Wiring Peco electro/insulfrogs question

[jblackwelljr]

In finishing trackwork on my DCC HO practice layout, I ordered 3 more Peco insulfrog turnouts. They sent me 2 electrofrogs but I thought I’d keep them and deal with any wiring issues. I should be ready to do wiring this coming weekend. I’ve read all the wiring-for-DCC topics and threads, but if you haven’t lived this stuff yet, it’s a bit confusing.

I think things will make more sense as I start doing this, but right now I believe the only thing I have to worry about is insulating the diverging (exit) ends of the electrofrog turnouts because feeder wires beyond the turnout will cause a short. Do I have that right? I shouldn’t have to do this with the insulfrogs. For now, I’m planning on manual turnout control, so no wiring issues there.

I appreciate any advice - I really don’t want to fry a decoder or anything else.

[cacole]

The same thing happened to me recently -- I ordered Peco Insulfrog but received Electrofrog turnouts among them.

The documentation that is inside the Electrofrog turnouts, Figure 4, shows how to wire them. My testing with a VOM determined that the frog on the new DCC Friendly Electrofrog turnouts (Streamline 83) is totally isolated from the rest of the rail, which makes them almost identical to an Insulfrog except for the wire that is connected to the frog so it can be powered.

Your safest and most foolproof bet is to insulate both diverging rails regardless of the brand or type of turnout you're using, despite what the turnout's documentation may state to the contrary.

[jblackwelljr]

Wow - sure glad they don't make pacemakers.

[Anonymous]

This is an excellent topic and I have numerous questions:

1. Do you isolate the diverging rails at where the sections of track attaches to the turnout on the electrofrog turnout.?

2. I assume after you insulate the diverging rails on the electrofrog, you must attach feeders to the rails on both rails?

2. Also, in "DCC Made Easy by Lionel Strang, he says that the feeders for the electrofrog turnout are attached to the point end of the turnout. Is this true?

I have several peco insulfrog turnouts and now have heard that short locos will stall on them. The only remedy for this is to add clear fingernail poli***o the frog to increase the amount of insulation beyond what is already there. Can anyone clear this up?

I too have read everything and the whole topic is somewhat hazy until you actually fire the system up and see it work.

[cacole]

Larry,

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes; through a polarity-reversing switch attached to the turnout motor, such as the SPDT switch that is incorporated into a Tortoise switch machine, because the frog must be the same polarity as whichever point rail is in contact with a stock rail.

For the rest of your questions, I have never heard of needing to put nail polish on any Peco HO-scale turnout, whether Insulfrog or not. If the locomotive's wheels are properly spaced there should never be a short going through a Peco. Atlas, maybe; Shinohara, maybe; Peco, no.

The way the new Peco HO code 83 Electrofrog turnouts are made means that if you don't connect a feeder wire to the frog, you essentially wind up with an Insulfrog turnout, electrically.

Walthers/Shinohara's new "DCC Friendly" HO code 83 turnouts are now made significantly different than previous versions, and have an insulated frog similar to a Peco Insulfrog turnout.

[Jetrock]

I take it, then, that Insulfrog turnouts are better for DCC layouts than Electrofrog?

I ask because eventually I am probably going to go DCC, and every turnout on my layout is Electrofrog.

[Jacktal]

Both Insulfrog and Electrofrog TO's will work just the same with DCC or DC.The difference is that Electrofrog TO's need insulators at both legs of the frog to avoid shorts.Wether you elect to power the frogs or not is your option as not having them powered may only be annoying with very short locos,or locos that have poor electrical pick-up.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Larry Boyd
1. Do you isolate the diverging rails at where the sections of track attaches to the turnout on the electrofrog turnout.?

Depends upon the arrangement of where the turnout is placed. If the diverging track(s) off the turnout is(are) just going to a dead end spur there is no need for gaps.

QUOTE: 2. I assume after you insulate the diverging rails on the electrofrog, you must attach feeders to the rails on both rails?

No, just the rails off the frog. There is no need to gap or add feeders to the unbroken "outside" rails.

QUOTE: 3. The feeders for the electrofrog turnout are attached to the point end of the turnout. Is this true?

In a manner of speaking yes. Some people call this power routing. If the turnout is switched to the right, the right leg will have proper power. The opposite leg will have both rails with the same polarity.

QUOTE: I have several peco insulfrog turnouts and now have heard that short locos will stall on them. The only remedy for this is to add clear fingernail poli***o the frog to increase the amount of insulation beyond what is already there. Can anyone clear this up?

There are two issues here. The stalling is caused by the tiny piece of plastic that is the point. If there is only one wheel picking up electricity and it is on this piece of plactic then yes it could stall. That is different from the fingernail polish issue where I would say that locos will short and then stall on them. This is because the two diverging routes in the frog are so close together that some of the RP25 width wheels can jump the gap, or just get close enough to act as a capacitor and allow a DCC signal through. This is usually only on wheel sets that are slightly too wide. The fingernail polish extends the gap until the diverging rail pulls the wheel farther to the side clearing the gap.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock
I take it, then, that Insulfrog turnouts are better for DCC layouts than Electrofrog?

Better as in easier to wire - but this is also true with DC.

QUOTE: I ask because eventually I am probably going to go DCC, and every turnout on my layout is Electrofrog.

Shouldn't matter. If you already have all the gaps already set up for DC there is no reason the same setup shouldn't work for DCC. The real trick in either system is preventing the shorts.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jblackwelljr
I believe the only thing I have to worry about is insulating the diverging (exit) ends of the electrofrog turnouts because feeder wires beyond the turnout will cause a short. Do I have that right?

I guess I should answer the original question - right?
Yes you have it right, but you only have to insulate the two rails coming from the frog. If there are no feeder wires beyond the turnout and it is a stub siding the gaps aren't needed.

[jblackwelljr]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your input. I actually think I get it.....we'll see.

[Anonymous]

Yes, Thanks everyone for the excellent information. My layout contains all Peco insulfrog turnouts. I hope I made the right choice.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

QUOTE: I have several peco insulfrog turnouts and now have heard that short locos will stall on them. The only remedy for this is to add clear fingernail poli***o the frog to increase the amount of insulation beyond what is already there. Can anyone clear this up?

There are two issues here. The stalling is caused by the tiny piece of plastic that is the point. If there is only one wheel picking up electricity and it is on this piece of plactic then yes it could stall. That is different from the fingernail polish issue where I would say that locos will short and then stall on them. This is because the two diverging routes in the frog are so close together that some of the RP25 width wheels can jump the gap, or just get close enough to act as a capacitor and allow a DCC signal through. [/b]This is usually only on wheel sets that are slightly too wide. The fingernail polish extends the gap until the diverging rail pulls the wheel farther to the side clearing the gap.

Blind centre drivers on my Spectrum 2-10-0's cause shorts on the club insulfrogs. I'm about to find out wether the same thing happens with the Grizzly Northern's new 2-10-2 and its blind centre drivers.

We're going to try the fingernail poli***rick to see if this helps, otherwise we'll try cutting gaps to extend the dead frog rails.

[:)]

[Anonymous]

Which is better, cutting gaps or using insulated rail joiners? I will be running SW9's and Geeps.

[fwright]

Larry

Most folks I know prefer to cut gaps instead of using insulated rail joiners for the following reasons:

1) you don't have to plan your gaps in advance of laying the track - you obviously do for insulated rail joiners.

2) insulated rail joiners don't do as good a job as metal ones in holding rail in either vertical or horizontal alignment. Gaps can be cut where 2 adjoining ties help hold the rail in place.

3) gaps don't show up nearly as much as insulated rail joiners, particularly if you use a very thin cutoff disk or saw blade

4) gaps can be anywhere, not just between track sections

I can't think of any more reasons, but since I haven't use rail joiners of any kind in many years, I'm kind of partial to gaps. :-)

yours in gapping (or is that gaping?)
Fred W

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard
Blind centre drivers on my Spectrum 2-10-0's cause shorts on the club insulfrogs. I'm about to find out wether the same thing happens with the Grizzly Northern's new 2-10-2 and its blind centre drivers.

Ah, yes, makes perfect sense. The blind drivers would have lots of lateral play and no flange to keep it from moving further over the point rail than a normal wheel could. I'll have to add that to my book of "heads ups".

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fwright
Most folks I know prefer to cut gaps instead of using insulated rail joiners for the following reasons:
(good reasons ommitted)

Going one step further, if one does decide to use gaps it is best if the gap is filled in with styrene or some other insulator (glue it in place too). This prevents the rails from expanding or just shifting so that they "fill" the gap and touch again.

[BR60103]

Gaps vs. insulated joiners? depends on where it is. If you need a gap between the frog and the points, you'll have to cut a gap. Beyond the frog, insulated joiners.
Peco now provides little wire connections under the rails, with a tab of plastic above, so that you can isolate the frog without weakening the turnout.