Point to point layout question.

[Mailman56701]

I've read the arguments for this type of layout per realism, however, what is used to have the train return to it's starting point once it reaches the end of the layout ?

I.e., all the track plans I've seen, it would seem all the stock would have to be picked up, turned 180 degrees, and re-placed on the track.
I'd rather avoid that :)

[IRONROOSTER]

You use a turntable or a wye to turn the locomotive (although some diesels run either way), most cabooses and some passenger cars. Freight cars don't make a difference. You need at least one run around track to rearrange the train so the engine is on the front and the caboose is on the back. If you have the room and don't like the switching to turn the train you could use a reversing loop and have a loop to loop plan..

If you like running the trains more than switching, you probably should pick a different schematic.

Enjoy
Paul

[Mailman56701]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

You use a turntable or a wye to turn the locomotive (although some diesels run either way), most cabooses and some passenger cars. Freight cars don't make a difference. You need at least one run around track to rearrange the train so the engine is on the front and the caboose is on the back. If you have the room and don't like the switching to turn the train you could use a reversing loop and have a loop to loop plan..

If you like running the trains more than switching, you probably should pick a different schematic.

Enjoy
Paul

Thanks Paul, good info. **Newbie question alert** <cough> Um,.............what is a wye ? [:I]

[Anonymous]

If you are using diesel's a simple passing track would work the best to get your loco's back to front. A turntable with a passing track is the best to use for steam.

[MisterBeasley]

A wye is a triangle of track, with a turnout forming each angle. A track extends out from each angle, too. Think of the triangle as a schematic, of course, since real turnouts are curved. Anyway, a train comes into the triangle on one track and then goes out another. Then, it stops and backs up through the third track, and goes forward again, completing the triangle and exiting on the original track. If you draw it out, you'll see that the exiting train is reversed.

Yuck, that was clear as mud. Does anyone have a diagram or a picture?

[Anonymous]

Mailman, here's a picture of a wye. (Mister Beasly - a pic speaks a thousand words LOL). The only problem with them is they can be quite space consuming because your track branches must have enough length to accomodate the whole train or it won't be able to make the turns. Personally, I think a switching only layout would bore me to death but that's the beauty of model railroading - different strokes for different folks. Hope this helps.

[BR60103]

In most cases, all that needs to be rotated is the locomotive. Then it runs around to the other end of the train. If you use a caboose it has to be moved to the back.
Passenger trains may or may not have to be re-shuffled. If it's a small branch, the baggage cars may make the return journey at the back of the train and there won't be any cars that have to be turned. (If you run the Super Chief up your branch, you need more layout.)
Some locomotives may not even need to be turned. Tank engines were considered bidirectional and most diesels could run backwards easily (better if there were 2 units back-to-back.)
However, you can have all sorts of fun making your operation more complicated. sample: send a boxcar up the line that has to be unloaded from one side only. Run a piggyback flat where the trailer has to be pulled off at a ramp.

[tomikawaTT]

I've been operating an 'end of the branch' module, which is effectively one point of a point-to-point plan. Since there was no possible way to install a wye, I ended up with a small turntable. Interestingly, I have no need to turn locomotives (all tank locos, and all run with the smokebox uphill - the terminal is at the top of a 4% grade.) I have to turn single-ended brake vans and one passenger car.

Even a light-duty branch line will frequently run two hood units back to back, which eliminates all need for turning locomotives. (My diesels are all bi-directional center cabs, so they never need turning except to equalize flange wear.)

[MisterBeasley]

The Atlas turntable is only 9 inches across (10 if you count the support ring) so if your engines are small enough and you're only using it to turn them around, it takes up very little space. It's not a terribly prototypical-looking turntable, being a wood deck rather than a pit, but it is small and very cheap. The motorizing unit is also a bargain. Some modellers have bashed it into a pit turntable, since it has a good solid mechanism and the indexing works well. It's also DCC friendly.

Y'know, if Atlas made a pit model of this thing, they'd sell a gazillion of them.

[grayfox1119]

Another method to use for turn-around, would be to have a parallel track at the end of the runs, commonly referred to as a runaround track. I first noticed this being used in real life up on the Conway Scenic RR in New Hampshire. They have these tracks at Conway to the South and again way up at Fabyan Station beyond Crawfor Notch near Mt. Washington Hotel. They pull into the station, decouple the engine, run ahead to the switch, and back the F9 down to the switch at the other end, and re-couple to the cars at the station. Of course this works for Diesel, but you would need a small "Y" for a Steam Locomotive.

[Jetrock]

Many point-to-point model railroad plans intended for steam locomotives include turntables at either end, to turn the locomotive. Typically these plans don't include a roundhouse--they are just there to turn around the engine. In conjunction with a passing track, that's all you need to turn around the engine. With a diesel, all you need is a passing track.

For smaller shelf layouts, turning is pretty much redundant--the point is switching, not directional travel.

[Mailman56701]

Thanks for all the info. guys. I'm running diesels, but since they're all "cab forward", pushing from behind (after using a passing track, i.e.) doesn't seem an option.

Or, in the real world, is this done on mainlines ? I've seen it done in *yards*, with locos, not actual switchers.

But is it done for extended trips too ?

[fwright]

The Amtrak run from Oakland to California is strictly a push-pull arrangement - no turning whatsoever. The train is pushed by the locomotive in one direction, and pulled on the return trip. Only one end has a cab, too. Even in the steam era, lines like the CNJ did this with their suburban passenger runs.

Fred W

[Anonymous]

I am installing return loops on the ends of my point to point staging yards. I have found that having to handle the equipment leads to damage. This was not my original intention, but it is, in my opinion, for me, a must.

Mike in Tulsa
BNSF Cherokee Sub

[Jetrock]

Actually, fwright, the last car on the Amtrak "Capital Corridor" train has a cab at the end--during the "push" portion of the run eastward, the engineer is actually in the cab in the last car.

Pushing passenger cars like this generally isn't much trouble, because passenger trains are comparatively short--pushing long freight drags is much more fraught with danger, plus the fact that freight cars don't come with cabs at the back end.

There are a couple of solutions: one is to run your trains double-headed, with locomotives facing opposite directions--a so-called A-A configuration. This way, you have one loco facing each way, effectively a double-sized, double-headed locomotive.

The bottom line, though, is that locomotive choice is often driven by design considerations: if you have a pike with sharp curves, it behooves you to buy locomotives that can handle those curves. If you design a point-to-point with no turning facilities at the ends, it behooves you to buy locomotives that can run in either direction.

About switching, though: Remember, not all switching is done in yards! If you are dropping off cars at an industrial destination, far from any yard, you're still switching--which means you're often shoving cars. Normally this is done at slow speed with a brakeman watching the end of the train that the engineer can't see.

I run a point-to-point layout without turning facilities, but my locomotives are all fine pointed either way--44-ton diesels are center-cab designs, and my other locos--an S1, an SW7, and a GE 70-tonner--have cabs at one end but can see in both directions.

[Mailman56701]

Whew, finally got back to this thread, sorry.

I'm leaning towards the "two-engines butted up to each other" approach, with a run-around siding.

Am I correct in assuming, that to do this, one of the engines must be a dummy ?
I.e., you can't pull a powered engine backwards, when the lead engine is going forwards, right ?

[NeO6874]

that is true.. HOWEVER even if they are both powered, the locos will run correctly - because they're facing opposite directions one will be in 'reverse' and the other will be in 'forward' at the same time, because the polarity reaching the motors is backwards (comparatively from one loco to the other). this works for DC ONLY though - you'd have to MU them for DCC (though i don't know the specifics of that, as i dont have DCC)

[Jetrock]

Actually, NO, you can put two locos in tandem facing in opposite directions and they will both travel in the same direction. The locomotives should be identical (under the hood, at least) but yes, they will travel the same way facing opposite directions.

Remember--the polarity reaching the motor is backwards, but SO IS THE LOCOMOTIVE! So the two "backwards" things cancel each other out. Go out to your layout RIGHT NOW and try it--run a locomotive, turn it around using the ol' 0-5-0 switcher, and turn on the juice...it will go the same way it was going when you stopped it, NOT in the opposite direction.

With DCC, you can "slave" two locomotives together but I don't know the details...the plus is that you can slave two very different locos together, while with DC you want to use identical (under the hood, at least) locomotives. Lashing up your speed-demon diesel with, say, a Shay with a maximum speed of 20 MPH will have bad results...

[markpierce]

Another possible schematic is a point to point railroad with the terminals near each other and on similar elevations, with a connecting hidden (tunneled) track from the "backsides" of the terminals. So, it turns into an oval (or double oval if twice around the room.) I once had a railroad like this and it permitted continuous operation if I just wanted to see trains run. You could also turn the connecting track into staging, including multiple tracks.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

Actually, NO, you can put two locos in tandem facing in opposite directions and they will both travel in the same direction. The locomotives should be identical (under the hood, at least) but yes, they will travel the same way facing opposite directions.

Remember--the polarity reaching the motor is backwards, but SO IS THE LOCOMOTIVE! So the two "backwards" things cancel each other out. Go out to your layout RIGHT NOW and try it--run a locomotive, turn it around using the ol' 0-5-0 switcher, and turn on the juice...it will go the same way it was going when you stopped it, NOT in the opposite direction.

With DCC, you can "slave" two locomotives together but I don't know the details...the plus is that you can slave two very different locos together, while with DC you want to use identical (under the hood, at least) locomotives. Lashing up your speed-demon diesel with, say, a Shay with a maximum speed of 20 MPH will have bad results...

Thanks for the info, Jet. I was about to ask a similar question. Looks like I won't need too many dummy locos after all.

[Medina1128]

I get an assist from GOD. While the crew is sleeping, HIS hands come down from heaven and turns them around...