the spout can hold the first empty car when empties are spotted and the last loaded car when they all have been loaded.
Ulrich - I like those plans. These are yours, and they look good.
To get a longer track for the elevator - could you extend the runaround on the left end, and let the track to the elevator branch out from inside the runaround - ie just swap the position of the two leftmost turnouts ? Might help with not having the road cross at the points as well.
I like this one a lot better - but that's me. I find it much more interesting oeprationally without sacrificing the scenic possibilities you had before.
As far as the removable staging is concerned, you could use 4-5 cassettes as a manual replacement for the desired traverser. Have each cassette with a train loaded sit on a shelf, along with a few empty cassettes. When a particular train is wanted, simply attach the desired cassette to the staging point. Use an empty cassette to remove cars or a train from the layout. Build a shelf above the layout to provide layout lighting, dust protection, and a place to store the cassettes that are not in immediate use.
Which is exactly how I plan to have some staging. My cassette will fit in the 31" space between the layout and the door (in closed position). The door will have a hangar to support the far end of the cassette, and the layout will support the near end. There are various examples of using cassette staging at http://www.carendt.com/.
yours in small layouts
steinjr To get a longer track for the elevator - could you extend the runaround on the left end, and let the track to the elevator branch out from inside the runaround - ie just swap the position of the two leftmost turnouts ? Might help with not having the road cross at the points as well.
Or just use a double slip and do something along these lines ? :
One potential operating challenge is the lack of an industrial support track or two on the layout - where you can have a little "work space" to stash inbound and/or outbound cars while you swap them around.
But that can be simulated by first picking up outbounds and pushing them under the bridge to a "siding" (ie a cassette) a little down that way, before swapping cassettes, and returning with new cars to spot at the industries.
Edit: actually - you do have room to stash about four-five 40' cars temporary on the curved track past the top of the water's edge, about four 40' cars on the mainline at the bottom left, and four-five cars in the runarounds in the center of the layout - enough space to temporarily stash cars while working:
With 3 feet of staging cassettes you won't have much more than 6, maybe 7 cars in a cassette anyways.
Industry sizes, harbor etc doesn't look half bad. I have used 4" wide roads and buildings that are a multiple of 4" (e.g. Walther's modulars come in 2" and 4" sections). Barge is a copy of mine, which is about 4"x12". RR freight cars are 40' cars. Turnouts Peco code 75.
Smile,Stein
Hi Stein,
you are up early this morning again - hope, you are ok?
I like the changes you made to the plan, you are definetively an expert! I guess we have a good basis for further thoughts now. Will post the amendments here during the day...
Sir Madog Hi Stein,you are up early this morning again - hope, you are ok?
Yeah - just a summer morning in southern Norway - sun rises way early (even with the clock turned an hour forward) - about an hour earlier than in Hamburg, and about an hour and a half earlier than in e.g. Minneapolis, and that starts a lot of birds singing right outside our bedroom window.
Somehow, I figured that my neighbors wouldn't really appreciate it I got a shotgun and started blowing away little singing birds in the wee hours :-)
Besides - better enjoy it - in another couple of weeks the days start growing shorter again.
Hals und beinbruch - as long as you don't take it too literally
... that little folk wakes me up also quite early - usually around 4 o´clock. My wife feeds them in winter, but I´d rather - boom!