I was reading the powered frog and unpowered frog post and read this "DCC presents a problem with the insulfrog turnout made by Peco."So I now have a few Questions about the Peco Switches
1. This made me wonder some thing. I was noticing that 5 or 6 of my cars would spark when going through my switches? I am using Peco Insulfrogs and I am wondering what can I do to fix this?2. My Athearn Dash 9 will lose power if I am running at a low speed through switches. What causes this?3. Some of my cars will derail when going through switches. They derail right at the insulated plastic. What is causing my derailments?ThanksBaker
First, the sparks. They are probably caused by the wider than true scale metal wheels leaving the frog and making contact with both closure rails. Peco is notorious for not building a finer, truly DCC-safe insulfrog. What most of us do is get clear nail polish and paint a thin covering immediately around the black plastic spacer at the end of the frog. Paint the rail surfaces as if you wanted the fat wheels to ride on the non-insulating nail polish until the wheels can't possible reach the other rail...about 5/16". So, to get back to the sparks, you are getting momentary shorting, but of short enough duration that it doesn't actually stop anything. Either that, or you have some contaminants on either your wheels, the rails, or both such that it burns at some points...although I doubt it.
The loss of power is caused by either dirty track, dirty wheels, dirty pickups, or the frogs are insulated and the space between the pickups on the loco is too short to bridge to each side of the frog to get power. If the frog is isolated (dead), then while the first set of pickups crosses the dead zone, the engine must have at least one rearward set of pickups still running on live track firmly enough that power continuously gets to the motor/decoder.
One other possibility is that the problem occurs even earlier..due to the point rails not getting power from the stock rails. If the points don't make good contact (bent, dirt) with the inside of the stock rails, they will not provide power up their lengths toward the dead frog...now you have many times the length between the pickups that is dead. You may have to jump wires from the same-side stock rails to the same-side point rails to assure good feed. If your points are hinged directly to the frogs with metal, now you have powered frogs, not the insulated ones you need for DCC.
Complicated, eh?
As for the derailments, this could be caused by wheels not in gauge, by flashing in the plastic liner of the frog, by a frog that is out of gauge, by guard rails that are either too far away from the outer stock rails, or they are actually so close that they pinch the flanges on these cars and force them up and out of the frog area. Also, if the flanges, themselves, are too high in profile, they may cause the cars to buck up and out of the plastic bottom liner of the frog.
Take a truck off a car that runs well, and use your index finger to run it back and forth. Does it buck or catch, or is it smooth? Now take a truck off the offending cars and do the same. Any difference? Shine a lot of light on that area, use a magnifier, and have a close look as you repeat. You will probably see the problem.
The derailments may be at the frog, but actually caused by a mis-alignment with the next section of track. This may happen because you're linking the Peco rails to Atlas flex-track. The rail shapes are slightly different, so the rail joiners fit snugly on one rail and loosely on the other. I think the Peco rails are smaller, so the joiners which come with the turnouts will not fit over the Atlas rails. The normal fix is to use Atlas joiners, but they will be loose on the Peco rails.
I've got one of these problem spots right now. I tried soldering, but now I've got a lump inside the rails where wheels occasionally ride up and over. I'll try something else tonight.
I've got the same problem with shorting on Pecos, but I'm using electrofrogs. These 3-way Pecos were replacements for some ancient brass Shinoharas, and I had relays wired in parallel to supply power to the sidings, since the old Shinoharas weren't doing a very reliable job of power routing. When I put in the Pecos, I found I had to disconnect the power routing, because that's where the shorting was coming from at that tight frog point.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Welcome to the world of Peco turnouts. I have one of them, a large radius, that has just about made me pull what little hair I have left completely out. Selector has already given you every conceivable cause for your problem that I can think of. I'll just add this picture that may be of some help.
The area to apply the clear nail polish that he's referring to is both number 1 and 2 in the photo and for about the length of the red area I've marked. Do it to both rails, on their tops. It'll help to let one coat dry and then apply another.
Some people go so far as to apply super glue to the rails, getting it down where the rails sit on the ties, and then make two cuts, being sure to cut the rails only and not the plastic ties etc. below them. The glue is to reinforce the rail so that, when cut, that small section will stay in place. They then take a small piece of styrene and insert it into the gap and shape it with a single edge razor blade or hobby knife to conform to the shape of the rails.
This creates that little bit of extra 'dead' zone (electrically isolates it) so that you won't get a short from those fat wheels. 99% of the time it is only one of my loco's that shorts when passing over my less than perfect Peco turnout. Many people go their entire lives and never have trouble with them at all.
I hope this helps.
JaRRell
All I have to say about problems with Peco Insulfrog turnouts and DCC is, we have close to 50 Peco Insulfrog code 100 turnouts on our HO scale club layout and we have never had the slightest problem with any of them. We also have a lot of Atlas turnouts on the club layout, and they, too, have been problem free as far as anything shorting out on them, so I can't imagine where the problem is originating. I don't think Peco has made any significant changes to the design of their turnouts over the years until they introduced the code 83 line, which do seem to be different.
I use Peco Insulfrog code 83 turnouts on my home layout and have never had the slightest problem with any of them, so far. Neither have I ever had an electrical problem with the new Atlas or Walthers/Shinohara code 83 turnouts.
I'm relieved to know that the problem I have with a particular Peco turnout is in my imagination. Perhaps we should get in touch with the fellas over on wiringfordcc.com and let them know there is no problem also..
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm
I don't contend that all Pecos have the problem, but there are enough of them, evidently, that modelers have come up with various ways to correct it, including gaping the rails, filing the inner parts of the rails, applying Scotch tape to the area and coating the tops at the frog area with clear fingernail polish.
The problem, I suppose, isn't that wide spread or the company would've been out of business long ago. But when you have a 'bad' one, it's a bad one.
Code 100 track user
J.B:
YOU are having multiple problems with multiple pieces of equipment. Are you also using an assortment of turnouts?
'Shorting' and an 'open circuit' are total opposites, but ethey exhibit the same symptom - loss of power.
(1) SPARKING: first thing is to check wheel gauge for spacing. Second is to make sure the wheels and track are clean. Third is to run equipment very slooowly to determine what is shorting. Kadee's wheel replacements might be an easy cure. They have an insulated axle.
(2) Athearn Dash 9's have all wheel pickup therefor I suspect Shorting. Again, check wheel gauge, although I think it more probable the switch is the problem. Dah 9's have a long wheelbase and a more generous curve is the best answer. Replacement is the simpest answer.
(3) DERAILMENTS through switches are most often caused by wheel bounce. (1) check wheel gauge (2) add weight to NMRA specs. (3) replace trucks with Kato - in that order.
ALL THREE OF YOUR PROBLEMS could be caused by mismatched equipment to your switches.That woult be the ultimate, and most expensive solution - but a common one. On my 1'st layout my switches were too tight for the equipment I bought, so either the equipment or switches had to go. Could be yours, too.
Answer: NMRA track gage for starters.