Long retaining wall ?

[jbinkley60]

I am considering a long retaining wall for my layout.  It will be about 3-4" high and up to 6 feet long.  It can be brick or concrete.  I am considering making my own but looking for ideas on construction materials.  One option is styrene for concrete.  I am also willing to cast it with plaster but don't have any molds.  In looking on Walther's website I see JV Materials makes sheets of brick 4 3/4" high by 8 1/2" long.  The pictures are B&W and don't show much.  I am hoping not to paint this much brick by hand.  I also see that Plastruct has a patterned red brick sheet but no deminsions are given.  Has anyone made a retaining wall this long and if so, how did you do it ?

 

[bogp40]

I am considering a long retaining wall for my layout.  It will be about 3-4" high and up to 6 feet long.  It can be brick or concrete.  I am considering making my own but looking for ideas on construction materials.  One option is styrene for concrete.  I am also willing to cast it with plaster but don't have any molds.  In looking on Walther's website I see JV Materials makes sheets of brick 4 3/4" high by 8 1/2" long.  The pictures are B&W and don't show much.  I am hoping not to paint this much brick by hand.  I also see that Plastruct has a patterned red brick sheet but no deminsions are given.  Has anyone made a retaining wall this long and if so, how did you do it ?

Using individual castings will give the best look. This would also allow for slight curves if needed and  staggering of the heights for any elevation changes. There are many molds available. I like to use ones that have a stone wall section and pilaster. These can run many feet and still look prototypical. They can be glued to wood or foam for placement.

[ARTHILL]

I have carved several walls directing into premixed lightweight dry wall seam cement. I put about 1/8" coat on top of scenery(plaster or foam). After about 2 hours you can carve it with a knife. It will stay carvable for a couple of days. I then paint it with artist's accrylics.

[jxtrrx]

Using individual castings will give the best look. This would also allow for slight curves if needed and  staggering of the heights for any elevation changes. There are many molds available. I like to use ones that have a stone wall section and pilaster. These can run many feet and still look prototypical. They can be glued to wood or foam for placement.

BogP40,

Who makes the retaining wall brick or wood molds?  I can find lots of rock molds, but no others.

Thanks!

[MisterBeasley]

This is a short shot of a wall which is about 3 feet long.  It's made from coffee stirrers, glued to a styrene strip as a base.  I used a white wood stain mixed with a bit of India Ink for color.  The artwork is a decal I made from a downloaded thumbnail picture, printed on decal paper on my inkjet computer.

This one is double-sided, as the track descends into the tunnel with the same elevation on either side.  I used a rock mold from Dave Frary at www.mrscenery.com for the castings.  The specific mold is "cut stone wall," but he has other choices, too.

To finish the castings, I first sprayed them with cheap gray primer from Lowe's.  Then I brushed on a fairly dark India Ink wash until I got the detail level I wanted.  The ink wash really highlights this particular mold (made with Hydrocal) and takes very little time to do.  The mold is about 3 by 8 inches.

[topcopdoc]

I built long walls for my HO layout  by carving 1" thick pink foam board. I made some in natual rock and others in cut block form. It is pretty easy to carve anything you want in foam. I made tunnels and stone arch bridges as well. I paint a base coat on them and then highlight certain individual rocks or blocks with another color and finally finish off the cracks between with a light color wash the same way you would with brick mortar.

Doc  

[Dave-the-Train]

For concrete you might like to look here...

http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/914154/ShowPost.aspx

Retaining walls... this could get long so you might want to take another look at it tomorrow when I've had time to add to it.

In H0 3" =21' and 4" = 28'... which means quite deep cuts or embankments.  This is not a problem.  the wall just needs to be heavy enough.

RR retaining walls come in several construction methods...

1. timber piling
2. timber cribbing
3. masonry
4. dressed stone
5. undressed stone
6. concrete blocks
7. concrete sections
8. poured concrete - backfilled
9. concrete cribbing
10. concrete piling
11. steel piling
12. steel piling backed by concrete
13. steel wire cages full of stone.  (This seems to be the latest variation on cribbing)
14. sandbags (temporary - for a few years)
15. H steel girders driven vertically with beams/ties slotted horizontally between
16. Old rail driven vertically with rail/beams/ties horizontally behind
17. I'll probably think of some more later.

Very long walls may be a combination of a number of the above.  this applies especially where there have been repairs or modernisations.

Piling is almost always vertical.  The rest may be vertical or may have a batter... ie they slope away from the void towards the top.  An external batter does not mean that the inside face (gainst the erth) is sloped.

Most retaining walls are cantilevers... they are like a fence... the fencepost in the ground holds the fence gainst horizontal pressures while the fence panels are the cantilever... the difference is that the wall doesn't have posts but is continuous below ground.

Some retaining walls  are L shaped with the foot of the L behind the vertical body of the wall held down by the weight of back-filled earth.

The profile also varies...

1. a plain straight or curved line... this is relatively rare
2. a buttressed straight or curved line... this is much more common
3. most long walls are in clear sections even when not buttressed
4. walls may be capped or not almost regardless of how they are built
5. where the wall gets taller walls may have a stepped top or a sloping top... this doesn't seem to depend on method except that cribbing is almost always stepped
6. in the UK any long wall with a track at the base will usually have refuges built into it... like small arched doorways going nowhere - big enough for at least two people
7. in the UK any long wall with a track at the top will have refuges extended onto or beyond the top of the wall - these are usually like the locations for fire barrels on a lot of US trestles
8. depending on the height/depth of the wall areas may be built out to support things like battery boxes for signalling or cut in to make space for them. --- signals themselves are frequently bracketed off the retaining walls or a signal bridge is sprung between two retaining walls
9. Even quite short walls are sometimes not built as a single wall but as two or more walls with a step between each wall
10. pairs of facing walls sometimes have masonry or steel arches between them above the structure gauge... like a tunnel with big holes in the roof.

Very long walls may be a combination of one or two of the above.  Single walls often become stepped systems where the height/depth of the wall increases.

Water has a big role in the appearance of retaining walls.

1. retaining walls can act as dams to both surface and ground water.  If this isn't dispersed the wall can be pushed over... surprisingly walls often bulge out at the foot and collapse landslip style.
2. many walls have 2" - 3" pipes built into them to allow water to drain out... depending on water flow and times of year these may have water, water stain or green growth below them.  Some walls just have a half brick missing at intervals.  Some have bigger pipes (but thes usually mean some sort of gulley is needed at the foot of the wall).
3. water may flow down the wall from the top, washed out joints or cracks leaving traces...
4. Most walls will have some sort of drainage to let water though at or near the foot of the wall
5. Some walls (even short ones) have several layers of drains through them.
6. Where there is a lot of water an open drain/gully is often provided at the foot of the wall.
7. Similarly a covered drain with occasional pits (covered with metal grills or thick planks) can be provided
8. Stepped retaining walls may have either a concrete or an earth step surface.  Either may have a gully built into it.  A concrete step may be designed to shed water over the lower face like a waterfall
9. Occasionally there is a gully behind the top of a retaining wall.  this may drain to the end or ends of the wall, away from it or down it at specific points.  The  last is sometimes done with large bore pipes.
10. Drainage has to go somewhere.  This may be a natural outflow or pumped.  Sometimes a sump is provided.

Things like signalling cables have to go somewhere

1. old style pole line wires can be supported from the sides of walls that are tall enough on metal brackets.  Sometimes these carry wood arms other times the pots sit straight on the bracket
2. Where clearances are tight the pole line run may switch to vertical spacing instead of the usual horizontal using individula pots bracketed close to the wall.
3. Multi core cables are run on metal brackets or in wooden troughs along the face of the wall
4. power cables are also run as 3
5. Various pipes get run along the walls
6. Where equipment like signals or battery boxes are placed on top of walls or bracketed from them there will be a means of access.  This may be a pathway along the wall top or just behind it plus a fixed steel ladder down or a fix steel ladder up from the side of the track.

A long retaining wall can be very boring or a work of art... sometimes covered in art/graffitti.

As with the concrete paint thread I mention there are all sorts of details you can add to any retaining wall.  One of the first things is cracks and the efforts of engineers to monitor and control them.

Then there's ground anchors... the engineers bore through the wall and (by various means) insert an anchor into the retained ground.  this shows as a big plate on the wall face with an 1 1/2" OR 2" threaded end and nut sticking out of the middle.  These are sometimes ribbed in a star pattern.  Older ones are often round.

Almost all wals get repairs in them from time to time.  this shows as new material and sometimes as different construction.  There is a short length of retaining wall near Crewe in which i have counted at least a dozen different patches of different coloured brick plus different coloured re-pointing.

You might like to check out some of the previous threads on weathering brickwork.

[tomikawaTT]

In the November MRR, page 40, Andy Sperandeo mentioned a John Allen method from yesteryear - carved linoleum.

I recall having done some linoleum carving to create stone walls back when I was still modeling the NYC.  The most useful tools were V and U gouges, and the surface could be textured with a ball peen hammer.

Now that the idea is back in my mind, I'll probably use it to model the stonework I need.  Commercial products just don't look right for my prototypes.

Chuck (modeling stone-faced fills and embankments in central Japan in 1964)

[Anonymous]

Retaining walls... this could get long so you might want to take another look at it tomorrow when I've had time to add to it.

Hey Dave, I have warned you before.  You are going to wear your fingers down to short stubs with all that typing mate!!!  What will you do once you have only stub fingers left?

 

[Dave-the-Train]

The question has occured to me "Why retaining walls"?

Obviously for modellers the answers are because they can look good, hide the edge of the modelled area and we like them... among other things.

With real RR they are relatively expensive structures.  Probably close to tunnels in first cost and maintenance.

So then I tought about where they are used.

1. above RR track... to hold up ground and structures on it.
2. below RR track... to hold up the right of way.
3. sometimes a step is formed and both occur.

All very obvious... but why a retaining wall?

There appear to be six reasons for them.  (That I can think of so far... please add your own...)

1. because real estate is expensive so that purchasing the land to form a conventional fill or cut would be expensive.  this occurs mainly in cities.
2. because land is not available for track widening ... the RR is already located and property has been developed around it.  The only way to get more space for track is to switch from having a fill or cut to levelling the required space and using a retaining wall.
3. because land is not available for grade seperation... the RR is already located and property has been developed around it.  The only way to seperate the grade is to go straight up or down between retaining walls.  This may be combined with numbers of bridges.
4. because the angle of repose (the angle at which soil/rock refrains from sliding down hill) is too shallow, too expensive or not practical.  This varies from loose sand that is useless for cuts or fills via a cut or fill that might be shallow or low but the necessary slope of the banks would take too much land (and possibly still be unreliable) to the geology being solid but too vertical... it just wouldn't be practical to cut out or fill slopes along a mountain side... however solid and free from slip the rock may be.  (Of course where possible RR leave the natural rock standing but where there is a risk of it toppling a wall may be inserted to restrain it).It isn't unusual to find that a mountain that has stood around for a few millenia suddenly becomes ready to flake great chunks when someone goes and cuts a slice out of the side of it or through it. It's a bit like a heap of coal... it may have settled but take a shovel full out and a few big chunks and a lot of small stuff will change position.  You can add to that the effect of the vibrations of passing trains.
5. because either the ground is unstable due to water conditions already or putting the RR through changes the water table and causes instability.  This usually effects cuts and sometimes steps rather than embankments.  The introduction of the RR can break the water table causing a number of springs to appear where previously there was nothing apparent  A cut in this situation might just keep slipping out if drainage can't cope with the situation.
6. A similar problem arises in rocks like chalk which will not normally hold water but sheer off when water passing through freezes and expands.  At one location I worked any combination of rain followed by frost brought out "Chalk Fall" watches and "Slow Orders".  The cuts actually had rock fall shelters like bomb shelters built into them to keep the watchmen safe.  Even so i would not have wanted to be in one when a few hundred tons of chalk slipped.  Similar problems can occur with some schists.  In both Scotland and parts of the USA signalling systems were designed to be tripped back to danger by rock falls breaking or straining protecting/detecting cables.

All these things will contribute to the use of  retaining walls and input into both how the wall is built (which is also era dependent) and what bthe whole scene looks like.

I hope that this is useful.

Incidentally... where the retaining wall is holding land up there may be restrictions on placing loads (like buildings) on it/the land held up... so there may be a parking lot immediately at the top of a wall rather than a building right up to the edge.

While the wall may be owned by and the responsibility of the RR it may also form its boundary... so the top may be formed into a wall or there may be a fence along the top.  there may also be a fence simply to stop livestock falling over.

[Dave-the-Train]

Retaining walls... this could get long so you might want to take another look at it tomorrow when I've had time to add to it.

Hey Dave, I have warned you before.  You are going to wear your fingers down to short stubs with all that typing mate!!!  What will you do once you have only stub fingers left?

I've been thinking about the above post off and on all day and didn't notice this at first.

The answer is simple... I'll stop getting told off for scratching my nose

[jbinkley60]

After searching further, I found the City Classics Modular Concrete Retaining Wall.  Each section is just over 8.5" long and two sections list for $9.98 on Walthers website. 

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/195-601

this is very close to what I was looking for.  I'll take some more measurements before I head in this direction.  They are plastic and not cast from ceramic or plaster.  For concrete this should be fine but I suspect a casting would look more realistic.

 

[Dave-the-Train]

After searching further, I found the City Classics Modular Concrete Retaining Wall.  Each section is just over 8.5" long and two sections list for $9.98 on Walthers website. 

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/195-601

this is very close to what I was looking for.  I'll take some more measurements before I head in this direction.  They are plastic and not cast from ceramic or plaster.  For concrete this should be fine but I suspect a casting would look more realistic.

 

If you get one to try you might see how an exterior wall paint (Sandtex in the UK) looks on it... try some on the insde face first. It would add texture as well as base colour.  If you want to be fussy you might then rub off the texture in all the cement lines to differentiate the different material.

[E-L man tom]

MisterBeasley,

What brand decal paper is that? I have some Walthers decal paper that I am considering using in my inkjet printer but I am afraid I will ruin my printer.

[Anonymous]

I would first build it from a 1 x 4 board and paint it to appear as a concrete wall.  Later, if I found something that I couldn't resist I might buy a comercial product and replace it.  If you wanted a uniform masonry appearance, then I would find a brick pattern and print it on a color printer.  Then I would cut it out and affix it to the board.  It would be an easy thing to cover over your board later with a comercial product if you find something you got to have.  Good Luck.

[MisterBeasley]

What brand decal paper is that? I have some Walthers decal paper that I am considering using in my inkjet printer but I am afraid I will ruin my printer.

It's not a name-brand paper, just something I found at an LHS.  It's designed for inkjet printers.  You won't hurt the printer with it.  The only trick is that you really need something like Microscale's Liquid Decal Film to coat the inkjet decal, or it will just disintegrate when it hits the water.

I've done other decals on a nice, smooth metal surface, and they came out very clean.  This old, worn-out look fits the wood fence very nicely.  The decal is printed on "clear" decal paper, so all the white part comes out clear.  I painted a rectangle on the fence with cheap white acrylic craft paint before I applied the decal.

 

[jbinkley60]

I picked up some sheet styrene, some 1/4" I beam, some 1/4" C channel and other styrene.  I am going to sandwich some 1/8" hardboard (in 2.75" x 4" pieces) between sheet styrene and then framed with C channel and I beams.  I have sheet styrene with a pattern that will be on the layout side and smooth styrene on the side that can't be seen.  I think it will look Ok.  One thing I am thinking is how folks create the look of graffiti.  I've seen some pictures but don't know what folks use.

 

[Anonymous]

Something that I have not seen mentioned & might be worth consideration for such a long wall is covering thin styrene with the building paper sold by Micro Mark & other manufacturers as well.  It has an adhesive backing and can be had with several designs such as random cut stone, concrete block, red or yellow brick & several other varieties. This may prove to be the most "cost effective" approach.  I've used these on several buildings and they looked pretty good.  If you take your time you can make almost invisible seams between the pieces.  I do, however, use some additional adhesive such as Elmer's white glue to ensure that the paper stays put.  Tweet

[jbinkley60]

I plan to have I beams every 4" so seams won't be an issue.  I am thinking of Elmers glue to glue the styrene to the hardboard.  I cut the hardboard last night into blocks.  I should be able to cobble something together in the next few days to post a sample.

 

[Pruitt]

I have carved several walls directing into premixed lightweight dry wall seam cement. I put about 1/8" coat on top of scenery(plaster or foam). After about 2 hours you can carve it with a knife. It will stay carvable for a couple of days. I then paint it with artist's accrylics.

Hey Art!

That is one seriously gorgeous rock face! How about a little step-by-step tutorial thread on how you did it?

And the small retaining wall is no slouch, either...

[jbinkley60]

I picked up some sheet styrene, some 1/4" I beam, some 1/4" C channel and other styrene.  I am going to sandwich some 1/8" hardboard (in 2.75" x 4" pieces) between sheet styrene and then framed with C channel and I beams.  I have sheet styrene with a pattern that will be on the layout side and smooth styrene on the side that can't be seen.  I think it will look Ok.  One thing I am thinking is how folks create the look of graffiti.  I've seen some pictures but don't know what folks use.

Ok, here is my first attempt at a modern retaining wall built from scratch.  It is not painted yet.  it is 20" long by 3" tall.