I was hoping for a 2.5% grade but looks like it will be 3% to 3.25% I did a ruff measuring looks like I will only have around 115" to make the 3.5 climb.
Reson I need that height is for a cross over. I factor in the 1/2 plywood that will support the upper level of track. Do I need to factor the road bed and rails as well or will they nullafi (spell check could not help with that one!) each other.
What I want to pull will be athearn blue box kite cars, mainly 2 bay hoppers and a few box cars for supplys to the miners. All will have there bosster cleaned and good chances PK 2 wheels. Will be NMRA weight if not a little lighter. Goal is a 15 car to 20 car drag.
Pulling power for steam
BLI M1a and pulls very well and no traction tires
BLI Hudson and I can add traction tires
BLI Class J and it has traction tires and can pull the bricks out of the wall. But really don't want to use it for mining. I fell bad when it drags freight.
Diesel power will be Protos and Blue Box Athearn's. Best pullers are a twecked C44-9W War Bonnet and a Athearn B40-8 with a lot of weight added.
This section will start out DC but will be up grade latter to DCC. I can go around 22" to 24" raidus on the turns. I am all so HO scale
One of the reson I post the many time asked before question I look at all the PIC posted of bench work. There seems to be many out there that go over a ideal 2% grade.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Ken--
First of all, is your upper-level crossover going to be a bridge? If so, you can probably eliminate the 1/2" plywood thickness from your upper roadbed for the crossover and lower the grade accordingly. A truss bridge will carry your upper track over your lower with little clearance problems.
A 3.5% grade, if it is not long and constant wouldn't be above prototype practice, there is a short section of 3.55% grade on the now dormant ex-Rio Grande Tennessee Pass line.
I'm not really clear, is this grade a mainline or a branchline to service an industry? If it's a mainline grade, I'd think it would be far too steep for your Hudson, unless you plan on running only a 2-4 car 'pike-size' passenger. I should think that your M1 and J could pull a respectable cut of cars (about half of what you'd expect on level track).
What I'd suggest is taking another look and seeing if you could achieve the same level on a 2.4% grade, which gains elevation well, but doesn't really limit the number of cars you can haul behind our steamers that much. And remember, the tighter the curve radius on your grade, the less your steamers can haul.
Good luck.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
My Athearn GP's can only pull about 15 cars up a 2.5% grade before the wheels start slipping. Most of my cars have P2K wheel sets. My Bach Dash 8 can do about 20 cars. It's the speeding up when they go down the grade that bugs me.
Steam with traction tires would probably do better.
Tom, if you had not seen this PIC before (it is posted all over the places) here is what I hope to do. I guess it is a brach line to get to the mining company. The cross over would have been a tunnel but could be a bridge.
If you can (and I am sure you can) I was hopping to make line that went around the hill that was 3" above the lower level so it would be a loop. Then up again to the mining company where the turn back is.
Here is where I am at.
Rail is laied on the lower main line and is 26.5 radius turn.
I have all so thought about running the grade line on the inside of the 2nd level track and does not go over the cross over. That would give me more room to lower the grade.
My sort of goal is to be able to run two trains on two driffrent brach lines at the same time. 1 on call it level B and one on C, A being the main line that is down.
On other steam power I have a BLI Heavy Mike that I am sure won't make it up the grade with more than 5 cars Max. 2 GS-4 Bachmanns I fidel with that might drag 5 to 7 cars and then the Genesis Big Boy, if I get the tender not drag like a brick it might pull it self up the grade. It is the biggest POS I have bought $ for $ to date.
With some $ luck I will have a PC Big Boy that will pull up a Sherman hill.
Confussed again Cuda Ken but I am feeling much better.
If the grade is needed to get clearance for the crossing, I absolutely agree to cut down on the thickness under the track there. And, for the short distance of a crossing, you don't need so much finger room, since you can reach in from the sides. Do whatever you can to keep the grade down and you'll be happier, I think.
It also looks like you could maybe break off on the left side a little sooner, and maybe parallel the other track while you climb for a foot or two. It might make a big difference.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Silly question but why don't you put the grade on the OUTSIDE and move the place where the "crossover" is back about 3-4 feet. Color the Black line red and the red line black from the switch to the Crossover, then don't cross, put them on their original routes.
Grade problem solved.
Why would you carry boxcars to the mine, there's no place to set them out to be loaded or unloaded. Nor is there anyplace to put a 10-15 car train of empty hoppers for it to be loaded for that matter. If you are doing flood loading on the loop, your problem is solved because steam engines didn't handle those type of trains, they were invented post-steam.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Well for what its worth Ken, heres my findings. I have a grade that rises 3'3/4" over 12 feet, so its about 3%.
My initial fears were, 1, that it would look like something from an amusement park and, 2, it would be an operational pain.
As its turned out, its neither the 2.
I can run a 26 car train of intermodels and box cars with no noticable drop in speed over it. This though is hauled by 2 P2K SD50's that are the heaviest units i have. If i run the same train with say 2 Atlas Dash 9's, they slip slightly but make it. Most of the time i do run consists, my intermodel at the moment has the 2 SD50's and a Genesis SD45 and i reckon i could add another 10 cars to it before it had problems, infact i reckon it *may* straight line itself before it slipped to a stand! Visualy, this grade looks fine, much to my relief.
I guess it all depends on the power you use at the end of the day.
Dont forget though to factor in the transition from level to grade in your measurments. thats another 18" each end of the grade!
The grade itself is on the double track on the right of this picture, it goes under and beyond the small truss in the distance for about another 3 feet.
The top of it is just out of shot nearest you and goes over the big truss bridge you can see on my layout thread. In actual fact the single line meets this double track just around the curve behind the camera. Hope that helps abit, let me know if need another picture from a differant angle.
Ken,
Ever think of modeling a cog train?
cudaken wrote: Tom, if you had not seen this PIC before (it is posted all over the places) here is what I hope to do. I guess it is a brach line to get to the mining company. The cross over would have been a tunnel but could be a bridge. If you can (and I am sure you can) I was hopping to make line that went around the hill that was 3" above the lower level so it would be a loop. Then up again to the mining company where the turn back is. Here is where I am at. Rail is laied on the lower main line and is 26.5 radius turn. I have all so thought about running the grade line on the inside of the 2nd level track and does not go over the cross over. That would give me more room to lower the grade. My sort of goal is to be able to run two trains on two driffrent brach lines at the same time. 1 on call it level B and one on C, A being the main line that is down. On other steam power I have a BLI Heavy Mike that I am sure won't make it up the grade with more than 5 cars Max. 2 GS-4 Bachmanns I fidel with that might drag 5 to 7 cars and then the Genesis Big Boy, if I get the tender not drag like a brick it might pull it self up the grade. It is the biggest POS I have bought $ for $ to date. With some $ luck I will have a PC Big Boy that will pull up a Sherman hill. Confussed again Cuda Ken but I am feeling much better.
My only problem with your plan is that each subsequent loop back on the higher level means a tighter radius, and I don't see any actual room for spur tracks at the mine--and this is assuming that the higher level is primarily meant to service a mine. And if you're planning on putting a staging yard on the lower level, how are you going to cross those tracks with the 'high-line'? The only way I can see it is a curved series of viaducts, and that might preclude being able to put in enough scenery to actually SUPPORT a mine on the higher level.
I kind of think you have two choices here--either a staging yard on the lower level and just a spur to a mine on a higher level, or eliminate the staging yard all together and go with your original idea--a 'high' line loop (without the turnbacks) with spur tracks for the mine.
At least that's the way I see it.
I think you could do it with a 3% grade, at least from what I see in the photo. And you could do the 3% with WS Foam Risers, which would ensure a very steady grade.
Just my thoughts.
" Dont forget though to factor in the transition from level to grade in your measurments. thats another 18" each end of the grade!"
Hum, that statment sent chills up my spine! Ken from K-10 said I only need a car lenght before the train starts up the grade?
I had thought of cutting some foam out to help the cross over. Reason I have not I am not sure how to do it and get the dip smooth so I have no problems. I might be able to K-10 let me use there's for a few hours but how would I messure and contol the depth and grade of the need cut?
I thought about making the section of track that would have been the A line that is crossed over straight. But I need to have it to help the radius larger back to the main bench.
Other idea is dump the cross over idea. Only reason I wanted the cross over was so the lower A line could go into a tunnel and out to the main bench. What I may do is start the grade where the turn out is now, use the foam grade thingie and follow the A line and have both go into the moutain but B would have its on Rat Hole and higher than the A line. It would need a tighter radius turn but at a lower grade.
On the upper level where the mine will be, I see a few places for spurs. Well I think I do? As far as hidden stagging, far from beining important to me. There will be shelfs under the left side of the bench. Heck I am storing cars in beer boxes now.
I will do a little fiddeling on paper and post some ideas. Any one wants to share some ideas on paper feel free.
Boy the 8' X 5' section sure seems small now.
cudaken wrote: I had thought of cutting some foam out to help the cross over. Reason I have not I am not sure how to do it and get the dip smooth so I have no problems. I might be able to K-10 let me use there's for a few hours but how would I messure and contol the depth and grade of the need cut?
I think rather than trying to make the cut perfect, I would cut a section out to a uniform depth, with a router, then create a grade in that slot with drywall mud or something similar.